Illini make another appeal for Illiniwek

[RockRaines]

I have a couple of problems with this whole thing. One, the NCAA decided to put this rule in and it really only affects one school in Division IA. Several other schools won their appeals (can't remember who, the only one of note is FSU), but the Illini have been unsuccessful so far based mostly on the fact that there aren't any Illini left to gripe and/or buy off. Tribe approval isn't really the greatest criterion to use for whether or not it is okay.

I can see where people that are against the Chief are coming from, but I just don't really think that it's that big a deal, and it kind of sucks that Illinois seems to be being singled out.

Well, there are two errors in your argument.

 

1. The peoria tribe are direct decendant from the illini and they have expressed their desire to rid the school of chief illiniwek, I posted the link to their letter in my previous post. They have ordered a cease and decist to U of I on the use of the Chief.

 

2. If you consider being "singled out" being one of 17 schools who faced removing Native American Imagery, then yes they have been. I also listed several schools that have been forced to change more than just their halftime performer, but their actual mascot as well.

[Rowand44]

My thoughts on this whole thing: Some people are just way to sensitive.

[RockRaines]

My thoughts on this whole thing:  Some people are just way to sensitive.

Maybe some people just arent sensitive enough to other people's cultures?

[Rowand44]

Maybe some people just arent sensitive enough to other people's cultures?

It's a dance, rock, that is all. It's not like they're coming out and saying "This is part of the Illini culture, so watch this if you want to learn how to become part of this tribe" It's a dance at halftime, that is all. I don't see why people get so worked up over it but whatever.

[RockRaines]

It's a dance, rock, that is all.  It's not like they're coming out and saying "This is part of the Illini culture, so watch this if you want to learn how to become part of this tribe"  It's a dance at halftime, that is all.  I don't see why people get so worked up over it but whatever.

They are representing it as a part of their culture as deemed by the dress, the name, and the ritual. Its like if you are catholic and they have a halftime show mocking communion and such. It doesnt offend me, but it DOES offend them.

[illinilaw08]

Alright, here are my two cents. I grew up an Illinois fan, I love the school and I love the Chief, but I understand that part of this is because I am removed from the heritage that the Chief offends. I will accept the fact that th Chief is offensive to a minority group that has, quite frankly, been shat on in this country. However, I do not think that anyone should minimize the impact the Chief has had on many graduates of the University of Illinois. It brings chills to me everytime the Chief stands at halfcourt or midfield and people in the stands sing the Alma Mater. But like I said, I understand why others are bothered by this and why the Chief is going to go. It just is not a black and white issue to the university because there is a lot of donor money at stake here.

 

As far as the Seminole-Illini argument goes, I took a Native American history class as an undergrad here, and I raised the issue in class of the Seminole tribe. The answer I received was that the majority of Native American groups do find the Seminole mascot offensive and want it to be retired. All these groups hands are tied however because the Seminole tribe does not have an issue with it ($$$ playing a major factor there).

[ZoomSlowik]

Well, there are two errors in your argument.

 

2.  If you consider being "singled out" being one of 17 schools who faced removing Native American Imagery, then yes they have been.  I also listed several schools that have been forced to change more than just their halftime performer, but their actual mascot as well.

 

The schools that you previously listed were not "forced" to change their mascot. There was no ruling from the NCAA or any other body saying that they had to do it, and to the best of my knowledge there was no court ruling saying that either. They chose to do it and felt that it was the best move. That's their decision. The Illni on the other hand can't host post-season tournaments or bring the Cheif with them to the postseason because of this. That costs Illinois money because they host several major tournaments in lesser sports. There is outside pressure being put on the Illini, while that wasn't the case with schools like Stanford.

 

How many of that original list of teams that were being ruled against won appeals? I know there were several. As I said, Illinois is now the only Division 1A school that this rule still affects. Schools like Florida State can take things at their leisure. There are a few other Division 1AA schools that it still affects, but obviously no one cares about that.

[RockRaines]

How many of that original list of teams that were being ruled against won appeals? I know there were several. As I said, Illinois is now the only Division 1A school that this rule still affects. Schools like Florida State can take things at their leisure. There are a few other Division 1AA schools that it still affects, but obviously no one cares about that.

Utah, North Dakota, Central Michigan to name a few.

[LauraJ14]

Maybe some people just arent sensitive enough to other people's cultures?

 

 

I am an alum and by wiping away all of the Native American symbols, to me its basically saying that your traditions and culture aren't important enough to anyone. Lets just pretend that this never existed or mattered.

At least with the Chief, I got to learn about important pieces of the tradition and history. The Chief doesn't go on the road anyways and is not shown on TV so what harm is it doing?

I think that the NCAA should spend its time and energy dealing with graduation rates of students and the illegal money flowing into University's due to athletics.

[RockRaines]

I am an alum and by wiping away all of the Native American symbols,  to me its basically saying that your traditions and culture aren't important enough to anyone.  Lets just pretend that this never existed or mattered.

 

Whose traditions? The sports teams? Which culture dates back further, illinois football, or the indigenous tribes that inhabited the area.

[CanOfCorn]

Racism, in many forms, is subjective. What one person thinks is racist, another may not. Little Black Sambo with his big lips and huge smile doesn't represent African-American people. Chief Wahoo doesn't represent Native American people. The Fighting Irish mascot doesn't represent Irish people. University of Illinois' Chief is not a mascot, but a symbol of what the State of Illinois once was before all of us were here.

 

This is my major issue. Even if we keep the name Illini and lose the Chief, then the Illini Tribes are dead. The only remaining tribe left are the Peoria, and they are in Oklahoma. What if the University donated money and resources to them? Would that make a difference? And if it does, then they don't have anything to say about it being hostile and abusive.

 

Here's an interesting take from George Will:

 

...In 1995 the Office of Civil Rights in President Bill Clinton's Education Department, a nest of sensitivity-mongers, rejected the claim that the Chief and the name Fighting Illini created for anyone a "hostile environment" on campus.

 

In 2002 Sports Illustrated published a poll of 351 Native Americans, 217 living on reservations, 134 living off. Eighty-one percent said high school and college teams should not stop using Indian nicknames.

 

This is not the NCAA's job. This is a University issue. And if one of the numerous groups want to sue them in court, then fine. If the courts decide the Chief must go, then I, as an alum, respect that. But if the courts decide for the University, then move on to greater things like the Washington Redskins, Atlanta Braves and their Tomahawk Chop, and the Cleveland Indians.

 

One more interesting thing from George Will:

 

The NCAA is allowing Florida State University and the University of Utah to continue calling their teams Seminoles and Utes, respectively, because those two tribes approve of the tradition. The Saginaw Chippewa tribe starchily denounces any "outside entity" -- that would be you, NCAA -- that would disrupt the tribe's "rich relationship" with Central Michigan University and its teams, the Chippewas. The University of North Carolina at Pembroke can continue calling its teams the Braves. Bravery is a virtue, so perhaps the 21 percent of the school's students who are Native Americans consider the name a compliment.

 

Who decides what is hostile and abusive, Rock?

[RockRaines]

Who decides what is hostile and abusive, Rock?

Well, you can keep using FSU as a case study over and over. But since the direct decendents of the Illini have opposed and filed a cease and decist regarding the chief, I find it an irrelevant argument.

 

I understand the anger from alums, and my school had our name taken away from us, and I was furious, because it was part of my tradition as well. But the negative aspects of the mascot is offensive to their lineage and culture, and that was more important than game day dances, t-shirt, and logos.

Edited February 2, 2006 by RockRaines

[CanOfCorn]

Well, you can keep using FSU as a case study over and over.  But since the direct decendents of the Illini have opposed and filed a cease and decist regarding the chief, I find it an irrelevant argument.

 

I understand the anger from alums, and my school had our name taken away from us, and I was furious, because it was part of my tradition as well.  But the negative aspects of the mascot is offensive to their lineage and culture, and that was more important than game day dances, t-shirt, and logos.

 

The University no longer uses the Chief on any school sponsored t-shirts or logos. Only bootlegged items are sold with the Chief on them.

 

It's not that I'm using FSU or Central Michigan or Utah as an example. But, just because the tribes say "ok" doesn't mean it's not "hostile and abusive." Or vice versa. What I'm saying is, if it's hostile and abusive here, it's hostile and abusive everywhere. And the "ok" shouldn't be the deciding factor. What scares me is that this will start a slippery slope.

 

America is about being able to say what you want, but it's not about a group of people protesting and something changes. And that's the expectations are beginning to be. If I complain loud enough, they'll change it. Well, that may be the case, but, I think it's getting to the point where EVERYONE thinks they are right and EVERYONE wants their issues to be resolved.

[J-MAN]

I am an alum and by wiping away all of the Native American symbols,  to me its basically saying that your traditions and culture aren't important enough to anyone.  Lets just pretend that this never existed or mattered.

At least with the Chief,  I got to learn about important pieces of the tradition and history.    The Chief doesn't go on the road anyways and is not shown on TV so what harm is it doing?   

I think that the NCAA should spend its time and energy dealing with graduation rates of students and the illegal money flowing into University's due to athletics.

Finally the voice of reason!!!!!

 

My thoughts exactly!!!!

 

(For the record I did not go to Illinois!!!)

[J-MAN]

The University no longer uses the Chief on any school sponsored t-shirts or logos.  Only bootlegged items are sold with the Chief on them.

 

It's not that I'm using FSU or Central Michigan or Utah as an example.  But, just because the tribes say "ok" doesn't mean it's not "hostile and abusive."  Or vice versa.  What I'm saying is, if it's hostile and abusive here, it's hostile and abusive everywhere.  And the "ok" shouldn't be the deciding factor.  What scares me is that this will start a slippery slope.

 

America is about being able to say what you want, but it's not about a group of people protesting and something changes.  And that's the expectations are beginning to be.  If I complain loud enough, they'll change it.  Well, that may be the case, but, I think it's getting to the point where EVERYONE thinks they are right and EVERYONE wants their issues to be resolved.

Amen!

[RockRaines]

The University no longer uses the Chief on any school sponsored t-shirts or logos.  Only bootlegged items are sold with the Chief on them.

 

It's not that I'm using FSU or Central Michigan or Utah as an example.  But, just because the tribes say "ok" doesn't mean it's not "hostile and abusive."  Or vice versa.  What I'm saying is, if it's hostile and abusive here, it's hostile and abusive everywhere.  And the "ok" shouldn't be the deciding factor.  What scares me is that this will start a slippery slope.

 

I think you are confused about the issue at hand. Its the chief and not the name of the school. The tribes of those schools said its ok to use their name as the mascot. The issue at hand is the degrading chief constume, imagery and the halftime dance.

[thedoctor]

as a u of i grad, i tied none of my great memories and great times at illinois to the chief. to me, if you are an alum and are going to withhold your support for the university because it had to change it's mascot, that's just sad.

 

i went to illinois for a great education, and i am satisfied i received it. the chief part of it was irrelevant to me, just like i'm sure an animal would be irrelevant to me if that's what our mascot was.

 

i understand traditions and such, but losing the chief will change nothing about the university. it won't change how classes are taught, what faculty are brought into the school, or the level of education you can get there. that is what is really important, not whether or not some guy does a dance at halftime of a football game.

[RockRaines]

as a u of i grad, i tied none of my great memories and great times at illinois to the chief. to me, if you are an alum and are going to withhold your support for the university because it had to change it's mascot, that's just sad.

 

i went to illinois for a great education, and i am satisfied i received it. the chief part of it was irrelevant to me, just like i'm sure an animal would be irrelevant to me if that's what our mascot was.

 

i understand traditions and such, but losing the chief will change nothing about the university. it won't change how classes are taught, what faculty are brought into the school, or the level of education you can get there. that is what is really important, not whether or not some guy does a dance at halftime of a football game.

Great post Doc. Those are my sentiments exactly after having my own school change our mascot. Illinois isnt even changing their name or anything. I had to adjust to the damn RedHawks. But I will tell you this, as much as my parents, relative, and older alums miss the Redskin name, the new generations have picked up on the new mascot and are beginning new traditions. My school was founded in 1809, and tradition is rich. But the insignificance of a football or basketball mascot is extremely apparent in the big picture.

[thedoctor]

Great post Doc.  Those are my sentiments exactly after having my own school change our mascot.  Illinois isnt even changing their name or anything.  I had to adjust to the damn RedHawks.  But I will tell you this, as much as my parents, relative, and older alums miss the Redskin name, the new generations have picked up on the new mascot and are beginning new traditions.  My school was founded in 1809, and tradition is rich.  But the insignificance of a football or basketball mascot is extremely apparent in the big picture.

 

thanks. you make excellent points as well.

 

the thing i think has happened is that this argument has just become a way for some people to express their support or lack of support for political correctness. the argument isn't really about the chief, the chief has just become a vehicle for people to express themselves one way or another. this is a good thing, imo. intelligent discourse is always a plus.

 

the problem is, people have gotten so wrapped up in their own dogma (and this is on both sides) that they've lost sight of what is most important at a university - education. i wish people would be this passionate about the university curriculum or the way the university funds programs instead of getting caught up in a debate that is relatively meaningless in the big picture.

[CanOfCorn]

I think you are confused about the issue at hand.  Its the chief and not the name of the school.  The tribes of those schools said its ok to use their name as the mascot.  The issue at hand is the degrading chief constume, imagery and the halftime dance.

 

I'm not confused at all. I totally understand. First of all, the University calls the Chief "a symbol" not "a mascot."

 

And doc, I know what you are saying about the academics of the school. You are absolutely right, a change would mean nothing in regards to the learning or research at the school. And my fondest memories of the U of I aren't the Chief. But, it was a part of it. I didn't miss a football game in 4 years. Everytime the Chief came out, all of us cheered as loud as we could and I would get goosebumps, in fact, I still do. Then, as we sang the Alma Mater, we (the students and alumni and anyone else that was there) were all one. It wasn't the Chief. It wasn't the games. It was being there with friends and the college experience all together. And the Chief is a big part of that experience. It's hard for people to let that go. Rock, since you didn't go there, it's hard for you to truly say what that feels like.

 

Maybe you think it's a silly tradition, or hostile, or abusive, or racist, or whatever, but I fondly remember the Chief as a way to bring everyone at the U of I together for 5 minutes, no matter color, race, creed, anything. When we were all cheering at halftime, we were all Illini.

 

EDIT: Doc, college is about more than academics...it's about the experience, as well. It's about a bridge from K-12 to real life. It's about learning to learn. College is bigger than academics...if it wasn't, then sports wouldn't be such a big deal. Or the Greek System. Or all of the clubs.

Edited February 3, 2006 by CanOfCorn

[thedoctor]

I'm not confused at all.  I totally understand.  First of all, the University calls the Chief "a symbol" not "a mascot." 

 

And doc, I know what you are saying about the academics of the school.  You are absolutely right, a change would mean nothing in regards to the learning or research at the school.  And my fondest memories of the U of I aren't the Chief.  But, it was a part of it.  I didn't miss a football game in 4 years.  Everytime the Chief came out, all of us cheered as loud as we could and I would get goosebumps, in fact, I still do.  Then, as we sang the Alma Mater, we (the students and alumni and anyone else that was there) were all one.  It wasn't the Chief.  It wasn't the games.  It was being there with friends and the college experience all together.  And the Chief is a big part of that experience.  It's hard for people to let that go.  Rock, since you didn't go there, it's hard for you to truly say what that feels like.

 

Maybe you think it's a silly tradition, or hostile, or abusive, or racist, or whatever, but I fondly remember the Chief as a way to bring everyone at the U of I together for 5 minutes, no matter color, race, creed, anything.  When we were all cheering at halftime, we were all Illini.

 

can, i respect your view. i had many friends who loved the chief and did tie significance to him. for myself, i just never made that connection, but i still felt like i was an illini and a part of something bigger. that's just me tho.

[RockRaines]

I'm not confused at all.  I totally understand.  First of all, the University calls the Chief "a symbol" not "a mascot." 

 

And doc, I know what you are saying about the academics of the school.  You are absolutely right, a change would mean nothing in regards to the learning or research at the school.  And my fondest memories of the U of I aren't the Chief.  But, it was a part of it.  I didn't miss a football game in 4 years.  Everytime the Chief came out, all of us cheered as loud as we could and I would get goosebumps, in fact, I still do.  Then, as we sang the Alma Mater, we (the students and alumni and anyone else that was there) were all one.  It wasn't the Chief.  It wasn't the games.  It was being there with friends and the college experience all together.  And the Chief is a big part of that experience.  It's hard for people to let that go.  Rock, since you didn't go there, it's hard for you to truly say what that feels like.

 

Maybe you think it's a silly tradition, or hostile, or abusive, or racist, or whatever, but I fondly remember the Chief as a way to bring everyone at the U of I together for 5 minutes, no matter color, race, creed, anything.  When we were all cheering at halftime, we were all Illini.

 

 

I understand that I did not go there, but I shared the same experience of losing my mascot. Whether its symbol, whatever, it still if offensive to someone. I understand tht you have personal connection to it, but weigh what you said. You are saying that the chief was a large part of the crowd's connection, or the game day spirit of football. Is that really more important than someone else's culture? Do you think your college experience would have been just as rich without a dancing Indian during halftime? I believe it would have, and going forward, I do not even think that many incoming students will miss a beat.

[CanOfCorn]

I understand that I did not go there, but I shared the same experience of losing my mascot.  Whether its symbol, whatever, it still if offensive to someone.  I understand tht you have personal connection to it, but weigh what you said.  You are saying that the chief was a large part of the crowd's connection, or the game day spirit of football.  Is that really more important than someone else's culture?  Do you think your college experience would have been just as rich without a dancing Indian during halftime?  I believe it would have, and going forward, I do not even think that many incoming students will miss a beat.

 

I understand what you are saying about the crowd's connection, and no, it isn't as important as someone else's culture. But, I believe that Illinois did they best they can to represent a culture that really doesn't exist anymore. Yes, there are the Peoria, but they are a pretty distant relative and are doing pretty well with their ventures. For all intents and purposes, the Illini Tribe is extinct. If the University does away with the Chief, I believe that it's one of the final nails in the coffin.

 

And again, if it's hostile and abusive to one, then, whether or not the tribe gives the ok, it's hostile and abusive to all.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I still say the actual people that the symbol represents should clearly have more say than those alumni and students who have some sort of fondness towards it.