clujer420 Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Thomas would have been a better choice than Armando Rios. No. If you're going to bench Frank, bench him. This pinch-hitting s*** is pointless. If the goal of benching him is to help him clear his mind, how does pinch-hitting him late in the game accomplish that? If he gets a hit, great, but 75% of the time (since his average is around .250) he's going to get out. I said in the chatroom earlier that I, for the life of me, don't understand why Rios is hitting 3rd. If you want to play him instead of Frank, fine -- but why not put Magglio in the #3 hole -- at least he's been doing pretty well lately (11 game hitting streak). Sox lose 5-1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 lay the f*** off. so does Jose say thank you after you suck it off, or does he drop a ball on your head to let you know he finished? Your rapier wit knows bounds....feel humbled by actual numbers from 2001-2002? I bet. Right now Jose is simply not seeing the breaking ball early. A few tweaks, few extra sessions with the BI and he will be fine. He is healthy finally and has SS all to himself. As bad as he has been thus far, he is still out-perfoming Konerko, Crede, Rios, Daubach. Harris, Olivo, etc ABRE LOS OJOS, AMIGO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 8th inning - first time tonight we've had two hits in one inning**... Borchard and CLee accomplished that... now bring them in! ** I could be wrong, could be a walk and a hit, but Rios makes the 3rd out easy so who cares Borchard walked. Rios was pulling the outside pitch every single time up. Carlos Lee is looking really good as of late. I stick to my idea of moving him to first. The thing is its going to be so hard to get someone else to take Thomas and Konerko cause part of the answer is getting rid of the two of them. Remember, we can't blame KW for having Thomas around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 1 for 3 with a stolen base and flawless defense. NBot bad. See that play with Borchard stopping at 3rd? Valentin would have scored. Running skills aren't appreciated enough. Val will get out of his slump and then watch out. I think Borchard would of scored. There is no way I wouldn't of been sending Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Why yes, V --820 median OPS --72 RBI/450 at-bat season out of second spot (many clutch, look at his RISP....) --Good running skiulls, a ton of extra bases taken witout benefit of SB --Off-field leadership --UnderratedDefense that costs very few actual runs from your SS is so very, very awful......Bwa! in 2001, he had recurring hamstring problems and in both 2001-2002 he was moved around defensively and still peformed quite welll...lay the f*** off. He's hitting about .215 with RISP this season. Anyone watch that sequence in the ninth. Like I said, three straight curves and the whiff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 1 for 3 with a stolen base and flawless defense. NBot bad. See that play with Borchard stopping at 3rd? Valentin would have scored. Running skills aren't appreciated enough. Val will get out of his slump and then watch out. I think Borchard would of scored. There is no way I wouldn't of been sending Joe. BS...he DIDN'T SCORE and that's EXACTLY the point...Jose scores from 1st on doubles and 2nd on singles as well as anyone in the league. Alas, people only start appreciating it when Sox can't score on 3 long singles in the Metrodome with the game on the line... Jose will finish the year with 85+ RBI, you can bank on it. He also has only 1 eror in his last, what, 17 games. ONE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Why yes, V --820 median OPS --72 RBI/450 at-bat season out of second spot (many clutch, look at his RISP....) --Good running skiulls, a ton of extra bases taken witout benefit of SB --Off-field leadership --UnderratedDefense that costs very few actual runs from your SS is so very, very awful......Bwa! in 2001, he had recurring hamstring problems and in both 2001-2002 he was moved around defensively and still peformed quite welll...lay the f*** off. He's hitting about .215 with RISP this season. Anyone watch that sequence in the ninth. Like I said, three straight curves and the whiff. Also their is no such thing as an error that isn't costful. No matter what it makes a pitcher throw at least an extra pitch or two. Well I guess you could get a dp on the very next pitch, but thats unlikely. A run may not score, but you have to face more batters, extend the pitcher, etc. It also hurts the mindset of the club. Jose's defense and offense are definately some of the problems. I've never given a hoot about his offense and have always hated his defense. Konerko is stinking at both, Thomas stinks at both. Crede, Olivo, Borchard, aren't the problems. YOU DON"T BLAME ROOKIES. Valentin isn't a rookie, he's been in this league and you don't just get better at 34 or however damn old he is; it isn't likely to happen at least. Valentin is and always will be a mediocre to crappy shortstop who has heart. That means crap on a losing team. heart is a great thing to have when your coming off the bench for a winner. Problem is the Sox aren't a winner and he isn't coming off the bench. You want a winning team, get fundementally sound guys. YOUR NUTS if you think Val is a fundementally sound player. Val, Thomas and Konerko along with White should be the first to go. Lee then goes to first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 team acts just like Jm ...........LIFELESS fire the cocksucker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 1 for 3 with a stolen base and flawless defense. NBot bad. See that play with Borchard stopping at 3rd? Valentin would have scored. Running skills aren't appreciated enough. Val will get out of his slump and then watch out. I think Borchard would of scored. There is no way I wouldn't of been sending Joe. BS...he DIDN'T SCORE and that's EXACTLY the point...Jose scores from 1st on doubles and 2nd on singles as well as anyone in the league. Alas, people only start appreciating it when Sox can't score on 3 long singles in the Metrodome with the game on the line... Jose will finish the year with 85+ RBI, you can bank on it. He also has only 1 eror in his last, what, 17 games. ONE. How could he score if they hold him up. he can't run through the stop sign. He would of been way safe. I didn't have a freaking clue why they held him up. Valentin is slower then Borchard so I don't think he would of scored because he would of also gotten the stop sign. I know you don't want to make that out, but in that situation you got to be going for the run trying to make something happen. Lord knows the Sox don't hit with two outs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 He's hitting about .215 with RISP this season. Anyone watch that sequence in the ninth. Like I said, three straight curves and the whiff. Jesus f***ing Christ, will you give him a break? This man has done it for 3 straight years, how about some benefit of the doubt after little more than a quarter of the season? Absolutely unreal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Why yes, V --820 median OPS --72 RBI/450 at-bat season out of second spot (many clutch, look at his RISP....) --Good running skiulls, a ton of extra bases taken witout benefit of SB --Off-field leadership --UnderratedDefense that costs very few actual runs from your SS is so very, very awful......Bwa! in 2001, he had recurring hamstring problems and in both 2001-2002 he was moved around defensively and still peformed quite welll...lay the f*** off. People still make excuses for Thomas sucking too and at least Thomas isn't killing the team defensively because he's a dh. Thomas can also manage to get an obp over .300 no matter how crappy he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 lay the f*** off. so does Jose say thank you after you suck it off, or does he drop a ball on your head to let you know he finished? Your rapier wit knows bounds....feel humbled by actual numbers from 2001-2002? I bet. Right now Jose is simply not seeing the breaking ball early. A few tweaks, few extra sessions with the BI and he will be fine. He is healthy finally and has SS all to himself. As bad as he has been thus far, he is still out-perfoming Konerko, Crede, Rios, Daubach. Harris, Olivo, etc ABRE LOS OJOS, AMIGO! And he is proving me right that he should never of had the opportunity to have shortstop all to himself. He's mediocre player. Look through his attitude and you'll see he hurts this team, doesn't help it. He's far from the only one, but I put him as one of the major problems with Konerko and Thomas. Then I have White, who sucks horribly, but isn't near as much of a let down as those three. Although I never expected a damn thing from Jose. I've wanted the Sox to trade for a shortstop and 2nd baseman for a long long time now. I can only hope we get Almazenga from the Angels in a trade or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Valentin is slower then Borchard so I don't think he would of scored because he would of also gotten the stop sign. That's just baseball ignorance right there. Just watch some games, will ya? In 40 yard dash, yes Borchard is a step faster. Maybe. Actual base-running? f*** no...even with hamstring issues, Jose is almost as fast on the straight line, is more swift around the bags and, more importantly, gets great jumps. Borchard has a lot to learn and is going to slow down as he ages. Non-factor on the BP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 1 for 3 with a stolen base and flawless defense. NBot bad. See that play with Borchard stopping at 3rd? Valentin would have scored. Running skills aren't appreciated enough. Val will get out of his slump and then watch out. I think Borchard would of scored. There is no way I wouldn't of been sending Joe. BS...he DIDN'T SCORE and that's EXACTLY the point...Jose scores from 1st on doubles and 2nd on singles as well as anyone in the league. Alas, people only start appreciating it when Sox can't score on 3 long singles in the Metrodome with the game on the line... Jose will finish the year with 85+ RBI, you can bank on it. He also has only 1 eror in his last, what, 17 games. ONE. Umm, he misplayed a ball about two days ago that sent the Sox into extra's against the Twins and I can remember a few more errors lately, I think. I watch almost every game, so I don't pay much attention to stats and there is NOTHING I trust more then my eyes considering how often I watch. I got a ton of confidence in them, lol. Jose isn't a good player. Ask NON Sox fans if Jose is good and you'll get a much more rational answer and that would be NO. For some reason Sox fans get this fascination that he's a great player and he isn't. He sucks defensively and sucks offensively. He has about a hot month that keeps his avg up over an entire season, otherwise he's bad. Look at last season and you'll notice that Clayton was out hitting him for a bit. At least expecting Frank to pick up was reasonable. He was coming off an injury. Jose was HEALTHY last year. Frank was coming off an injury and started seeing the ball and whacking it for a full month. You just assumed he was finally back from his injury. Tearing your labrum or whatever he tore (Bicep?) and having to sit out a full season is way harder then a hammy injury where your still able to play. It has an effect, but once your healthy there isn't much of a rehab cause you haven't missed a full season of timing and seeing live pitching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 That's just baseball ignorance right there. Just watch some games, will ya? In 40 yard dash, yes Borchard is a step faster. Maybe. Actual base-running? f*** no...even with hamstring issues, Jose is almost as fast on the straight line, is more swift around the bags and, more importantly, gets great jumps. Borchard has a lot to learn and is going to slow down as he ages. Non-factor on the BP Borchard is faster. I've watched him take off. On that play he's safe by a mile. I couldn't possibly watch anymore games cause I see all of them in some shape of form, minus the WCIU games (Hell everyone needs a break to go to the pool or beach every once in a while; Plus my friends get sick of hearing me talk about the Sox and seeing the games, lol) Borchard did good on that play and would of been safe. All I'm saying is Jose would of got the stop sign too. Both would of scored on the play and I agree Jose takes great angles. When I played ball I was never the fastest, but when it came to running the bases I always had the best times cause I made the bannana turn right and was always moving and new how to cut the angle perfectly. Since I didn't see Joe the whole way I can't say if he had a good jump, but with the location of that ball he should of been running the whole way. If only we had a replay we could say. If I was wrong, I'd gladly admit and I won't say Jose isn't a good baserunner. I think he does plenty of things that would make him fine off the BENCH as an ocassional starter/dh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 People still make excuses for Thomas sucking too and at least Thomas isn't killing the team defensively because he's a dh. Thomas can also manage to get an obp over .300 no matter how crappy he is. That's just short-sighted IMO. Jose's errors have cost the Sox the grand total of 3-4 runs all season. (I am not even going to go into how many he saves with range, arm and especially DP...) Graffanino's cost the Sox 4-5 runs--in essense the whole game--- in ONE game. Hence the "clutch" part in "clutch defense". Like his baserunning, people only start appreciating it only when OTHER players' f***ups lead to absolute implosions. Most people agree with you and not me? That's because most fans never look beyond numbers. Plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 I think he does plenty of things that would make him fine off the BENCH as an ocassional starter/dh. I disagree; as a part-time player his value goes down significantly. Him being platooned with Clayton only reinforced it. On weeks where he got 3 or more consecutive starts, he did great. Other times, his timing weas way off and he was missing pitches he normally kills. He is no Vander Walt, either start him at SS or trade him and get a "Renteria" type if you can. He needs to work on recognizing rotation again, something he did so well in 2000. He will be ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 That's just short-sighted IMO. Jose's errors have cost the Sox the grand total of 3-4 runs all season. (I am not even going to go into how many he saves with range, arm and especially DP...) Graffanino's cost the Sox 4-5 runs--in essense the whole game--- in ONE game. Hence the "clutch" part in "clutch defense". Like his baserunning, people only start appreciating it only when OTHER players' f***ups lead to absolute implosions. Most people agree with you and not me? That's because most fans never look beyond numbers. Plain and simple. Well if they agree with me this is a new trend cause for years everyone has disagreed with my take on Jose. You flash me the runs he stops, but you never mention hits. Errors hurt a team no matter what. It just happens he hasn't made any during super key situations, but they still hurt. If you want to say you appreciate him when comparing him to the Sox baserunning go for it, but don't make him good because of the Sox pathetic fundmentals. This team needs a wholesale change from players to coaching to management. There are a lot of issues and some of it stems from the way the organization builds teams. They build it on power and not speed, defense and pitching, which is what really wins games. I'd trade for the Twins any day of the week. You realize how fun they are to watch. I bet the Cell would be damn near sold out if the Sox played that style of baseball. All those guys have the fundementals and heart of Jose (Using him for example) and they make all the heads up plays while still playing tremendous defense, etc. I hate to admit it, but the TWINS are FUN to watch. Great defense, do the little things, never say die; They are just FIESTY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 I disagree; as a part-time player his value goes down significantly. Him being platooned with Clayton only reinforced it. On weeks where he got 3 or more consecutive starts, he did great. Other times, his timing weas way off and he was missing pitches he normally kills. He is no Vander Walt, either start him at SS or trade him and get a "Renteria" type if you can. He needs to work on recognizing rotation again, something he did so well in 2000. He will be ok. I want to trade him and use trades to bring in a young shortstop with a slick glove that has great speed and can handle a bat. By handle a bat I mean make contact, bunt, and has a good eye. I could give a damn about what he hits right away as long as he does the little things. I mean he'll have to do around .250 with a solid obp. Note: I'm more then willing to accept a rather low avg if they have a ton of other things that make up for it. Almazenga of the Angels would be my guy cause I think we could land him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 On that play he's safe by a mile. I disagree Jason. Borchard had BARELY reached 3rd by the time the RF'er had the ball. It was like he was running in molasses. I don't know what he was doing, but he should have scored EASILY on that play. If it had been Jose, the play wouldn't have even drawn a throw. BUT, it doesn't matter much now. That run wasn't worth 4, so BFD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Borchard did good on that play and would of been safe. All I'm saying is Jose would of got the stop sign too No, Jas, he wouldn't. If past is any indication, they send Jose almost every time and he scores on that double with 2 outs. The fact that they stopped Borhard says something about his chances at the plate. There is no way an awkward Borchard who gets bad reads on the BP as wwell we defense, is faster on the base paths. That's just wishful thinking on your part. Ask Sox 3rd base coach of you ever get a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 If it had been Jose, the play wouldn't have even drawn a throw. Finally somebody with some f***ing baseball sense! Jas, what happened? You usually make great baseball commentary, but I with respect to that play/Jose I am disagreeing with vehemently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 I disagree Jason. Borchard had BARELY reached 3rd by the time the RF'er had the ball. It was like he was running in molasses. I don't know what he was doing, but he should have scored EASILY on that play. If it had been Jose, the play wouldn't have even drawn a throw. BUT, it doesn't matter much now. That run wasn't worth 4, so BFD. True. I saw him on third when the outfielder picked it up. I was studying during this whole thing so who the hell knows. I could be blind. No point in arguing that play individually. I soley stick to my guns on Jose. People actually convinced me this year that he would be worth something. I tried, yet all I ever see is worthless traits. You can say he runs, but Tom Goodwin can run and play good defense and he hits like crap. You don't see me asking for him to play. Jose has power and he's better then Goodwin, but similar situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 No, Jas, he wouldn't. If past is any indication, they send Jose almost every time and he scores on that double with 2 outs. The fact that they stopped Borhard says something about his chances at the plate. There is no way an awkward Borchard who gets bad reads on the BP as wwell we defense, is faster on the base paths. That's just wishful thinking on your part. Ask Sox 3rd base coach of you ever get a chance. Could it be that they stopped him because they don't know his speed, etc because he's been up for so little. I agree with you Jose doesn't get the stop sign because they know him. But I think if they treated the two the same, neither would of scored. Obviously Jose has more trust because he's been here and doesn't get into many mistakes. I understand your huge on stats, but stats only show part of it. Overall you can look at stats and figure things out, but to really asses you watch and breakdown the swing. See who he gets his hits off of (Can he hit good pitchers?) etc and then you know a lot more. I know Jimenez is doing good, don't have to look at the stats. I know Carlos has been solid and Maggs has been really doing good. I could say that jsut watching their approaches and seeing them go oppo field, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 As bad as he has been, he is 3rd on the team in RBI and second in runs scored. 1 error in last 17 games. Give him and his assets (range, arm, DP-turning, RBI prowess, basrunning, off leadership) a chance until you can find something to replace him with. This topic is a dead horse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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