State of the Union Thread

[Texsox]

There is no such thing as a perfect government program but I think you can look elsewhere and find far worse in the way of fraud and abuse.

Example:

 

I was in my accounting class earlier this evening and my professor once worked as an auditor for Medicaid in NY State.  He told us a time he investigated a doctor who had billed Medicaid for 1 million dollars worth of care he did not provide.  This doctor was caught and was allowed to get by paying 5000 a month in restitution to the government.  After 2 months he left the state of NY and was never heard from again.

 

This is 1 doctor doing this. 

 

Our socialist entitlement programs waste more money in a week than the DOD probably wastes all year.

 

Based on the size of the budgets, I assume you are discussing percentages, we spend a lot of money on the biggest of socialist programs, our military.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Based on the size of the budgets, I assume you are discussing percentages, we spend a lot of money on the biggest of socialist programs, our military.

 

 

 

The military is not a social program.

[southsideirish71]

Who is paying those taxes?

 

Show me how $1 cut becomes more than $1 paid in taxes later. Plus the $1 not taken in, and added to the debt, increases.

 

 

Its not a one to one black and white issue. Its called investment and return. I get a tax break which means that I can create a job where I wouldnt be able if I was taking that money and using it for taxes. The salary on those jobs are taxed. The product I make with those workers are sold and are taxed. Those inviduals are given benefits and a salary which means that the government is not paying for those services. Maybe I dont have to outsource my companys jobs to a foreign country. After all this, my company makes a profit where I can grow and create more jobs and more revenue. These are all extreme examples. But it seems our economy started to grow when the tax cuts were initiated. Rates, money introduced, and other methods didnt work to invigorate our economy. After the tax cuts our economy got better.

Edited February 1, 2006 by southsideirish71

[Texsox]

How about you first show me how tax cuts are so bad when revenue is increasing.

We have a defecit because government cant control its spending.

 

Part 2, we agree. Sadly, neither party agrees with us.

 

Revenues are up, but so is debt. The best example is I give you a $1,000 raise and you spend $2000 on your Visa celebrating. What we have discovered is if the Government runs a trillion dollar deficit, half a trillion increases in revenue. That still isn't good long term for our government.

 

We make fun of the French, complain they wouldn't back us in Iraq, then borrow billions from them. Same with China and half the s*** holes around the globe. Guess who is financing our debt? It isn't just US citizens and companies buying Savings bonds.

 

It is so surreal that Republicans no longer care about balanced budgets. Borrowing trillions doesn't faze them. The Dems have never been all that great in that area. That is my #1 fear, no one in Washington cares how far in debt the US goes and they ave convinced the public it doesn't matter.

[kevin57]

I thought the speech was a good one. Bush seemed relaxed and measured, but determined and concrete about some good and realistic goals. I give it an "A-"

[Texsox]

This just in from my buddy Howard

 

Dear Friend,

 

Remember this? "The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

 

Those are George Bush's famous 16 words from his 2003 State of the Union address, delivered less than two months before he sent troops into war in Iraq.

 

They were false. Three years later Americans are still demanding answers on the manipulation of intelligence by an administration eager to start a war.

 

Americans have a lot of questions that went unanswered tonight. When George Bush delivered his State of the Union address, he had a big megaphone and the world's attention. He had the opportunity to regain some degree of credibility with the American people -- more than half of whom disapprove of his performance as president. But he failed to answer the real questions ordinary Americans have about the state of our union:

 

# When will we have a new strategy in Iraq that protects American lives? Violence is increasing, not decreasing there and the mismanagement of this war has cost the lives of Americans and billions of dollars in fraud. And when will we secure our ports and chemical and nuclear plants, which remain vulnerable?

 

# When will the Republican Party put its responsibility to the people before its greed and thirst for power? The Republican culture of corruption in the executive and legislative branches has violated the law and cost taxpayers billions.

 

# When will President Bush and the Republican Congress wake up to the economic crisis tens of millions of Americans face? Good jobs are leaving this country, and many of the jobs that remain exploit working families by denying them adequate benefits. Millionaires and corporations receive tax breaks while Americans can't afford to save, and the gap between rich and poor continues to widen to levels unseen since the 19th century.

 

# When will we finally do something for the 46 million Americans who lack health insurance? Many have had their lives ruined financially when the worst happened, and many more no longer seek the care they need because they cannot afford it.

 

# When will we make serious strides towards energy independence? We get a greater percentage of our oil from cartels and dictatorships now than we did in 2000.

 

# When will he take steps to further ensure retirement security for every American? Growing old with dignity is a right, not a privilege, and dismantling Social Security in favor of private accounts is the wrong direction for our society.

 

If Bush and the Republicans would bother to answer these questions, the answers would be simple. But they won't answer.

 

That's because the answer to each and every one is "Never." Never as long as they control our government, never as long as they can execute the same incompetent, dishonest and destructive government without paying a price at the ballot box. The answer will be "never" until we grow the operation and build the infrastructure to beat them.

 

Part of that means telling people clearly and unambiguously what we stand for -- and I'll tell you right now:

 

# Real security -- we will protect Americans at home by getting serious about homeland security, and address the real threats abroad by capturing or killing Osama bin Laden and focusing on actual (not imagined) nuclear proliferation. We will be prepared for the threats of tomorrow, and we will always tell the truth to our troops and the American people.

 

# Honest leadership and open government -- we will end the criminal Republican culture of corruption and restore a sense of responsibility to elected office, and we will pass fundamental reforms that make government more honest, open, and accountable to the American people than ever before.

 

# Economic prosperity and educational excellence -- we will keep good jobs from leaving and ensure that every job in America is a fair deal. We will balance the budget, ensure that the tax code is simple and fair, and invest in education to ensure that every American has an equal opportunity to succeed.

 

# A health care system that works for everyone -- we will join every other industrialized country by making sure everyone has access to affordable health care. We will change a corrupt, inefficient system into one that makes sure the world's wealthiest country is also the healthiest.

 

# Energy independence -- we will reduce our reliance on foreign oil by investing in cleaner and more efficient technology. We will treat energy independence as what it is -- not only a conservation issue, but an economic and national security issue.

 

# Retirement security -- we will strengthen Social Security and make sure that a retirement with dignity is the right and expectation of every single American.

 

Tonight and tomorrow, Republicans will be out in full force, spinning, distracting, distorting and dividing. But don't be fooled. You know what you heard in Bush's speech -- and you know the reality.

 

When Republicans hurl insults and lies, we must be ready to stand up and speak the truth in response -- and to make sure our friends and neighbors are not afraid to do the same.

 

Please take the time to write a letter to the editor about what's wrong with the Republican priorities -- and what we'll do to put America on the right track:

 

http://www.democrats.org/sotu/rapidresponse

 

We cannot sit back and let them attack us. And we cannot sit back and let them attack the values and ideals we hold dear.

 

That's why we are investing millions of dollars and countless volunteer hours to build the Democratic Party everywhere. We're building a year-round, 50-state party capable of winning elections for every level of office.

 

Building our party everywhere isn't only about electing more Democrats. It's about bringing people back into the political process and ensuring that we have at least one political party representative of, and responsible to, the people.

 

These are not short-term investments, and we are not there yet. But we will only create lasting change if every single one of us takes responsibility for speaking out and organizing in our local community.

 

Over the next ten months, that's exactly what we're going to do.

 

Thank you.

 

Governor Howard Dean, M.D.

[samclemens]

Its not a one to one black and white issue.  Its called investment and return.  I get a tax break which means that I can create a job where I wouldnt be able if I was taking that money and using it for taxes.  The salary on those jobs are taxed.  The product I make with those workers are sold and are taxed.  Those inviduals are given benefits and a salary which means that the government is not paying for those services.  Maybe I dont have to outsource my companys jobs to a foreign country.  These are all extreme examples.  But it seems our economy started to grow when the tax cuts were initiated.  Rates, money introduced, and other methods didnt work to invigorate our economy.  After the tax cuts our economy got better.

 

on point. taxes need to be lowered. i live in MI and we currently have the most stagnated economy in the entire county. the cause is the large amount of taxes due to democrat control of the state government.

 

my only hope is that jennifer granholm loses. considering her opponent, devos will probably win simply because granholm doesnt do a damn thing.

 

anyway, i thought bush did a great job on the speech. very nice. then i saw that new gov. from VA jump on with a response and i turned that s*** off, i'll go to bed on a happy, constructive note tonight, not a pessimistic, no solution, high-taxing note.

[southsideirish71]

This just in from my buddy Howard

 

 

Energy independence -- we will reduce our reliance on foreign oil by investing in cleaner and more efficient technology. We will treat energy independence as what it is -- not only a conservation issue, but an economic and national security issue.

 

But if you disturb Rudolph the rednose reindeer we will protest. And you cant build or use nuclear power, and we dont want you to burn coal because it will hurt the environment. Solar Power, some wind, and if we give up technology and go back to the days were peopled lived to be the ripe old age of 35 we will be set.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

on point. taxes need to be lowered. i live in MI and we currently have the most stagnated economy in the entire county. the cause is the large amount of taxes due to democrat control of the state government.

 

my only hope is that jennifer granholm loses. considering her opponent, devos will probably win simply because granholm doesnt do a damn thing.

 

anyway, i thought bush did a great job on the speech. very nice. then i saw that new gov. from VA jump on with a response and i turned that s*** off, i'll go to bed on a happy, constructive note tonight, not a pessimistic, no solution, high-taxing note.

Pessimistic, no solution, etc. -- good of you to comment on s*** YOU DIDN'T SEE.

 

And Nuke, one can be for cutting bloat in the military budget to put it to more appropriate uses (i.e. body armor) instead of paying Halliburton for moving empty boxes, price gouging, paying for food that they didn't provide, etc.

[Texsox]

Its not a one to one black and white issue.  Its called investment and return.  I get a tax break which means that I can create a job where I wouldnt be able if I was taking that money and using it for taxes.  The salary on those jobs are taxed.  The product I make with those workers are sold and are taxed.  Those inviduals are given benefits and a salary which means that the government is not paying for those services.  Maybe I dont have to outsource my companys jobs to a foreign country.  After all this, my company makes a profit where I can grow and create more jobs and more revenue.  These are all extreme examples.  But it seems our economy started to grow when the tax cuts were initiated.  Rates, money introduced, and other methods didnt work to invigorate our economy.  After the tax cuts our economy got better.

 

So in order for that to happen, the US needs to go in debt. Are you at all worried that our economy can't grow without huge national debts? When will the debt be too big? If we don't continue the deficits, the economy will fail, according to your examples.

 

While we are paying interest in the $1 debt

 

Owner get's a $1 tax cut and buys a machine replacing a worker. Oops didn't think about that possibility. Owner get's a $1 rebate and heads to China to expand his business. Even if he gives a worker a raise with that $1, that still only returns $.20. It will never become more than $1, while the interest mounts.

 

What has happened is they have bought your vote with money they borrow from foreign banks.

[samclemens]

tex in response to your dean post...

 

i didnt even read the whole thing, but notice that dean b****es about social security not being solved. who were the obstructionists, who were open to no negotiation there? dean is kinda over the top. does anyone have a dean scream link? the solutions he offers are so empty (at least for the energy dependance point he givess some kind of indication about HOW the goal is going to be accomplished) and typical fatcat.

 

are the dems here honestly satisfied with dean running the dem party? seems like hes running towards the ground

[Texsox]

on point. taxes need to be lowered. i live in MI and we currently have the most stagnated economy in the entire county. the cause is the large amount of taxes due to democrat control of the state government.

 

my only hope is that jennifer granholm loses. considering her opponent, devos will probably win simply because granholm doesnt do a damn thing.

 

anyway, i thought bush did a great job on the speech. very nice. then i saw that new gov. from VA jump on with a response and i turned that s*** off, i'll go to bed on a happy, constructive note tonight, not a pessimistic, no solution, high-taxing note.

Sam, not to pick on you, I appologize after reading this, but this is what our government has conditioned us to.

Notice not a mention that spending needs to be lowered. The government needs to go into debt and give me more money. The Republicans will borrow money and give it to me. Talk about socialist programs.

[Texsox]

From Drudgereport.com

 

Cindy's crime? Wearing an anti-war t-shirt

 

Schneider said Sheehan had worn a T-shirt with an anti-war slogan to the speech and covered it up until she took her seat. Police warned her that such displays were not allowed, but she did not respond, the spokeswoman said.

[Rex Hudler]

Part 2, we agree. Sadly, neither party agrees with us.

 

Revenues are up, but so is debt. The best example is I give you a $1,000 raise and you spend $2000 on your Visa celebrating. What we have discovered is if the Government runs a trillion dollar deficit, half a trillion increases in revenue. That still isn't good long term for our government.

 

We make fun of the French, complain they wouldn't back us in Iraq, then borrow billions from them. Same with China and half the s*** holes around the globe. Guess who is financing our debt? It isn't just US citizens and companies buying Savings bonds.

 

It is so surreal that Republicans no longer care about balanced budgets. Borrowing trillions doesn't faze them. The Dems have never been all that great in that area. That is my #1 fear, no one in Washington cares how far in debt the US goes and they ave convinced the public it doesn't matter.

 

I hate getting into political discussions but I am going to jump in and ask for opinions. Let me preface this by saying I have a basic understanding of economics and government, but I am not one to debate its finer points. So I will up front say, please do not try to call me out, rather help educate me.

 

My question to you Tex is this... Why does it matter? The federal government is not like an individual's household budget. Why should I or anyone else care if the government is billions in "debt"? Does that debet actually ever get paid off? If the budget is balanced, does it really have any effect on my life or yours? Do you really think a government like ours carrying a large debt will actually cause its economy to fail? We have thrived in times with huge debts.

 

I had an economics professor in college that stated matter of factly that the National Debt didn't mean a hill of beans. I can't argue that he is correct, but I can ask the questions. I'd be interested in yours and others thoughts.

 

Gracias amigo!

[southsideirish71]

From Drudgereport.com

 

Cindy's crime? Wearing an anti-war t-shirt

 

She can wear that at the local McDonalds, but not at the State of the Union. Her 15 minutes are up.

[SSH2005]

Typical GOP, let's not pay for anything, run up huge debts to foreign banks, and pretend that someone else will come in and pay for it. We are giving it to Iraq (a non-producer) care to stop that huge expense?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why should the money of hard workers in this country be taken away and given to the non-producers?

 

What was with that Rock-esque eyebrow from Tim Kaine?  If you smelllllllllll what Tim Kaine is cookin'!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I noticed that as well. Pretty funny.

 

So if someone works their ass off, makes sacrifices to become successful they should be boned because they got ahead.  Lets penalize you for being successful.  You make more money you can afford it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

From Drudgereport.com

 

Cindy's crime? Wearing an anti-war t-shirt

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's against the rules. They had every right to detain her. She was invited to the speech to be an observer, not make her own personal message. They released her while the speech was still ongoing.

Edited February 1, 2006 by SSH2005

[kapkomet]

He better be, he's probably gonna be on the short list for VP candidates in 08.

 

Oh and to Kap, if you were listening, he was producing ideas, solutions, plans. More than I've heard from the average  opposition response in a decade of paying attention.

I just got home - I was out tonight and missed it all. I tivo'd it though so I'll watch it later this week.

[Cerbaho-WG]

But if you disturb Rudolph the rednose reindeer we will protest.  And you cant build or use nuclear power, and we dont want you to burn coal because it will hurt the environment.    Solar Power, some wind, and if we give up technology and go back to the days were peopled lived to be the ripe old age of 35 we will be set.

 

Oh, ignorance, how I don't miss you so.

 

You do know that the amount of oil in ANWR is roughly 14 billion barrels of oil.

You do know that the this amount of oil is totally miniscule in comparison to what we consume yearly and what we import.

You do know that there is a guaranteed amount of roughly 180 billion barrels of oil shale in canada.

You do know that a conservative amount of oil shale in Canada is about two trillion barrels.

 

Now please, argue that we need to drill in ANWR again, please.

[Balta1701]

Interesting flash poll from CBS. 700 Watchers approved of the speech 77-23. However only 32 percent of those watchers thought that those goals would be accomplished.

The numbers in the SOTU flash polls are always like that...mainly because the "SOTU speech watchers" is a VERY biased sample set. Last year...the same numbers came up...over 70% approval of the speech among watchers. Bush's average approval rating among the non-watchers last year? About 45%...and that was before his polls went into the toilet. The people who like him watch. The people who don't like hiim don't watch.

[Cerbaho-WG]

Why should the money of hard workers in this country be taken away and given to the non-producers?

 

It's against the rules.  They had every right to detain her.  She was invited to the speech to be an observer, not make her own personal message.  They released her while the speech was still ongoing.

 

Have you ever heard of a progressive income tax? Where the hell do you think most of the government's revenue comes from? Perhaps it's taxing the upper echelon of the tax bracket?

 

And don't even start me on the stupid horses*** of supply side economics and the trickle down effect. Every rational person knows why this may offset inflation in the short term, it causes unemployment (hello Phillips curve), a decrease in the ability for government to spend money (GDP component) and increases the amount of debt which is begging to blow up in our faces.

[Balta1701]

I hate getting into political discussions but I am going to jump in and ask for opinions.  Let me preface this by saying I have a basic understanding of economics and government, but I am not one to debate its finer points.  So I will up front say, please do not try to call me out, rather help educate me.

 

My question to you Tex is this...    Why does it matter?  The federal government is not like an individual's household budget.  Why should I or anyone else care if the government is billions in "debt"?  Does that debet actually ever get paid off?  If the budget is balanced, does it really have any effect on my life or yours?  Do you really think a government like ours carrying a large debt will actually cause its economy to fail?  We have thrived in times with huge debts. 

 

I had an economics professor in college that stated matter of factly that the National Debt didn't mean a hill of beans.  I can't argue that he is correct, but I can ask the questions.  I'd be interested in yours and others thoughts.

The national debt matters for multiple reasons.

 

First and foremost, the national debt matters because the national debt is like a credit card. Every dollar you spend that you can't pay for today costs you much more than $1 in the future, because you have to pay interest on that dollar. When you're shopping around, if you're a wise fiscal planner...what items do you buy on credit? Probably a car, a house, and maybe an occasional appliance. Do you go and blow your entire credit limit at Macy's? No, of course not. Why not? Because the only reason why a smart financial planner would spend money on credit is if it was something he or she would not be able to pay for with cash, and which he cannot make any choice about having (i.e. You can't live in a box, and if you rent a place you build up no equity, etc.)

 

Secondly, the national debt is also important in that it is capable of driving inflation. Basically, what the government is doing when it increases the debt is pumping out money. It is pumping money into the economy with a guarantee of repaying it at some point. But that always raises the possibility, as happened in the 70's...that you'll pump too much cash into the economy, thus driving down the value of your currency and leading, in the end, to that nasty "Stagflation" cycle where prices of goods drop but consumers don't buy because they expect the prices to drop farther relative to the inflating dollar, etc. Lots more theory behind that than i can explain in 1 paragraph.

 

Third, the debt is a security risk. Right now, a significant number of our dollars are held by foreign banks and creditors, such as our good friends in China and the Arab oil-countries. This has happened because those nations have had extra money to invest, and have been willing to prop up the U.S. economy by buying U.S. treasury dollars. First, there is no guarantee that at somem point, they will not cut back their willingness to purchase those T-bills (thus forcing the Fed to raise interest rates to prevent inflation), or in the event of a political dispute...decide to sell some of them and actually do severe damage to the U.S. economy by deflating the dollar. Thus far this hasn't happened...but we're gambling an awful lot on the willingness of the Chinese to continue buying those T-bills right now.

 

Oh, and 1 more...the debt is stupid especially right now because we can see large expenses on the horizon...Social Security and Medicare expenses related to the baby-boom retirement. This would be like having a balloon payment on your mortgage coming up, but again, deciding to max out your credit card the month beforehand. Yes, you can get through, but if something goes wrong (i.e. an oil price spike or terror attack) suddenly you're caught being unable to pay either, and you're literally bankrupt.

[Balta1701]

Some things of note based on reading the speech:

 

Ok, so the President wants to protect us from animal/human hybrids? Something tells me we shouldnt' be letting this man watch Spiderman movies.

 

Whoever wrote this line is going to be fired:

Congress did not act last year on my proposal to save Social Security

(Insert loud applause by Democrats)

[Balta1701]

2,245 Dead — How Many More??

 

That's what Cindy Sheehan's T-shirt said. The picture above shows the response in the Capitol tonight. To very loosely paraphrase Norma Desmond, the shirt is clean, it's the government that's obscene.

 

Did you know that in 1971, the Supreme Court said it was unconstitutional to arrest a man who wore a "F--- the Draft" T-shirt into the courthouse? (Cohen v. California, you can look it up.) So now Alito's on the court for 45 minutes and your civil liberties are already going down the toilet. You were warned.

(Posted mainly because I thought it was funny)

[jackie hayes]

I hate getting into political discussions but I am going to jump in and ask for opinions.  Let me preface this by saying I have a basic understanding of economics and government, but I am not one to debate its finer points.  So I will up front say, please do not try to call me out, rather help educate me.

 

My question to you Tex is this...    Why does it matter?  The federal government is not like an individual's household budget.  Why should I or anyone else care if the government is billions in "debt"?  Does that debet actually ever get paid off?  If the budget is balanced, does it really have any effect on my life or yours?  Do you really think a government like ours carrying a large debt will actually cause its economy to fail?  We have thrived in times with huge debts. 

 

I had an economics professor in college that stated matter of factly that the National Debt didn't mean a hill of beans.  I can't argue that he is correct, but I can ask the questions.  I'd be interested in yours and others thoughts.

 

Gracias amigo!

There is this idea that deficits don't matter, basically using the following argument: the government spends by selling bonds to people who get taxed later to pay for the bonds. The bonds (wealth) and the taxes (liabilities) cancel each other out, so the debt's irrelevant.

 

Noone takes this literally, though. First of all, a lot of the debt is being financed overseas, by those who won't get taxed. So the government spending is truly making individual Americans poorer.

 

Also, increasing the debt (many believe) increases the interest rate (by "crowding out" private investment). Which leads to lower investment, leading to lower production in the long term.

 

Whether or not the government will actually pay it back -- If the government didn't, why would anyone buy it? Not that we'll pay it off, but we'll pay off each bond issued. (I really hope, anyway.)

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Oh, ignorance, how I don't miss you so.

 

You do know that the amount of oil in ANWR is roughly 14 billion barrels of oil.

You do know that the this amount of oil is totally miniscule in comparison to what we consume yearly and what we import.

You do know that there is a guaranteed amount of roughly 180 billion barrels of oil shale in canada.

You do know that a conservative amount of oil shale in Canada is about two trillion barrels.

 

Now please, argue that we need to drill in ANWR again, please.

 

 

You display enough of your own ignorance with your post here. Despite the cost of transporting oil from ANWR its still far and away more expensive to extract oil from oil shale.

Edited February 1, 2006 by NUKE_CLEVELAND