A true Patriot

[SoxFan562004]

OK, this might just be a tangent that is coming out of nowhere on this thread, but I have a REAL hard time with anyone involved in the Clinton administration talking about human rights, protecting citizens, etc. because of the whole administrations handling of the Rawanda genocide.

 

Now I know it is specifically and technically the U.N.'s fault, but the administration really dragged their feet and refused to agree to a lot of what the U.N. General wanted to do before it happened. Things like making their spokespeople say "genocide acts" and not "genocide".

 

IMO the administration has gotten a free pass in this situation and it sickens me when they wank around acting like they're the greatest defender of freedom and human rights

 

rant over

Edited February 15, 2006 by SoxFan562004

[Balta1701]

What a pile of conjecture and bulls***.  Was this authored by the Gitmo Hippy release foundation or the Stop the War foundation.  So in summary it states that most of the people in Gitmo are not terrorists or the worst of the worst, just people in the wrong place at the wrong time.  GMAFB.  So we are just rounding up all these people for what, a f***ing zoo near castro.  Come on now.

Dude, just go read the articles before you try to bash the conclusions, would you?

[Controlled Chaos]

Dude, just go read the articles before you try to bash the conclusions, would you?

 

You're the one who spun this thread into things about Gitmo to steer away from Gore....

[southsideirish71]

Dude, just go read the articles before you try to bash the conclusions, would you?

 

 

I read the article. I loved the ads that had James Carville in it, and the ALCU. Just as you would objectively take content from a source that has ads from Rush Limbaugh and the NRA.

 

IMO me your source is as objective as a blogger from the democratic national party web site.

[Rex Kickass]

God forbid someone should talk about the message rather than the messenger.

 

Girls, you're both pretty.

[Balta1701]

Hmph, there certainly are some differences in the way the AP is presenting Gore's speech and the way other sources are doing so. (This one from the "Arab News")

 

Focused reasoning and intense dialogue that invites a full and courageous examination of the issues that our world is facing is the most important characteristic that helps to bridge East-West divisions. This was the view expressed yesterday by former US Vice President Al Gore during his speech at the 7th Jeddah Economic Forum.

 

"The 21st century has to be a century of renewal, and our ability to overcome these kinds of cycles of disrespect and violence is the key to making it a century of renewal," he said, alluding, like many other speakers at the forum, to the recent controversy that erupted over caricatures of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

 

Al Gore was speaking during a well-attended session last night at the Hilton Hotel. Gore shared the stage with Malaysia's former Deputy Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim.

 

"I truly believe that in this century the Middle East can once again play a leadership role in brining enlightenment and knowledge and a commitment to tolerance," Gore said.

 

Regarding the bad image and treatment facing Saudi nationals and Muslims by America after the tragic events of September 11, 2001, he said that he and his Democratic Party colleagues have opposed illegal detentions of Arabs in the United States.

 

"Unfortunately there have been terrible abuses and it's wrong. That does not represent the feelings of the majority of Americans," said Gore, adding that there are people even in the current Republican administration that have worked to protect the human and civil rights guaranteed in the US Constitution, and to expose abuses that have occurred following the 9-11 attacks.

 

He criticized the thoughtless manner in which visas for Arabs are now handled.

 

"It's the worst possible thing we could do, to cut off the channels of friendship and mutual understanding between Saudi Arabia and America," he said, pointing out that one of the main objectives of terrorists was to create a wedge in relations. "We must not fall into that trap."

 

Concerning the Arab-Israeli conflict, Gore stated clearly that the US will not abandon its commitments to Israel, but tempered this with what he believes is a sincere effort by the US to find a resolution that will bring peace and prosperity to the Palestinian people.

 

Regarding the blasphemous illustrations that were published in European papers and elsewhere, Gore pointed out that the reaction toward the cartoons by the vast majority of Muslims has been extremely thoughtful and peaceful.

 

Those few that reacted with violence caused other papers to re-publish the cartoons. As the violent reactions grew, it raised a debate in the US media on whether to publish the cartoons or not. Some in the US have made an arguable case that not publishing the cartoons prevented people in the US from seeing the source of the violence, therefore not getting the full story. The violent reaction actually may have helped to compel newspapers not to blatantly insult, but rather simply to show the source of the outrage.

 

Gore conceded this point by saying the violent reactions of a handful of Muslims actually helped to propagate the blasphemous images, especially on the Internet. In this regard, "the conflict can propagate itself," he said. Regarding job development, Gore said that the Kingdom does not need mega-projects to solve unemployment issues; on the contrary, the country needs millions of micro-projects.

 

For his part, Ibrahim said the problem in the East-West chasm exists due to ignorance and a lack of mutual respect. He said the cartoon controversy destroys bridges of communication between cultures.

 

He added that the United States has to play a major role in closing the East-West gap.

[G&T]

Hmph, there certainly are some differences in the way the AP is presenting Gore's speech and the way other sources are doing so.  (This one from the "Arab News")

 

Yes, the Arab news does seem to enjoy American's ripping on their own government. I don't see the point.

[KipWellsFan]

Former Vice President Al Gore told a mainly Saudi audience on Sunday that the U.S. government committed "terrible abuses" against Arabs after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, and that most Americans did not support such treatment.

 

Gore said Arabs had been "indiscriminately rounded up" and held in "unforgivable" conditions. The former vice president said the Bush administration was playing into al-Qaida's hands by routinely blocking Saudi visa applications.

 

"The thoughtless way in which visas are now handled, that is a mistake," Gore said during the Jiddah Economic Forum. "The worst thing we can possibly do is to cut off the channels of friendship and mutual understanding between Saudi Arabia and the United States."

 

I love the "lets pretend we're angry" machine. Oh my god what Al Gore said is reprehensible!! Wake up people, he didn't say s***!

 

"Unfortunately there have been terrible abuses and it's wrong," Gore said. "I do want you to know that it does not represent the desires or wishes or feelings of the majority of the citizens of my country."

 

Of course the Wall Street Journal opinion piece didn't include that quote, but of course it included a remarkably credible piece from a blogger named TigerHawk. What the f***.

 

When Bill O'Reilly jumps on something you know it's usually a bunch of crap.

Edited February 15, 2006 by KipWellsFan

[kapkomet]

I love the "lets pretend we're angry" machine.  Oh my god what Al Gore said is reprehensible!!  Wake up people, he didn't say s***!

Of course the Wall Street Journal opinion piece didn't include that quote, but of course it included a remarkably credible piece from a blogger named TigerHawk.  What the f***.

 

When Bill O'Reilly jumps on something you know it's usually a bunch of crap.

The point is any soundbite you use when you talk like this on foreign soil especially will go straight to recruting people to come and kill US. But apparently, it's ok, and he gets a pass. WTF ever.

[mr_genius]

I expect more from the inventor of the Internet.

 

 

me too

 

there are so many important things that need to be invented and he's wasting his marvelous mind on political stuff.

Edited February 16, 2006 by mr_genius

[YASNY]

When KipWellsFan jumps on something you know it's usually a bunch of crap.

 

Fixed that for you.

[Texsox]

My biggest complaint with Gore's speech is not what he said, but where he said it.  If he wants to give a speech here in the U.S. to spur policy changes, that's one thing. 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Texsox]

The point is any soundbite you use when you talk like this on foreign soil especially will go straight to recruting people to come and kill US.  But apparently, it's ok, and he gets a pass.  WTF ever.

You are worried about recruiting people to come to the US to kill us? Ahhh, isn't taking over Iraq a better recruiting tool?

 

Kap, they can make s*** up and attach Bush's name, Gore's name, your name, my name. This is a non issue for recruiting people to come kill us.

[NorthSideSox72]

Hmph, there certainly are some differences in the way the AP is presenting Gore's speech and the way other sources are doing so.  (This one from the "Arab News")

 

This was why, when I jumped in earlier, I first stipulated that I was skeptical of the "news source" used for the speech. Indeed, his speech was not nearly as inflammatory as was suggested by earlier citations.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

But but but but I thought the House of Saud was our ally? Followers of the Bush Cult of Personality (I don't dare say conservative anymore because there is a difference between the Bush platform and actual conservatism -- conservatism, I at least have respect for) can't have it both ways. You can't be an apologist for the Bush relationship with the House of Saud and then blast Gore for making a speech there in Saudi Arabia.

 

As for actual conservatives who believe that the American relationship with the primary creator of these dangerous fundamentalist madrassas is dangerous, continue with your well-reasoned discussion.

 

What Gore said is cited by facts. Most of the people at Gitmo get released with no charges (much like those detained in Iraq) It is antithetical to the spirit of the Constitution (due process, etc.) Sure we can say "We don't have to play by the rules anymore!" but does that really make us better than those we say we oppose? If we're ready, willing and able to give up liberties in the name of security, haven't the terrorists already won?

 

There's no excuse for not charging these people. There's no excuse for Bush to go around FISA. There's no reason that the PATRIOT Act allows the federal authorities to go through any "tangible records" (that's the library book provision -- it actually says tangible records meaning any...tangible records) but does not allow the government to look at gun purchases made. They can find out that you read the whole Nancy Drew series as an adult but not if a person on the (dubiously created because it is pretty damn inaccurate) terrorist watch list has purchased a firearm.

 

Get your outrage in the right places, people.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

But but but but I thought the House of Saud was our ally? Followers of the Bush Cult of Personality (I don't dare say conservative anymore because there is a difference between the Bush platform and actual conservatism -- conservatism, I at least have respect for) can't have it both ways.  You can't be an apologist for the Bush relationship with the House of Saud and then blast Gore for making a speech there in Saudi Arabia.

 

As for actual conservatives who believe that the American relationship with the primary creator of these dangerous fundamentalist madrassas is dangerous, continue with your well-reasoned discussion.

 

What Gore said is cited by facts.  Most of the people at Gitmo get released with no charges (much like those detained in Iraq)  It is antithetical to the spirit of the Constitution (due process, etc.)  Sure we can say "We don't have to play by the rules anymore!" but does that really make us better than those we say we oppose?  If we're ready, willing and able to give up liberties in the name of security, haven't the terrorists already won?

 

There's no excuse for not charging these people.  There's no excuse for Bush to go around FISA.  There's no reason that the PATRIOT Act allows the federal authorities to go through any "tangible records" (that's the library book provision -- it actually says tangible records meaning any...tangible records) but does not allow the government to look at gun purchases made.  They can find out that you read the whole Nancy Drew series as an adult but not if a person on the (dubiously created because it is pretty damn inaccurate) terrorist watch list has purchased a firearm.

 

Get your outrage in the right places, people.

 

 

Tell me what the similarity is between the US having the Saudi Kingdom as an ally and Al Gore going over there making a speech which is designed for no other purpose than to incite hatred of the United States?! Your not making any sense.

[NorthSideSox72]

Tell me what the similarity is between the US having the Saudi Kingdom as an ally and Al Gore going over there making a speech which is designed for no other purpose than to incite hatred of the United States?!  Your not making any sense.

 

Please tell me you don't actually think that Gore intended to incite violence. That's ridiculous.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Please tell me you don't actually think that Gore intended to incite violence.  That's ridiculous.

 

 

Read my post again please. His intent was to incite hatred not violence.

[NorthSideSox72]

Read my post again please.  His intent was to incite hatred not violence.

 

Sorry, I stand corrected.

 

Same question, though. Do you think he wanted to incite hatred? I think its pretty obvious that what he was trying to do was create a common ground to stand on. Now, he may have been misguided (or some might think just plain stupid) in his methods. But how can you think for a second that Al Gore would WANT to incite hatred?

[Balta1701]

Read my post again please.  His intent was to incite hatred not violence.

If you read the select AP quotes, it sure seems that way. The more you actually read of the speech, the less it seems that way.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Sorry, I stand corrected.

 

Same question, though.  Do you think he wanted to incite hatred?  I think its pretty obvious that what he was trying to do was create a common ground to stand on.  Now, he may have been misguided (or some might think just plain stupid) in his methods.  But how can you think for a second that Al Gore would WANT to incite hatred?

 

 

I think Al Gore is still bitter he lost the 2000 election. All he's done since his defeat is run off at the mouth about how horrible America is. He will say or do anything to make the government of this nation look bad.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think Al Gore is still bitter he lost the 2000 election.

 

This I agree with, and he can be very petty at times.

 

All he's done since his defeat is run off at the mouth about how horrible America is.  He will say or do anything to make the government of this nation look bad.

 

I think this is maybe a stretch. He certainly likes to make Bush look bad, but he isn't going to intentionally make the US as a country look bad.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

This I agree with, and he can be very petty at times.

I think this is maybe a stretch.  He certainly likes to make Bush look bad, but he isn't going to intentionally make the US as a country look bad.

 

 

Doesn't attacking the sitting president in that manner have that effect? Surely he knows this.

[NorthSideSox72]

Doesn't attacking the sitting president in that manner have that effect?  Surely he knows this.

 

I didn't see him "attacking" the President in the text of that speech. I saw him pointing out what he saw as mistakes.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Doesn't attacking the sitting president in that manner have that effect?  Surely he knows this.

The way I see it, unless we each conform, unless we obey orders, unless we follow our leaders blindly, there is no possible way we can remain free.

-Maj. Burns, MASH