White House knew NOLA levees broke

[NorthSideSox72]

Oh yeah, and the weather report has never been wrong, that's a weak example.

 

Brown's out at FEMA, that's what your advocating. I agree with it. Now, if these same mistakes are made again I'm gonna be pissed. Kinda "Fool me once..."

 

I disagree that "the entire country" saw what was going to happen. Hindsight is great, isn't it?

 

This is not hindsight - I saw it ahead of time, and I recall discussing it with others. There were about a dozen different computer-projected tracks on one map I saw while the thing was still well into the Gulf, and they were all within a relatively short distance of NO. I remember thinking, they're gonna get slammed. Those tracks may not be perfect, but when you see all the models at once, you get an idea of the track within a very high degree of accuracy.

 

Anyway, are you guys watching this? Brown is already getting s***ty and hasn't been being questioned that long. 

 

Yeah, I put a link in for it. He started off with some pontification of sorts, about process and control. Now he's foundering.

[Texsox]

I am sittng here wondering how much time and money should have been spent on the possibility that NO would take a direct hit, and the levees would break, and this and that. While we have an unlimted budget to destroy and rebuild Iraq, we don't have an unlimited budget to mobilize thousands of people and tons of equipment on a worse case scenario.

 

All that has to be balanced in the response. Can you imagine the headlines $67,000,000 spent on diaster that never came. What a waste of our tax dollars.

[CanOfCorn]

I am sittng here wondering how much time and money should have been spent on the possibility that NO would take a direct hit, and the levees would break, and this and that. While we have an unlimted budget to destroy and rebuild Iraq, we don't have an unlimited budget to mobilize thousands of people and tons of equipment on a worse case scenario.

 

All that has to be balanced in the response. Can you imagine the headlines $67,000,000 spent on diaster that never came. What a waste of our tax dollars.

 

I'm not saying they should have had the entire Louisiana and Mississippi and Texas and Alabama National Guards sitting and waiting in full gear...but I am saying they should have one first response team ready. One. Call in one battalion. That's what they are there for, isn't it? And if something does happen, then those teams are doing what they can and the rest should be called up within 24 hours...or as many as they can within 24 hours.

 

I know what you are saying, but personally, and I may be alone in this, but if my president/governor/mayor says to me, "Yes, we did spend a lot of money, but I would rather be proactive than reactive." That would make me happy and wouldn't lead to this he said/she said crap that we are dealing with now.

 

I see it as...Spend some money now, save lots of money later.

[NorthSideSox72]

I am sittng here wondering how much time and money should have been spent on the possibility that NO would take a direct hit, and the levees would break, and this and that. While we have an unlimted budget to destroy and rebuild Iraq, we don't have an unlimited budget to mobilize thousands of people and tons of equipment on a worse case scenario.

 

All that has to be balanced in the response. Can you imagine the headlines $67,000,000 spent on diaster that never came. What a waste of our tax dollars.

 

Let's see. Projections indicated a 95%+ chance that a C4 or C5 hurricance would hit the Gulf Coast, probably at or near New Orleans. They didn't know for sure the exact point of coastal contact, but the otherwise knew to a very high degree of certainty what would happen.

 

If we can't spend 67M on that, then this country has its priorities out of order.

[Balta1701]

I am sittng here wondering how much time and money should have been spent on the possibility that NO would take a direct hit, and the levees would break, and this and that. While we have an unlimted budget to destroy and rebuild Iraq, we don't have an unlimited budget to mobilize thousands of people and tons of equipment on a worse case scenario.

 

All that has to be balanced in the response. Can you imagine the headlines $67,000,000 spent on diaster that never came. What a waste of our tax dollars.

First of all...I don't think I've seen any estimate which says that making the NO Levees structurally sound enough to take the surge from a Cat 5 would have cost $67 billion. A couple billion yes, but not that number.

 

Secondly, this is the real cost/benefit analysis question. It's almost guaranteed that every city on the Gulf Coast will suffer at least a glancing blow from a major hurricane once every 100 years or so...maybe less as the planet warms up and we wind up with more major storms. When you have something that is a virtual guarantee to happen at some point, it's just not wise to ignore it.

 

California is actually a fairly good comparison. This state knows that both the L.A. and San Fran areas at some point in the next 100 years are going to have to cope with a magnitude 7-8 earthquake at least once, along with several smaller events. And in San Fran's case, it will be a direct hit on the city. When you know for a fact it is going to happen...you can't just gamble that it won't happen soon. This state is actually going to be in real trouble if one hits in the next 20 years, since most of the retrofit projects started after '89 and '94 are projected to take another 10-20 years. The Golden Gate Bridge may very well go down, for example, if one hits tomorrow. And there would probably be massive levee breaches out here too, up in a river delta in the north.

 

When you simply know that something is going to happen...you just have to spend the money. There's no way around it.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm not saying they should have had the entire Louisiana and Mississippi and Texas and Alabama National Guards sitting and waiting in full gear...but I am saying they should have one first response team ready.  One.  Call in one battalion.  That's what they are there for, isn't it?  And if something does happen, then those teams are doing what they can and the rest should be called up within 24 hours...or as many as they can within 24 hours. 

 

I know what you are saying, but personally, and I may be alone in this, but if my president/governor/mayor says to me, "Yes, we did spend a lot of money, but I would rather be proactive than reactive."  That would make me happy and wouldn't lead to this he said/she said crap that we are dealing with now. 

 

I see it as...Spend some money now, save lots of money later.

 

Exactly. Its not as if we were deploying to California because some translator of Nostradamus said it would happen - this was a high probability event, at a known location. No good reason not to be prepared for it.

[CanOfCorn]

Exactly.  Its not as if we were deploying to California because some translator of Nostradamus said it would happen - this was a high probability event, at a known location.  No good reason not to be prepared for it.

 

And furthermore...why are we so prepared to go to another country, any country, and fight a war (good or bad) and we can't be prepared in our own backyard? That's the question I have. Just because this battle was against nature and we were sure to lose, doesn't mean we can't be prepared for it.

[mreye]

And furthermore...why are we so prepared to go to another country, any country, and fight a war (good or bad) and we can't be prepared in our own backyard?  That's the question I have.  Just because this battle was against nature and we were sure to lose, doesn't mean we can't be prepared for it.

It took many many months to go to Iraq. We didn't go in overnight. Plus, we're in Iraq being "proactive instead of reactive." Isn't that what you want? Isn't that what will make you happy? Or is that only when it comes to bashing Bush?

[Texsox]

First of all...I don't think I've seen any estimate which says that making the NO Levees structurally sound enough to take the surge from a Cat 5 would have cost $67 billion.  A couple billion yes, but not that number.

 

Sorry, I should have been clearer, It's 67 million and that was a guess on mobilizing resources to get people out of harms way, secure the city, etc.

[Balta1701]

Sorry, I should have been clearer, It's 67 million and that was a guess on mobilizing resources to get people out of harms way, secure the city, etc.

Man am I stupid.

[Texsox]

Man am I stupid.

 

Your point was still valid. If these levees were in Bagdad, we'd probably already have Haliburton fixing them after we'd bombed the hell out of them. I do have an American me first mentality with this rebuilding. IMHO if we need to bomb someone, we needed to bomb them, we should not be paying to rebuild it, especially with all the damn oil money they have. Spend that money fixing stuff at home first.

 

BTW, does that make me a conservative?

[jackie hayes]

If this had been a well off city, or area, that got hit, you would have seen relief come much faster. And btw, I don't find that to be a Republican or Democrat thing, it just seems to be the way we've traditionally acted as a country sadly.

I attribute this to our deep sprirtuality. As the Bible says, "ye have the poor always with you." In other words, don't worry about them, they aren't in danger. They'll come out okay. But Croecus needs you!

[YASNY]

I still think the first response shoulds be at the local and state level. They have resources in place to do the job. You know, like all those parked school buses.

[CanOfCorn]

It took many many months to go to Iraq. We didn't go in overnight. Plus, we're in Iraq being "proactive instead of reactive." Isn't that what you want? Isn't that what will make you happy? Or is that only when it comes to bashing Bush?

 

But we sure were prepared for it. That's my point. Not condemning Bush. This country is getting so that if someone needs help other than people in our own country, we're ready to jump at the chance. It seems we are always more prepared to help elsewhere than for disasters at home.

 

PS...Notice, I never said Bush or Iraq in my statement.

Edited February 10, 2006 by CanOfCorn

[Texsox]

I still think the first response shoulds be at the local and state level.  They have resources in place to do the job.  You know, like all those parked school buses.

 

How about command and control from the feds, sending state and local resources? I know that has problems but it would avoid a switch in command and control later when the s*** is really hitting the fan.

 

It avoids turf battles, maybe.

[YASNY]

How about command and control from the feds, sending state and local resources? I know that has problems but it would avoid a switch in command and control later when the s*** is really hitting the fan.

 

It avoids turf battles, maybe.

 

The state and locals have to be willing to give up command and control.

[NorthSideSox72]

The state and locals have to be willing to give up command and control.

 

Not the case. The federal government has the ability to control any disaster response (if it chooses), for the same reasons they can control any civil disturbance. When the news was breaking about the nasty response, there were some people stating that Feds couldn't go in there, but they can, if its declared a catastrophic disaster, triggering the federal response control plan:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/02/01/katrina.w...?section=cnn_us

 

But no one made that declaration, even after the fact. Chertoff could have, or anyone above him. Brown could have done it in the old layout, and in the current DHS world, could have asked Chertoff to do so.

 

And before that point, federal aid and assets can always be mobilized and respond - they just can't command state assets without the declaration.

 

So, its still a federal screw up. They could have (and should have with the obvious signs) declared a disaster, and they could have responded independently even without that.

[Mplssoxfan]

The state and locals have to be willing to give up command and control.

For the NOPD, there was no command and control.

 

The mayor, the governor, FEMA, and even the President f'ed up on this. They are all to blame. That's what bugs me...each group is pushing blame when instead they should all stand together and realize...we all f***ed up, we admit it, and now, we are going to fix it...TOGETHER!!!

 

Absolutely. Everyone is to blame. If this happened in Japan, the resignations would have been overwhelming. All the folks involved here are just trying to figure out the most creative way to cover their own sorry asses.

[minors]

Not the case.  The federal government has the ability to control any disaster response (if it chooses), for the same reasons they can control any civil disturbance.  When the news was breaking about the nasty response, there were some people stating that Feds couldn't go in there, but they can, if its declared a catastrophic disaster, triggering the federal response control plan:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/02/01/katrina.w...?section=cnn_us

 

But no one made that declaration, even after the fact.  Chertoff could have, or anyone above him.  Brown could have done it in the old layout, and in the current DHS world, could have asked Chertoff to do so.

 

And before that point, federal aid and assets can always be mobilized and respond - they just can't command state assets without the declaration.

 

So, its still a federal screw up.  They could have (and should have with the obvious signs) declared a disaster, and they could have responded independently even without that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The feds should hold some reasonability but most of it should fall on Blanco and Nagin.

[WilliamTell]

The feds should hold some reasonability but most of it should fall on Blanco and Nagin.

 

Yep, I'm not saying the Federal level shouldn't help, but obviously the State and Local goverenments need to most responsible for getting help as soon as possible.

Edited February 11, 2006 by WilliamTell

[YASNY]

Yep, I'm not saying the Federal level shouldn't help, but obviously the State and Local goverenments need to most responsible for getting help as soon as possible.

 

Thank you. That's what I've been trying to say. The Feds, of course, have to shoulder their share of the blame. However, it seems like Blanco and Nagin are getting a free pass on this, when the ball started in their court.

[NorthSideSox72]

Thank you.  That's what I've been trying to say.  The Feds, of course, have to shoulder their share of the blame.  However, it seems like Blanco and Nagin are getting a free pass on this, when the ball started in their court.

 

Look, of course Nagin and Blanco and their EM agents deserve a lot of blame. So do those NO cops who took off (but then, who wouldn't have, for 18k/year).

 

But why are people here not understanding the idea that this was not a local incident? Incident control has to be granted to the authority that has control over the necessary assets - thats a pillar of EM. Since this effected 3 or more states and hundreds of local municipalities, this could not possibly be coordinated by state and locals. That would be horribly inefficient, and the result would have been more deaths. This was a regional disaster, and required national response. Did anyone notice that this went way beyond New Orleans???

 

You guys can try to deflect blame from the Feds all you want, but this was clearly a federal screw-up above all other levels of government. FEMA needs re-tooling (starting with getting out of DHS and setting up a system where they can self-declare a disaster), Brown needs to be fired (done), and people need to question Bush's bizarre choices for posts in his administration.

[Rex Kickass]

Thank you.  That's what I've been trying to say.  The Feds, of course, have to shoulder their share of the blame.  However, it seems like Blanco and Nagin are getting a free pass on this, when the ball started in their court.

Blanco and Nagin won't get a free pass. They don't stand a chance at re-election.

 

And there's a paper trail from Blanco asking FEMA and the Feds for assistance days before the hurricane by the way. I won't say she's blameless - but she did some things. Not enough, but some things.

[YASNY]

Look, of course Nagin and Blanco and their EM agents deserve a lot of blame.  So do those NO cops who took off (but then, who wouldn't have, for 18k/year).

 

But why are people here not understanding the idea that this was not a local incident?  Incident control has to be granted to the authority that has control over the necessary assets - thats a pillar of EM.  Since this effected 3 or more states and hundreds of local municipalities, this could not possibly be coordinated by state and locals.  That would be horribly inefficient, and the result would have been more deaths.  This was a regional disaster, and required national response.  Did anyone notice that this went way beyond New Orleans???

 

You guys can try to deflect blame from the Feds all you want, but this was clearly a federal screw-up above all other levels of government.  FEMA needs re-tooling (starting with getting out of DHS and setting up a system where they can self-declare a disaster), Brown needs to be fired (done), and people need to question Bush's bizarre choices for posts in his administration.

 

Why are people not understand the concept of first response? Did anyone notice that 'beyond New Orleans' was handled pretty damn well in Alabama and Mississippi? Yes, handled quite well on a state and local level.

[minors]

Why are people not understand the concept of first response?  Did anyone notice that 'beyond New Orleans' was handled pretty damn well in Alabama and Mississippi?  Yes, handled quite well on a state and local level.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Exactly