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A Philly-Mets fight for Contreras?


beck72

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QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 03:43 AM)
Nobody knows.  That's why it's a rumor.  ;)

 

I do. He doesn't. Makes no sense for now or the future. Do you have faith in hamels or floyd? I don't... not anytime soon anyway... and i have a good feeling kenny williams doesn't.

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QUOTE(q\/\/3r+y @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 08:46 PM)
Only way dye is leaving chicago is via free agency. He is way too affordable and kenny williams knows it. No way he trades for for abreu and his albatross contract + a pitcher that is far from a sure thing in floyd or hamels. I want no part of floyd and hamels especially at this point.

Those are those my sentiments there. You don't just trade guy in Dye, who was one of our best hitters last season when he's signed to a very good deal for us, and put him in a trade with a #1 starter for another OF who may not be all that big of an upgrade in Abreu.

 

Although I'm just wondering if Philly added Aaron Fultz to the trade, a lefty who had a 2.24 ERA (and they just traded for Rhodes), then it suddenly becomes more interesting.

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Those are those my sentiments there. You don't just trade guy in Dye, who was one of our best hitters last season when he's signed to a very good deal for us, and put him in a trade with a #1 starter for another OF who may not be all that big of an upgrade in Abreu.

 

Although I'm just wondering if Philly added Aaron Fultz to the trade, a lefty who had a 2.24 ERA (and they just traded for Rhodes), then it suddenly becomes more interesting.

The Sox would have never even thought of making a deal like this in the past. But now they are spending a lot of money. I would love Abreu over Dye (no offense to Mr. MVP but Abreu is better) but I also like having McCarthy in the bullpen as an extra starter incase one of our starters gets hit by an injury. McCarthy strengthens the bullpen AND the rotation in that way.

 

By the way, Fultz isn't some good young lefty or anything. He's a 32 year old journeyman lefty who had one good season in his entire career... last year. He would probably be a throw-in in any trade the Phillies made. But I guess if Scott Eyre could get all that money from the Cubs for one good season, Fultz could have some trade value.

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QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 08:56 PM)
The Sox would have never even thought of making a deal like this in the past.  But now they are spending a lot of money.  I would love Abreu over Dye (no offense to Mr. MVP but Abreu is better) but I also like having McCarthy in the bullpen as an extra starter incase one of our starters gets hit by an injury.  McCarthy strengthens the bullpen AND the rotation in that way.

 

By the way, Fultz isn't some good young lefty or anything.  He's a 32 year old journeyman lefty who had one good season in his entire career...  last year.  He would probably be a throw-in in any trade the Phillies made.  But I guess if Scott Eyre could get all that money from the Cubs for one good season, Fultz could have some trade value.

On Fultz, if we're going to try and trade for a bullpen guy, we're not going to get a great lefty just like that, he's going to have some flaws. And there's just that many good lefties available at all, because they're really valuable. Fultz doing what he did in Citizens last season would have probably impressed quite a few teams.

 

Even with our payroll increasing, I don't think it really changes the fact that it's better to have a #1 starter and a good OF, for a very good OF and a SP prospect who's quite iffy at the moment. We shouldn't turn into the Yankees all of a sudden.

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On Fultz, if we're going to try and trade for a bullpen guy, we're not going to get a great lefty just like that, he's going to have some flaws. And there's just that many good lefties available at all, because they're really valuable. Fultz doing what he did in Citizens last season would have probably impressed quite a few teams.

 

Even with our payroll increasing, I don't think it really changes the fact that it's better to have a #1 starter and a good OF, for a very good OF and a SP prospect who's quite iffy at the moment. We shouldn't turn into the Yankees all of a sudden.

Good point. I'd damn sure take Fultz over any of the putrid lefty options we are going to see in ST. :D Fultz will earn $1.2 million in 2006.

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QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 04:09 AM)
Even with our payroll increasing, I don't think it really changes the fact that it's better to have a #1 starter and a good OF, for a very good OF and a SP prospect who's quite iffy at the moment. We shouldn't turn into the Yankees all of a sudden.

 

Of course everyone would take abreu over dye if there were no salaries involved... Abreu @ 13 million and dye @ 5? Dye plays s***ty defense and i do not care what aaron rowand says ( oh rowand and dye covered more ground than any others he played with blah blah blah...). Abreu is nothing special and i will never have a clue how he won it... winning the home run derby may have had something to do it, only thing i can think of. It is a no brainer to me at least.

 

Both are very good on the base paths with the edge of course going to abreu because of how good he is at stealing bases. Offensively dye will likely give you more power while abreu gives you very good obp. But like others have said abreu is worry some after his second half last season. He only out ops'd dye by .034 in an even bette hitters park than we have.

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Of course everyone would take abreu over dye if there were no salaries involved...  Abreu @ 13 million and dye @ 5? Dye plays s***ty defense and i do not care what aaron rowand says ( oh rowand and dye covered more ground than any others he played with blah blah blah...). Abreu is nothing special and i will never have a clue how he won it... winning the home run derby may have had something to do it, only thing i can think of. It is a no brainer to me at least.

Because the award is more about offense than defense. Lamest award in baseball.

 

Both are very good on the base paths with the edge of course going to abreu because of how good he is at stealing bases. Offensively dye will likely give you more power while abreu gives you very good obp. But like others have said abreu is worry some after his second half last season. He only out ops'd dye by .034 in an even bette hitters park than we have.

I knew Abreu could steal a lot of bases but I didn't know that he was pretty successful at it...

 

Abreu (career stats):

241 SB

78 CS

75.5% SB success rate

 

Abreu (2005 stats):

31 SB

9 CS

77.5% SB success rate

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No way this trade happens. As KW said, we will only trade the Count for more pitching not hitting (i.e. pitching has to be the main piece we are getting back...not Abreu). And on top of that we add in a club house leader who is inexpensive and solid...I don't think so.

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QUOTE(heirdog @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 08:16 AM)
No way this trade happens.  As KW said, we will only trade the Count for more pitching not hitting (i.e. pitching has to be the main piece we are getting back...not Abreu).  And on top of that we add in a club house leader who is inexpensive and solid...I don't think so.

yeah true, whatever KW says is gonna happen via trade usually happens

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No matter how much people like Jermaine Dye, be it for his offensive production or his great value...his value is at an all-time high right now. Coming off a .274 31 86 .333/.512/.845 season, a World Series MVP, along with an affordable option year next year...that is a great chip to trade.

 

That being said...I still don't think there's much substance to this trade - not at this point anyways. All we know is that KW's likes Abreu - whoop dee s***. And that he's basically come out and said he will only trade Jose Contreras is he gets an awesome deal(he has mentioned pitching, but at this point, I'm not sure how much I believe that).

 

On a hunch, I sort of get the feeling this is kind of a bargaining ploy to try and get Minaya to pay up more...perhaps by overpaying for Contreras and giving up perhaps Milledge and Heilman, which is a trade I think KW would have to make.

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QUOTE(Frank the Tank 35 @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 03:34 PM)
I agree... I think behind the scenes KW is pitting the Mets and Phils against one another.  I think there might be something to the Phils trade, but in the end, whoever gives up the most will "win."

 

I'm not sure I see him going to Philly at all though. It takes the Sox out of the position they are in right now, and allows them to make basically no move whatsoever at the deadline if a need were to arise. If, god forbid, a starter goes down, you are depending upon Tim Redding or whoever else you get from Philly in the trade to fill in for a while. The Sox could probably manage that way for a little bit, but in the long run would be hurt and it could very well be enough to cost them the division.

 

You make the Mets trade, and you have Heilman and McCarthy battle for the 5th spot in the rotation and with the "loser" moving to the pen to be a swing man type, doing whatever you need him to do. You have also cut salary, have starters locked up for quite some time, and replaced Young in the minors with Milledge.

 

I'll just say that if Contreras ends up in Philadelphia, I'll be surprised as hell.

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QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 03:44 PM)
I'm not sure I see him going to Philly at all though.  It takes the Sox out of the position they are in right now, and allows them to make basically no move whatsoever at the deadline if a need were to arise.  If, god forbid, a starter goes down, you are depending upon Tim Redding or whoever else you get from Philly in the trade to fill in for a while.  The Sox could probably manage that way for a little bit, but in the long run would be hurt and it could very well be enough to cost them the division. 

 

You make the Mets trade, and you have Heilman and McCarthy battle for the 5th spot in the rotation and with the "loser" moving to the pen to be a swing man type, doing whatever you need him to do.  You have also cut salary, have starters locked up for quite some time, and replaced Young in the minors with Milledge. 

 

I'll just say that if Contreras ends up in Philadelphia, I'll be surprised as hell.

 

Really? Not even in a deal for Madson? Everyone has their own ideas when it comes to the necessity of a 6th starter in the minors. I think it would definitely be a luxury but not an absolute necessity. I do find it difficult to see JC reeling in Heilman and Milledge. I mean Heilman alone could put up pretty good numbers as a starter, then to add Milledge, a necessity for a Manny trade... I dunno. It would have to be something like JC is seconds away from being traded to the Phils, and Minaya feels like he absolutely could not let that happen, so he forces a trade like this. Even if nothing happens at all, all these trade rumors have given me something engaging to do during the offseason.... and for that, thank you mlbtraderumors.com :D

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QUOTE(Frank the Tank 35 @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 09:57 PM)
Really?  Not even in a deal for Madson?  Everyone has their own ideas when it comes to the necessity of a 6th starter in the minors.  I think it would definitely be a luxury but not an absolute necessity.  I do find it difficult to see JC reeling in Heilman and Milledge.  I mean Heilman alone could put up pretty good numbers as a starter, then to add Milledge, a necessity for a Manny trade... I dunno.  It would have to be something like JC is seconds away from being traded to the Phils, and Minaya feels like he absolutely could not let that happen, so he forces a trade like this.  Even if nothing happens at all, all these trade rumors have given me something engaging to do during the offseason.... and for that, thank you mlbtraderumors.com  :D

 

I think that's the only scenario the sox do make a deal--that a team overpays. If any situation would be ripe is one team wants to prevent another team in its division from landing a top player, esp a SP [the sox might have done that with Thome, keeping him from Clev. to an extent]. Seeing how Gillick from the Phils already has said their team is a 90 win team at best right now, and other teams are stronger [ie, the Mets, Braves] getting the Phils to overpay may be the best bet.

 

But if the Mets want to overpay, by all means.....

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QUOTE(Frank the Tank 35 @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 03:57 PM)
Really?  Not even in a deal for Madson?  Everyone has their own ideas when it comes to the necessity of a 6th starter in the minors.  I think it would definitely be a luxury but not an absolute necessity.  I do find it difficult to see JC reeling in Heilman and Milledge.  I mean Heilman alone could put up pretty good numbers as a starter, then to add Milledge, a necessity for a Manny trade... I dunno.  It would have to be something like JC is seconds away from being traded to the Phils, and Minaya feels like he absolutely could not let that happen, so he forces a trade like this.  Even if nothing happens at all, all these trade rumors have given me something engaging to do during the offseason.... and for that, thank you mlbtraderumors.com  :D

 

Any deal with Philly almost has to include Abreu. While I love Abreu as a player, he's not a $15 mill a year player, and never has been. That's what his contract calls for.

 

If Minaya truly feels that Contreras is a necessity, then you almost have to be looking at Contreras...and perhaps a reliever...for Milledge and Heilman. This is exactly what Flash was talking about when he was talking about KW trading from a position of strength to team that is in need and getting a ton of talent in return. The Indians essentially got a top 10 prospect for a good, but not outstanding Coco Crisp...if Minaya feels that another starter is a huge need for the Mets, KW has to be looking at getting a great return in the deal.

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QUOTE(knightni @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 07:11 PM)
Holy Frijoles!

 

Gotta love that 10 ERA by Floyd and that high contract by Abreu.

Oh wait...

Gotta love that .176 average for Brian Anderson too..

 

Oh wait... I forgot about small sample sizes.

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QUOTE(Felix @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 06:16 PM)
Gotta love that .176 average for Brian Anderson too..

 

Oh wait... I forgot about small sample sizes.

So if this trade went through, the Sox would still have Anderson and his .176 average, and Floyd and his 10.00 era. I know Floyd has some potential, being the 4th overall pick in his draft and all, but the guy had an ERA over 6.00 in AAA last year, and he walks the world. I hope to God this is just a rumor. Abreu is great, but if this went through, it would more than likely leave KW will no financial flexibility for this season and next, and may be the beginning of the end for Mark Buerhle in Chicago.

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QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 07:20 PM)
So if this trade went through, the Sox would still have Anderson and his .176 average, and Floyd and his 10.00 era. I know Floyd has some potential, being the 4th overall pick in his draft and all, but the guy had an ERA over 6.00 in AAA last year, and he walks the world. I hope to God this is just a rumor. Abreu is great, but if this went through, it would more than likely leave KW will no financial flexibility for this season and next, and may be the beginning of the end for Mark Buerhle in Chicago.

I'm not saying this is a great trade for the team, but I think its pretty foolish to judge a player on his first few innings pitching in the majors.

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