Second lefty update

[Felix]

Who wouldn't take Nathan. How is that relevant to anything we are talking about. It would be relevant if Minny would trade us Nathan straight up for Politte. Do you think they would do that?

Taking Nathan instead of Carrasco is the opposite of what you said GM's have to do here:

You can't run around trying to predict what will happen next year. You have to go with those that had GOOD years last year and hope that they can hang on.

 

Since Carrasco had a better year last year, according to your logic in that post, anybody would take him over Nathan.

 

And all I'm doing it poking holes in your argument. I'm not saying who KW should/will trade for.

[jphat007]

A GM's job IS trying to predict how someone will do in the future, not base everything on last season.

 

Yes I realize that. I'm sure KW does as well. So he improved as much as he could this offseason. We improved the rotation, the offense, and the bench. I'd love him to replace Hermy with some gaurenteed stud too but he would have had to given up too much to get someone like him.

 

KW choose to improve other areas of the team and plan on the same bullpen guys giving him enough because he saw enough improvement in them last year that they could go out and a least produce most of the time this year.

Edited March 11, 2006 by jphat007

[jphat007]

Taking Nathan instead of Carrasco is the opposite of what you said GM's have to do here:

Since Carrasco had a better year last year, according to your logic in that post, anybody would take him over Nathan.

 

And all I'm doing it poking holes in your argument.  I'm not saying who KW should/will trade for.

 

Yah, in fantasy baseball. You are talking in those terms. Not in how baseball really works. I'm sure KW would love to get some massive updgrade for Hermy but there is no way to do it, so he has to improve as much as he can and hope those guys can get the job done this year because they made improvements last year. And not just in the stats.

[Dick Allen]

Yes I realize that. I'm sure KW does as well. So he improved as much as he could this offseason. We improved the rotation, the offense, and the bench. I'd love him to replace Hermy with some gaurenteed stud too but he would have had to given up too much to get someone like him.

KW did a good job, be he neglected the bullpen. Politte, Hermanson, Cotts all performed much better than could be reasonably expected last year, and are longshots to repeat that performance. Hermanson in particular mentioned he may have to retire during the playoffs. Jenks is a wildcard as well. He was great, has great stuff, but has had questionable behavior in the past. Middle relievers aren't that expensive. Bringing in a bunch of garbage like the dopes auditioning for the second left handed reliever role was puzzling. BMac looks like the real deal, but I don't think the White Sox want him making a ton of appearances in relief, and if a starter goes down, he's in the rotation. The reason the 2nd lefty and last member of the pitching staff is important, is the way Ozzie uses the bullpen. Its possible everyone will repeat or come close to their performance last year, its also possible, more possible IMO that the bullpen becomes as Donald Trump would say "a total disaster". I really think KW needs to add at least 1 reliable bullpen guy right now, and probably will need to add another during the course of the season.

[WCSox]

And thats exactly why some people are worried about Cotts, Politte and Hermanson, and think that Kenny should trade for some real bullpen help.

 

Kenny has already traded for Thome to replace Frank and address this team's laughably-poor OBP last season. That was priority #1. And the trade for Vazquez moved McCarthy to the 'pen. So, in a way, he already did address the bullpen. People like Scot Shields or Brad Lidge don't exactly grow on trees and most GMs are reluctant to part ways with tem.

 

KW could easily dangle Contreras as trade bait to address any problems that arise in the 'pen prior to the deadline. Outisde of maybe adding another lefty (which could be done at any time), I don't see any gaping holes in the 'pen or anywhere else on this team.

[jphat007]

KW did a good job, be he neglected the bullpen. Politte, Hermanson, Cotts all performed much better than could be reasonably expected last year, and are longshots to repeat that performance. Hermanson in particular mentioned he may have to retire during the playoffs. Jenks is a wildcard as well. He was great, has great stuff, but has had questionable behavior in the past. Middle relievers aren't that expensive. Bringing in a bunch of garbage like the dopes auditioning for the second left handed reliever role was puzzling. BMac looks like the real deal, but I don't think the White Sox want him making a ton of appearances in relief, and if a starter goes down, he's in the rotation. The reason the 2nd lefty and last member of the pitching staff is important, is the way Ozzie uses the bullpen. Its possible everyone will repeat or come close to their performance last year, its also possible, more possible IMO that the bullpen becomes as Donald Trump would say "a total disaster". I really think KW needs to add at least 1 reliable bullpen guy right now, and probably will need to add another during the course of the season.

 

But that's my point. KW did a cost effective analysis and decided that it was more important to improve the rotation (longterm as well) and the bench and the offense, and hope that the bullpen will just be close to last year's numbers. I sure he would have loved to add a stud bullpen guy, but he didn't have the resources. We aren't the Yanks. Our payroll improved by a hell of a lot. KW listens to Coop and Ozzie and they think that the bulllpen could at least get the job done for the most part this year. I'm sure KW would love to fill every little hole, but that just isn't realisitic. THat's not the way baseball works. Every team is going to have holes.

 

Bullpen help costs A LOT, and then it isn't even guarenteed. If you want guarenteed bullpen help, you have to give up half your team.

[Felix]

Yah, in fantasy baseball. You are talking in those terms. Not in how baseball really works. I'm sure KW would love to get some massive updgrade for Hermy but there is no way to do it, so he has to improve as much as he can and hope those guys can get the job done this year because they made improvements last year. And not just in the stats.

I'm not saying who KW should/will trade for.

I'm not even talking about the White Sox right now. I'm just saying that what you posted in that post is downright foolish, and far from being the thing a smart GM does. Good GM's don't go with the player who has had one good year and 10 bad years over the guy who has been solid (but worse than the other players one year) year in and out.

 

Again, I'm not saying that Kenny should go out and trade for a top notch reliever. I think that he should trade for a LOOGY if it doesn't cost too much (which doesn't sound possible because there is a lack of lefty specialists in this league that are available), and I think he should be prepared to make some deals when Hermanson goes down with a bad back 2 weeks into the season. I think that Sox fans have a very valid reason to be concerned about this bullpen.

[Dick Allen]

But that's my point. KW did a cost effective analysis and decided that it was more important to improve the rotation (longterm as well) and the bench and the offense, and hope that the bullpen will just be close to last year's numbers. I sure he would have loved to add a stud bullpen guy, but he didn't have the resources. We aren't the Yanks. Our payroll improved by a hell of a lot. KW listens to Coop and Ozzie and they think that the bulllpen could at least get the job done for the most part this year. I'm sure KW would love to fill every little hole, but that just isn't realisitic. THat's not the way baseball works. Every team is going to have holes.

 

Bullpen help costs A LOT, and then it isn't even guarenteed. If you want guarenteed bullpen help, you have to give up half your team.

 

Bullpen help costs a heck of a lot less than a guy like Vazquez in terms of money and talent traded to get him.

[fathom]

^^^^x100. Im almost getting sick of myself because it seems like thats all I post anymore. We need at least 1 more veteran in pen. I threw out the name Ray King, but there 20+ other guys that fit the bill, and will be available by June.

 

I know it sounds greedy when we keep saying that we're going to need another bullpen guy, but it's the truth. It's the one spot on our team that looks like it could be a big downgrade from last season. I have absolutely no confidence in Hermanson. Between his back problems and his lack of velocity/splitter, I think he's going to be serving up homers left and right this season (if he's not on the DL).

[jphat007]

This team doesnt need a Scot Sheilds or Brad Lidge. I dont think anyone has said that. The eternal optimists that think everything is perfect want to believe that is what were talking about, but thats just not the case.

 

All Kenny needs to do is go out and find a guy that has put up a 3.20-3.80 ERA in the pen the last few years. There are plenty of guys out there that can do that, and some on REALLY bad teams...

 

I would love for you to show me a guy that will most likely put up those type of numbers and is available for cheap.

[fathom]

I'm going to duck after I say this, but I was hoping that KW would look into trading Contreras for a package including Brad Lidge this offseason.

[Jordan4life_2007]

For pete sake the guy has a 6.09 ERA in his major league career (171 games).  Last year he was away from Coors and he was even worse with a 9.42 ERA in 29 games.

 

This guy is HORRID.  Kevin Walker is inifintely better than some of these bums that this team is giving a shot.  I fear for this cause Ozzie tends to use guys in big situations, regardless of who they are, and these guys will BLOW games left and right.

 

That was in like 10 innings. I'm giving all these guys a fair shot. What other choice do we have? I wish this was fantasy baseball in which you could just address a need whenever you felt like it. But it's not. Lopez has been impressive to this point. If he can keep it going, he should make the team.

[jphat007]

Bullpen help costs a heck of a lot less than a guy like Vazquez in terms of money and talent traded to get him.

 

Did you see some of the contracts given out to bullpen guys this offseason? Seriously? Plus Vasquez helps our rotation long term and bullpen this year with Bmac. I'm pretty sure KW knows what he is doing.

[Felix]

I'm going to duck after I say this, but I was hoping that KW would look into trading Contreras for a package including Brad Lidge this offseason.

Pods would be his best friend in the locker room

And yea, I agree with that. I was hoping Contreras would be dealt for a stud reliever, and I think its still a possibility to happen.

[WCSox]

This team doesnt need a Scot Sheilds or Brad Lidge. I dont think anyone has said that. The eternal optimists that think everything is perfect want to believe that is what were talking about, but thats just not the case.

 

How about the "eternal pessimists" who are complaining about how bad the 'pen might be? Given that this team already has six starting pitching options that range from "pretty good" to "great", I don't think that adding another middle reliever is something that has to be done right away.

 

All Kenny needs to do is go out and find a guy that has put up a 3.20-3.80 ERA in the pen the last few years. There are plenty of guys out there that can do that, and some on REALLY bad teams...

 

If they're that easy to find, why not wait until we actually have a problem in the 'pen? Why spend more money or trade away a valuable player to address a problem that hasn't developed yet and may not ever develop? I agree that we could use another lefty in the 'pen, but I don't see why a deal needs to be made RIGHT THIS MINUTE. Why not wait until May?

[Dick Allen]

If they're that easy to find, why not wait until we actually have a problem in the 'pen?  Why spend more money or trade away a valuable player to address a problem that hasn't developed yet and may not ever develop?  I agree that we could use another lefty in the 'pen, but I don't see why a deal needs to be made RIGHT THIS MINUTE.  Why not wait until May?

 

Because one or two games may make a difference between being in the playoffs and making sure you make your tee times.

[Felix]

L. Ayala-Washington

D. Riske-Boston

K. Calero-Oakland

Julio Mateo-Seattle

Julián Tavárez-Boston

Akinori Otsuka-Texas

JJ Putz-Seattle

Ray King-Colorado

Where's Shingo Takatsu-Swallows?

[fathom]

If Hermanson is healthy, I have faith in him. He doesnt have the best stuff, but I beleive he knows how to get the job done. However, health is the key word, and like yourself, I dont beleive Dustin will ever get to 100% this season, let alone 80%.....

 

I don't know how confident he is in his own stuff right now. Even if he was healthy, I don't think he would have kept his ERA in the low 3s. No one appreciates what Hermanson did last year more than me. I think he was the MVP of our team for the first 100 games of the season. However, he seemed to be able to do no wrong. He got away with a lot of meatballs right down the plate, and the opposition seemed to have warning track power against him.

[jphat007]

How about the "eternal pessimists" who are complaining about how bad the 'pen might be?  Given that this team already has six starting pitching options that range from "pretty good" to "great", I don't think that adding another middle reliever is something that has to be done right away.

If they're that easy to find, why not wait until we actually have a problem in the 'pen?  Why spend more money or trade away a valuable player to address a problem that hasn't developed yet and may not ever develop?  I agree that we could use another lefty in the 'pen, but I don't see why a deal needs to be made RIGHT THIS MINUTE.  Why not wait until May?

 

Exactly. And KW understands what is going on. I'm sure he'd love to go get a guy that is guarenteed to put up a 3.50 ERA in the bullpen, but this isn't fantasy baseball. You can't always get what you want.

[fathom]

How about the "eternal pessimists" who are complaining about how bad the 'pen might be?  Given that this team already has six starting pitching options that range from "pretty good" to "great", I don't think that adding another middle reliever is something that has to be done right away.

 

 

Never thought I'd see Tony and Felix be characterized as eternal pessimists.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Pods would be his best friend in the locker room

And yea, I agree with that.  I was hoping Contreras would be dealt for a stud reliever, and I think its still a possibility to happen.

 

You better get a lot more than a reliever for a guy the caliber of Jose Contreras.

[jphat007]

L. Ayala-Washington

D. Riske-Boston

K. Calero-Oakland

Julio Mateo-Seattle

Julián Tavárez-Boston

Akinori Otsuka-Texas

JJ Putz-Seattle

Ray King-Colorado

 

I said available for cheap. We would have to give up money and players to get any of those players. Money and talent that KW doesn't have to give up.

 

None of those teams would give up bullpen help like that for cheap.

[Felix]

You better get a lot more than a reliever for a guy the caliber of Jose Contreras.

My ideal deal would be Contreras for a solid reliever, a AAA starter who can fill in for any possible injuries, and a prospect or so to shore up the farm system.

 

Never thought I'd see Tony and Felix be characterized as eternal pessimists.

[Jordan4life_2007]

L. Ayala-Washington

D. Riske-Boston

K. Calero-Oakland

Julio Mateo-Seattle

Julián Tavárez-Boston

Akinori Otsuka-Texas

JJ Putz-Seattle

Ray King-Colorado

 

You can pretty much scratch out all of those AL teams. They're certainly not looking at helping us upgrade.

[Dick Allen]

Exactly. And KW understands what is going on. I'm sure he'd love to go get a guy that is guarenteed to put up a 3.50 ERA in the bullpen, but this isn't fantasy baseball. You can't always get what you want.

Nothing is guaranteed. But considering some of the money the White Sox have thrown around this off season, its pretty incredible to me no money was thrown at the bullpen. Bullpen performances have been known for their fluxuation from year to year. KW at Soxfest spoke about how strong he thought the bullpen would be. I hope he's right, but I disagree with him if he's going with what he's got.