Debate about debates, er something

[southsider2k5]

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

 

I've conceded the rest of the Filibuster board to you...

 

You can have the Filibuster whole board, I sure don't want it.

 

With the amount of problems and fights that come out of here, it is a complete waste of time. There is absolutely no decent discussion that goes on in the Filibuster at all. Pretty much I have realized that I have become as guilty as anyone else of posting only completely partisian stuff just like everyone else here, because I had gotten so sick of only seeing one side of the arguements, and the completely slander of basically everything I believe in. It has gotten to the point where I am sick of people basically posting how stupid I am for seeing something differently than they do, and being generically labeld as this, that and the other, that it isn't even worth it anymore.

 

To be honest, this board has done more to make me start voting as a straight ticket Republician than I ever thought was possible. I have voted for Dems all of the way up to senators, and contemplated it during the last Presidential cycle, but much of the same reasons, I did not. For a party that is supposed to be the one of inclusion, I have sure never felt anything that would make me feel wanted as a Democrat by Democrats, with this board being the microcausm of what I see nationally. And to be honest, with the behavior of some of the people on my "own side" its more made me think of just doing the American thing and just quit voting in general and just start complaining more. We talk about the system being bad, but we are the ones who let this system exsist. If we wouldn't let attack ads and hate determine who we vote for, we'd have positive campaigns and decent canditates. Instead all play lowest common denominator politics and we end up with people like the Bush's and the Clinton's, and still have the audacity to act like our side is somehow better.

 

Maybe I just need to move to Montana now, get my shack, and start my manifesto, but I swear talking politics here has done more to burn me out of caring than just about anything else. I don't see us as being any better than the people we critisize, and I have realized today, that I don't want any part of it anymore.

[Rex Kickass]

In defense of us, this and the Filibuster in general.

 

Southsider, you and I are friends. It bothers me a lot to hear you say that this board has done more to make you a straight ticket Republican. Not that I think you should go one side or the other. If I lived in Michigan City, I highly doubt that I'd be voting for the local dems either. But it always bothers me to hear this from someone. Because the truth is, if the behavior of this board is a bellwether of anything - it's more of the fact that extreme partisanship is, indeed, annoying.

 

I will say this. There has been a lot of disrespect in this board for a long time. Some of it crosses the line, some of it doesn't. And its a sad atmosphere that we have some posters here who are now afraid of starting threads because they don't want to be labelled as something that they don't consider themselves to be.

 

There are those of us here who actually like to discuss politics. Some of us who happen to find an interesting article and want to share it with other people. Sometimes its a biased column. Sometimes its just an interesting news article that may or may not put someone in a bad light. And the sad thing is, that on more than one occasion the mere posting of a link to an AP or Reuters story has had a poster branded as one thing or another.

 

I'll agree that we could do without the "Politician is a stupid idiot" threads. But SS, why don't you look at who posts them. In defense of my side of the aisle, it's not us who can't seem to go 15 posts without bringing up Chappaquiddick, or how Carter or Clinton sucked worse than any president in modern history.

 

I don't think that this particular part of the message board is anymore worthless than any other to be honest. Occasionally really good debate and discussion takes place here. We even find agreement occasionally - see the Katrina thread. But maybe you're right. Maybe the world does need six more pages talking about Nick and Jessica's divorce.

[kapkomet]

You can have the Filibuster whole board, I sure don't want it. 

 

With the amount of problems and fights that come out of here, it is a complete waste of time.  There is absolutely no decent discussion that goes on in the Filibuster at all.  Pretty much I have realized that I have become as guilty as anyone else of posting only completely partisian stuff just like everyone else here, because I had gotten so sick of only seeing one side of the arguements, and the completely slander of basically everything I believe in.  It has gotten to the point where I am sick of people basically posting how stupid I am for seeing something differently than they do, and being generically labeld as this, that and the other, that it isn't even worth it anymore. 

 

To be honest, this board has done more to make me start voting as a straight ticket Republician than I ever thought was possible.  I have voted for Dems all of the way up to senators, and contemplated it during the last Presidential cycle, but much of the same reasons, I did not.  For a party that is supposed to be the one of inclusion, I have sure never felt anything that would make me feel wanted as a Democrat by Democrats, with this board being the microcausm of what I see nationally.  And to be honest, with the behavior of some of the people on my "own side" its more made me think of just doing the American thing and just quit voting in general and just start complaining more.  We talk about the system being bad, but we are the ones who let this system exsist.  If we wouldn't let attack ads and hate determine who we vote for, we'd have positive campaigns and decent canditates.  Instead all play lowest common denominator politics and we end up with people like the Bush's and the Clinton's, and still have the audacity to act like our side is somehow better.

 

Maybe I just need to move to Montana now, get my shack, and start my manifesto, but I swear talking politics here has done more to burn me out of caring than just about anything else.    I don't see us as being any better than the people we critisize, and I have realized today, that I don't want any part of it anymore.

*crickets* And it's because it's in the Dem only thread.

 

This post is exactly what I was getting at earlier, and I got the usual gauntlet throwdown of "this is MY thread"... and that is so not the point. It's easier to talk about how wrong the other side is, but there is virtually no talk of how the other side is better. And I say that from both sides of the spectrum on this site.

 

Time and time again, this has been proven here, and the lack of a response to this proves it yet again.

 

I'm really disappointed in this.

[FlaSoxxJim]

*crickets* And it's because it's in the Dem only thread.

 

This post is exactly what I was getting at earlier, and I got the usual gauntlet throwdown of "this is MY thread"... and that is so not the point.  It's easier to talk about how wrong the other side is, but there is virtually no talk of how the other side is better.  And I say that from both sides of the spectrum on this site.

 

Time and time again, this has been proven here, and the lack of a response to this proves it yet again.

 

I'm really disappointed in this.

 

Lack of response? Isn't Rex' response a response? He addressed SS specifically, it indeed seems like a response. I think he spoke in very straightforward terms and echoed a lot of the sentiments I feel.

 

As far as a response from me, I thought I'd try the "if you can't say something nice. . . " approach. Not that I can't say all kinds of genuinely nice things about SS, yourself, ar anybody else. I've enjoyed way more of the interactions between all of us than not.

 

But, I will say I agree with Rex that if sparring on the board here is the deciding factor in turning anybody into a straight-ticket [insert party ailiation here] then that's not a particularly rational response. SS talks about how the administration-critical posts here attack the things he holds dear, but I quite honestly have the exact opposite opinion. THIS ADMINISTRATION has attacked the values we hold dear, and it deserves to be called out on it. The Adminsitration, in its push for its Unitary Executive, has tossed aside the idea that governmental checks and balances are by necessity at the heart of our system of government. But to post something saying as much here makes the poster the bad guy, and not the Neocon powermongers who look upon congressional oversight and judicial review with such disdain.

 

You attack the messenger, and pay no attention to the message. Sure, posts from "our side" sound like a broken record at times, but again that is the fault of the pathological power abusers and not the people expressing their concerns over the abuse of executive power.

 

I don't envy you your chosen task of continually trying to defend the indefensible, but attacking the messengers is not truly a defense. It is a way to derail the chance for meaningful dialog, though.

 

You don't like the message so you snipe and snipe and snipe. Pretty soon it becomes plain that "preaching to the choir" is the best that can be hoped for here anymore so anything we previously hoped would foster meaningful discussion out in Filibuster at large gets put into the clubhouse threads instead. If the clubhouse thread is going to devolve into s***storm threads because you think it needs an alternative viewpoint' then that is unfortunate.

 

But this is all a grand experiment anyway. It's going to become what it's going to become.

 

That is my response.

[kapkomet]

Lack of response? Isn't Rex' response a response?  He addressed SS specifically, it indeed seems like a response.  I think he spoke in very straightforward terms and echoed a lot of the sentiments I feel.

 

As far as a response from me, I thought I'd try the "if you can't say something nice. . . " approach.  Not that I can't say all kinds of genuinely nice things about SS, yourself, ar anybody else.  I've enjoyed way more of the interactions between all of us than not.

 

But, I will say I agree with Rex that if sparring on the board here is the deciding factor in turning anybody into a straight-ticket [insert party ailiation here] then that's not a particularly rational response.  SS talks about how the administration-critical posts here attack the things he holds dear, but I quite honestly have the exact opposite opinion.  THIS ADMINISTRATION has attacked the values we hold dear, and it deserves to be called out on it.  The Adminsitration, in its push for its Unitary Executive, has tossed aside the idea that governmental checks and balances are by necessity at the heart of our system of government.  But to post something saying as much here makes the poster the bad guy, and not the Neocon powermongers who look upon congressional oversight and judicial review with such disdain.

 

You attack the messenger, and pay no attention to the message.  Sure, posts from "our side" sound like a broken record at times, but again that is the fault of the pathological power abusers and not the people expressing their concerns over the abuse of executive power.

 

I don't envy you your chosen task of continually trying to defend the indefensible, but attacking the messengers is not truly a defense.  It is a way to derail the chance for meaningful dialog, though.

 

You don't like the message so you snipe and snipe and snipe.  Pretty soon it becomes plain that "preaching to the choir" is the best that can be hoped for here anymore so anything we previously hoped would foster meaningful discussion out in Filibuster at large gets put into the clubhouse threads instead.  If the clubhouse thread is going to devolve into s***storm threads because you think it needs an alternative viewpoint' then that is unfortunate.

 

But this is all a grand experiment anyway.  It's going to become what it's going to become.

 

That is my response.

 

I guess what my point of contention is, instead of debate, it's "let's post it in the clubghouse so we don't have a bunch of whiney ass opposition posts"... that's the difficulty in all of this.

 

I agree when Rex said ... there's been some really good debate. Flaxx, you're the ultimate gentleman and a beer connseiuer (sp) that we'd all be glad to kick back a few with I'm sure, if the opportunity presented itself.

 

It's just so trying - when you read nothing but beat down after beat down after beat down of things - and I'm not talking about just a Dem response to a Bush thing but also a Repub response to a Clinton thing.

 

These are certainly trying times we live in.

 

I'm going to split this out of the thread.

Edited March 7, 2006 by kapkomet

[Rex Kickass]

I guess the answer is to reply to actual responses and ignore the sniping. At least not unless the sniping is really funny.

[kapkomet]

I guess the answer is to reply to actual responses and ignore the sniping. At least not unless the sniping is really funny.

I guess.

 

The "race to outrace the opposition" is what fuels a lot of this. The blogs and instant information really just bombards us with useless, and often not factual, information. And it plays on all of our emotions, no matter what your political take is.

[FlaSoxxJim]

I guess what my point of contention is, instead of debate, it's "let's post it in the clubghouse so we don't have a bunch of whiney ass opposition posts"...  that's the difficulty in all of this.

 

I agree when Rex said ... there's been some really good debate.  Flaxx, you're the ultimate gentleman and a beer connseiuer (sp) that we'd all be glad to kick back a few with I'm sure, if the opportunity presented itself.

 

It's just so trying - when you read nothing but beat down after beat down after beat down of things - and I'm not talking about just a Dem response to a Bush thing but also a Repub response to a Clinton thing.

 

These are certainly trying times we live in.

 

I'm going to split this out of the thread.

the respect is mutual, which is what makes the fighting and flaming so frustrating for all. Ditto with SS2k6. And though he's not in this current discussion, dittto with YAS. There are a lot of things we all don't see eye to eye on, but disagreement shouldn't be construed as a lack of respect for the individuals involved.

 

We're living in really divisive times, that is certainly true. The whole country is edgy, and we reflect that here. I agree sometimes "my side" looks like it's got nothing but "beat down after beat down after beat down" to offer. But honsetly, with revelation after revelation about the way things are done and how the public has been intentionally misinformed about so much, it's hard not to sound like a broken record. Then if you continue to post new verses of the broken record you get slammed. If you don't post you run the risk of looking like you are past the point of caring when really you are just tired of the :banghead and the and the .

 

Really, most times I'd be better off concentrating on the and the and especially the

[Soxy]

I think debate is sort of a too nice word for what goes on a lot of the time here. Debate to me entails actually being receptive and listening to the other side. That doesn't really happen much around here. I think a lot of time instead of listening to the message behind someone's belief it's usually dismissed before any actual discussion can take place.

 

I wouldn't say this whole forum has made me more liberal or more likely to vote straight ticket, really it's just left me with changed opinions about some posters who are just really rude and disrespectful.

Edited March 7, 2006 by Soxy

[Wong & Owens]

Well, i'm officially confused.

[kapkomet]

the respect is mutual, which is what makes the fighting and flaming so frustrating for all.  Ditto with SS2k6.  And though he's not in this current discussion, dittto with YAS.  There are a lot of things we all don't see eye to eye on, but disagreement shouldn't be construed as a lack of respect for the individuals involved.

 

We're living in really divisive times, that is certainly true.  The whole country is edgy, and we reflect that here.  I agree sometimes "my side" looks like it's got nothing but "beat down after beat down after beat down" to offer.  But honsetly, with revelation after revelation about the way things are done and how the public has been intentionally misinformed about so much, it's hard not to sound like a broken record.  Then if you continue to post new verses of the broken record you get slammed.  If you don't post you run the risk of looking like you are past the point of caring when really you are just tired of the  :banghead and the  and the    .

 

Really, most times I'd be better off concentrating on the  and the  and especially the     

It is the offseason you know.

[kapkomet]

Well, i'm officially confused.

Why yes, yes you are. Thanks for playing!

 

This is a spin off of another thread. That's probably what makes it confusing. Sorry about that.

[Controlled Chaos]

I'm kind of in this boat.....

 

If you don't post you run the risk of looking like you are past the point of caring when really you are just tired of the :banghead and the and the and the

 

But for now it suits me...I read what you guys write on both sides and make my opinions from there...I usually just keep them to myself now...

[kapkomet]

I think debate is sort of a too nice word for what goes on a lot of the time here. Debate to me entails actually being receptive and listening to the other side. That doesn't really happen much around here. I think a lot of time instead of listening to the message behind someone's belief it's usually dismissed before any actual discussion can take place.

 

I wouldn't say this whole forum has made me more liberal or more likely to vote straight ticket, really it's just left me with changed opinions about some posters who are just really rude and disrespectful.

But you know what? I think that's my entire point. I'll speak for myself, I know I've come out swinging a few times at least in appearance with my posts, when in "real life" I don't care. So, in appearance, as a poster I appear rude and disrespectful, when I really didn't mean it that way in the first place.

 

I think that most get so wrapped up in "defending a viewpoint" that oftentimes we forget that there's a real person on the other side of the screen, who a lot of times we would all probably really respect, but disagree with on viewpoints.

 

I feel like we've lost that here, and if we don't return to that, we will lose this forum.

[Soxy]

But you know what?  I think that's my entire point.  I'll speak for myself, I know I've come out swinging a few times at least in appearance with my posts, when in "real life" I don't care.  So, in appearance, as a poster I appear rude and disrespectful, when I really didn't mean it that way in the first place.

I agree, the stuff I actually care about (with a few exceptions) I don't even read about on this board because I know my opinions won't be received respectfully and that I will not be so nice when I post in those threads. I really think that would make a much better policy: if this topic is so near and dear to your heart that you can't play nice with the others then you shouldn't play at all.

 

And I'm not trying to use that fact that I have lost respect for some people or whatever as leverage against them, or to put them off. But the problem with the internet is that you only see what people say and have no real sense of who they are--I think this place fosters a really nice sense of community. But since this forum started (really since the last election) I feel less and less like I belong to this community, and less and less like I want to belong here. If this forum is as civilized as some of us can be about stuff we care about then, damn, we're pretty pathetic.

[Mplssoxfan]

I don't post in a lot of these threads for a number of reasons, good and bad. One of the good reasons is that someone who is close to my viewpoint has usually expressed, more eloquently, something akin to my thoughts. There are a good deal of intelligent people here, on all sides of an issue.

 

Which brings me to one of the bad reasons I don't post much. Sometimes intelligence turns into the desire to prove that you're smarter than everyone else, and your arguments are sounder. What really happens, in a lot of cases, is the online equivalent of, "If I'm louder, my argument is better." I'm certain that if we were sitting face to face, we'd agree to disagree and steer the conversation to something we can all agree on, but we don't feel the need to do that here, for whatever reason.

 

Another bad reason I don't feel compelled to post much is that I, too often for my own tastes, can't find anything humorous to contribute. Obviously, that hasn't stopped me this time, but it does a great deal of the time. I honestly think that laughing about the bunch plying their trade on the shores of the Potomac (and then trying to change things, of course) is far better for the soul than b****ing about them.

 

Maybe we all need to realize this: we're probably not going to change anyone's opinion on a subejct by what we post here. It would be nice if someone read a well-reasoned opinion, suppported by incontrevertible facts, and changed their mind, but it probably isn't going to happen. We all have experiences and life lessons that have shaped our worldviews. No offense intended, but I seriously doubt that the musings of someone I know only from the interactions on a baseball message board will change my opinion of (fill in the blank).

[NorthSideSox72]

5 things I'd like to say to my fellow 'busters...

 

1. SS2K5, Kap, Rex, Flaxx, Balta, Chaos... I don't want any of you to stop posting. I don't agree with everything any of you say, but I enjoy the times when I can interact with all of you in intelligent discussion. It happens. Yes, it sometimes seems like it is the minority of the time. But it is there, and I would miss it. So to you regulars (not just the listed, but others I have forgotten), I hope that you stick around.

 

2. I agree that ignoring the sniping and baiting is the right way to go - though I myself don't always hold to that. There are people who post little one and two line agitations and flames in here, either out of laziness or trying to bait someone to become angry. I try to ignore them. Sometimes I succeed.

 

3. I must say, no matter the tone, I have learned things in the last few months posting here. And not just about human nature and blogging. I have learned a multitude of factual information that I was not aware of. And I have gained new perspectives on some issues, and sometimes I have even had changes of heart. If others are not learning anything, that makes me sad. I see a lot of things to learn here.

 

4. I do think there is some truth to the argument that the reason there is so much Bush flaming in here is that this administration has done so many things so poorly. Even the people on this board on the conservative side acknowledge this. But there are other contributing factors that are perhaps less well-reasoned, or just circumstantial. Some people are lazy, and want an easy target. Others just like to find something in politics to be angry about. But there is also the fact that we have SO much access to SO much information, that GWB has become by far the most naked President in history. So, yeah, we see a lot of negatives. I think we need to keep that media penetration and information availability in mind when analyzing our perspectives on this administration.

 

5. Thank you. To everyone I have talked, debating, argued, agreed and disagreed with on this board. I feel I am more whole because of my exposure to your thoughts. Thanks.

[EvilMonkey]

4. I do think there is some truth to the argument that the reason there is so much Bush flaming in here is that this administration has done so many things so poorly.  Even the people on this board on the conservative side acknowledge this.  But there are other contributing factors that are perhaps less well-reasoned, or just circumstantial.  Some people are lazy, and want an easy target.  Others just like to find something in politics to be angry about. But there is also the fact that we have SO much access to SO much information, that GWB has become by far the most naked President in history. So, yeah, we see a lot of negatives.  I think we need to keep that media penetration and information availability in mind when analyzing our perspectives on this administration.

 

This part is so true. I can only imagin what it will be like for the next President, and the one after that, whichever party they are from.

[mr_genius]

I don't know, i've never been offended by anything someone said here.

 

but i'm kinda hard to offend.

[Soxy]

I don't know, i've never been offended by anything someone said here.

 

but i'm kinda hard to offend.

That sounds like a challenge. . .

[Mplssoxfan]

I don't know, i've never been offended by anything someone said here.

 

but i'm kinda hard to offend.

 

I was offended once. But I was in a pissy mood.

[mr_genius]

That sounds like a challenge. . .

 

 

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Hey now, Kap! Some of us don't have a bunch of free time -- like me, who for the next month has to do nothing but sleep, eat, lesson plan, grade and portfolio work. So pardon moi if there is no piece from me echoing what many say in this thread.