Busted for sure this time... ?

[Balta1701]

Other report: that book says Bonds was using Andro (which baseball had not banned but which is now banned and tested for) as early as '97.

[rventura23]

:headshake

seriously

I hope Bonds doesnt break the record

Its a shame, but certainly no surprise, that he took steriods

[YASNY]

First, I did no such thing as direct anything away from him. Pointing out that others have done the same thing - proven or not at this point - and them not being gone after like rabid dogs is valid, IMO. It happens all the time. Was Jordan called out for his gambling or womanizing...? Even after his father was murdered the press still refused to comment on what everyone else knew. Did Cal Ripkin get s*** when he assulted his wife...? And even a bit closer to home.. Sosa... even after the cork was there for all to see barely a negative word was spoken until Grace opened his mouth about what a asshole he was. And then there's the darling McGwire... Even after that asshole sat in front of congress and s*** on that poor man who's son KILLED HIMSELF from using Andro and other roids - just like his "hero" Mark... the press still barely made a peep. Why... because they were nice to the press. If Bonds was a media darling you honestly think these two guys would have spent hour after hour, day after day, week after week, etc, etc... digging up as much dirt as they could...? I'm not blaming anyone but Bonds. If you interpreted differently, you misunderstood. I'm laughing at the witch hunt - which absolutely positively NEEDS to come out - the use of steroids - but the way that it was done is hysterical. And all the people calling for his demise... it's funny. I wonder how they would react if it were their "guy" on their "team".  :rolly

 

And you can bet high it's not far off...

 

As for him hitting his girlfriend.. I'm sure he did it - as she's testified to the fact. And it reminds me of a story when a warm and fuzzy to the media guy did something similar and didn't get reported on... You may have heard of him... Sammy Sosa. Nearly KILLED his wife with a rum bottle.

And BTW, I wasn't comparing Dykstra, Daulton, Williams, etc, to Bonds.. just making a comment that steriod use has been obvious for a long time. Yet because now they have a jerk personality to nail, they go all out.

 

 

That statement is one that I find worrisome.

[Middle Buffalo]

And then there's the darling McGwire... Even after that asshole sat in front of congress and s*** on that poor man who's son KILLED HIMSELF from using Andro and other roids - just like his "hero" Mark... the press still barely made a peep. Why... because they were nice to the press. If Bonds was a media darling you honestly think these two guys would have spent hour after hour, day after day, week after week, etc, etc... digging up as much dirt as they could...? I'm not blaming anyone but Bonds. If you interpreted differently, you misunderstood. I'm laughing at the witch hunt - which absolutely positively NEEDS to come out - the use of steroids - but the way that it was done is hysterical.

McGwire was not a media darling prior to 1998. In fact, it was the race with Sammy that loosened him up and made him see that the media is not out to get athletes. Before then, he was considered to be a jerk by many. I remember Terry Boers talking about that during that HR race.

 

Also, McGwire was the only guy who did get hit hard by the media and by Congress last March. Sammy got a free pass, Palmeiro looked like a hero, Schilling got away with changing his tune on the prevalence of steroids in the game.

 

Is it a witch hunt against Bonds? Sure. But when you look someone in the eye and tell them you haven't cheated (when it's pretty evident that you did), the natural reaction of a true journalist would be to prove the liar wrong with facts.

[soxhawks]

McGwire was not a media darling prior to 1998.  In fact, it was the race with Sammy that loosened him up and made him see that the media is not out to get athletes.  Before then, he was considered to be a jerk by many.  I remember Terry Boers talking about that during that HR race.

 

Also, McGwire was the only guy who did get hit hard by the media and by Congress last March.  Sammy got a free pass, Palmeiro looked like a hero, Schilling got away with changing his tune on the prevalence of steroids in the game.

 

Is it a witch hunt against Bonds?  Sure.  But when you look someone in the eye and tell them you haven't cheated (when it's pretty evident that you did), the natural reaction of a true journalist would be to prove the liar wrong with facts.

 

The exact reason i am cheering for Bonds is because the media and the general public are just so against the guy it is ridiculous. there are not two players i hate more than McGuire and Sosa, and it does seem like the media is overly attacking bonds while letting those two skate by. The media can make or break a player, and i will not let their bulls*** bring down one player while letting another go by. I gurantee if Bonds had the attitude and persona of a Mark Grace the media wouldnt lifet a finger, but because they all hate Bonds they have to make it personal

[Steff]

Is it a witch hunt against Bonds?  Sure.  But when you look someone in the eye and tell them you haven't cheated (when it's pretty evident that you did), the natural reaction of a true journalist would be to prove the liar wrong with facts.

 

 

 

Agree.

 

 

Just wish they went after everyone with the same zest. The sports world would smell a lot less.

[whitesoxfan101]

Agree.

Just wish they went after everyone with the same zest. The sports world would smell a lot less.

 

I agree they should go after everybody else as hard too, but everybody else didn't hit 73 in a season, over 700 (and counting) in a career, gain 60 pounds of "muscle" in their mid 30's (as well as all of a sudden doubling their HR/AB rate), have their head grow, be a complete in denial asshole about it to everybody, and break all kinds of baseball records, and have a PERSONAL TRAINER sent to prison for steriod crimes related to a steroid infested science lab in the city the player plays in. Of course they are going to go the hardest after Bonds, the circumstantial (and now physical) evidence is overwhelming.

[Steff]

I agree they should go after everybody else as hard too, but everybody else didn't hit 73 in a season, over 700 (and counting) in a career, gain 60 pounds of "muscle" in their mid 30's (as well as all of a sudden doubling their HR/AB rate), have their head grow, be a complete in denial asshole about it to everybody, and break all kinds of baseball records, and have a PERSONAL TRAINER sent to prison for steriod crimes related to a steroid infested science lab in the city the player plays in.  Of course they are going to go the hardest after Bonds, the circumstantial (and now physical) evidence is overwhelming.

 

 

And the Sosa's and McGwire's and Anderson's and Giambi's of the world thank you.

[whitesoxfan101]

And the Sosa's and McGwire's and Anderson's and Giambi's of the world thank you.

 

No, they thank their lucky stars that they weren't the ones getting supplies from the BALCO lab that was raided.

[Soxbadger]

How did Palmeiro look like a hero when Congress was thinking about charging him with perjury?

 

None of this matters, its all water under the bridge. Bonds never was caught, he never had a bat break that had cork in it, he never was found cheating on the field. All anyone will ever have against him is inneundo and rumor. I doubt they will try and prosecute for perjury, Im not even sure if he was sworn in, or what exactly the type of grand jury proceeding it was. I am sure that Bonds had a pretty good lawyer so its doubtful he went in and said something stupid. Probably spent hours prepping him, etc.

 

In the end, so what?

 

Bonds broke unwritten rules of baseball that were not even enforced until recently. Should we go back and look at every pitcher who may have thrown a spit ball or doctored it, etc?

 

As a game part of the unwritten rules are that its okay so long as you do not get caught, and that will never change.

[whitesoxfan101]

Ummm first of all, this new book changes it from innuendo and rumor into fact, these are court documents and grand jury testimony. Second, comparing a spitball to steroids, something that is illegal in the United States, is quite silly. Although I agree with you, Bonds won't be prosecuted criminally, he would have been indicted by now if that was the case.

[Soxbadger]

Its not fact, its in a book, written by people who want to make money. A book that calls Bonds a liar, cheat, etc is more likely to sell than a book that says "Bonds is a great philanthropic human being."

 

As for steriods being illegal, what does that have to do with the price of oranges?

 

We are talking about baseball, not about the US. During some parts of baseball drinking alcohol was illegal, does that mean if a baseball player drank during prohibition that we should revoke their records?

 

No, they are mutually exclusive. US laws have nothing to do with MLB, except to the extent MLB is governed by US law.

 

A spit ball, like steriods gave players a leg up. Who cares if they are illegal or legal, no one would be caring if the book came out and said that "Bonds has been smoking mad amounts of weed for the last 20 years". The issue is whether he gained an advantage playing, atleast for MLB, not the legality of the actions.

[samclemens]

anybody seen how strong the language towards bonds is in the press? even at espn, there are mentions of a new invesitigation by selig and the MLB (one guy said selig "has to respond" to something like this). what does everybody think the chances of bonds being suspended or even banned are?

[Gregory Pratt]

anybody seen how strong the language towards bonds is in the press? even at espn, there are mentions of a new invesitigation by selig and the MLB (one guy said selig "has to respond" to something like this). what does everybody think the chances of bonds being suspended or even banned are?

 

Pete Rose was banned for less than this. Shoeless Joe was banned for less than this.

 

Barry Bonds should be booted out of baseball and banned.

 

I believe, on that note, that Selig will do it. I think he'll wait until the WBC is done with, though, and as soon as that ends, right before the Season Starts --

 

Barry Gone!

 

At least, that's what I think should occur if Selig has a set of balls. I'm not sure he does, however, considering his refusal to reinstate Rose and the fact that he lied to him about that, but I think he'll take action here.

[whitesoxfan101]

Its not fact, its in a book, written by people who want to make money. A book that calls Bonds a liar, cheat, etc is more likely to sell than a book that says "Bonds is a great philanthropic human being."

 

As for steriods being illegal, what does that have to do with the price of oranges?

 

We are talking about baseball, not about the US. During some parts of baseball drinking alcohol was illegal, does that mean if a baseball player drank during prohibition that we should revoke their records?

 

No, they are mutually exclusive. US laws have nothing to do with MLB, except to the extent MLB is governed by US law.

 

A spit ball, like steriods gave players a leg up. Who cares if they are illegal or legal, no one would be caring if the book came out and said that "Bonds has been smoking mad amounts of weed for the last 20 years". The issue is whether he gained an advantage playing, atleast for MLB, not the legality of the actions.

 

I enjoy debates, however I can't refute a post that has not a single legitimate fact in it. The book is written entirely based on GRANDY JURY TESTIMONY AND FEDERAL COURT DOCUMENTED INFO. So in others words, you either believe the courts, or Bonds. End of story. And then you go on to say baseball is above U.S. Law so who cares if the players are on steroids? Ugh.

[Gregory Pratt]

I enjoy debates, however I can't refute a post that has not a single legitimate fact in it.  The book is written entirely based on GRANDY JURY TESTIMONY AND FEDERAL COURT DOCUMENTED INFO.  So in others words, you either believe the courts, or Bonds.  End of story.  And then you go on to say baseball is above U.S. Law so who cares if the players are on steroids?  Ugh.

 

In addition, the idea that players are above US Law is ridiculous. Shoeless Joe was found guilty of no crime -- weren't they ALL acquitted by the Courts? -- but MLB decided it had been disgraced by the gamblers and that warranted banning.

 

I think the same line of thinking shall take over here.

[samclemens]

Its not fact, its in a book, written by people who want to make money. A book that calls Bonds a liar, cheat, etc is more likely to sell than a book that says "Bonds is a great philanthropic human being."

 

As for steriods being illegal, what does that have to do with the price of oranges?

 

We are talking about baseball, not about the US. During some parts of baseball drinking alcohol was illegal, does that mean if a baseball player drank during prohibition that we should revoke their records?

 

No, they are mutually exclusive. US laws have nothing to do with MLB, except to the extent MLB is governed by US law.

 

A spit ball, like steriods gave players a leg up. Who cares if they are illegal or legal, no one would be caring if the book came out and said that "Bonds has been smoking mad amounts of weed for the last 20 years". The issue is whether he gained an advantage playing, atleast for MLB, not the legality of the actions.

 

your post makes no sense. since when are baseball players above the law?

 

bonds apologists at this point just come off as deaf blind and dumb. no other way to say it.

[Balta1701]

In addition, the idea that players are above US Law is ridiculous. Shoeless Joe was found guilty of no crime -- weren't they ALL acquitted by the Courts? -- but MLB decided it had been disgraced by the gamblers and that warranted banning.

 

I think the same line of thinking shall take over here.

During the investigation, two players — Cicotte and Jackson — confessed, and the eight players were tried for their role in the fix. Prior to the trial, key evidence went missing from Cook County Courthouse, including the signed confessions of Cicotte and Jackson, who subsequently recanted their confessions. The players were acquitted. Some years later, the missing confessions reappeared in the possession of Comiskey's lawyer.

(wikipedia). Whether or not there was a guilty plea, there were admissions.

 

Also, even beyond the missing confessions (which couldn't be entered into evidence because they were missing)...the Jurors were asked to hold to a very strict standard in determining guilt.

 

The outcome of the trial may have been sealed when Judge Friend charged the jury.  He told them that to return a guilty verdict they must find the players conspired "to defraud the public and others, and not merely throw ballgames."  (The New York Times editorialized that the judge's instruction was like saying the "state must prove the defendant intended to murder his victim, not merely cut his head off.")

[southsider2k5]

your post makes no sense. since when are baseball players above the law?

 

bonds apologists at this point just come off as deaf blind and dumb. no other way to say it.

 

Great arguement. Sam Clemens would be proud.

[Gregory Pratt]

(wikipedia).  Whether or not there was a guilty plea, there were admissions.

 

Also, even beyond the missing confessions (which couldn't be entered into evidence because they were missing)...the Jurors were asked to hold to a very strict standard in determining guilt.

 

The point stands that they were acquitted and technically not guilty of anything. My point was that there's more evidence on Bonds than there ever was on Shoeless Joe.

[soxhawks]

Pete Rose was banned for less than this. Shoeless Joe was banned for less than this.

 

Barry Bonds should be booted out of baseball and banned.

 

I believe, on that note, that Selig will do it. I think he'll wait until the WBC is done with, though, and as soon as that ends, right before the Season Starts --

 

Barry Gone!

 

At least, that's what I think should occur if Selig has a set of balls. I'm not sure he does, however, considering his refusal to reinstate Rose and the fact that he lied to him about that, but I think he'll take action here.

 

But just Bonds acording to you not Sosa, Mcguire, Giambe, and others. Steroids were legal until just a couple of years ago in baseball. Last I checked throwing a world series and betting on baseball were clear rules. You cannot kick someone out of the league just because you hate him

[southsider2k5]

But just Bonds acording to you not Sosa, Mcguire, Giambe, and others.  Steroids were legal until just a couple of years ago in baseball.  Last I checked throwing a world series and betting on baseball were clear rules.  You cannot kick someone out of the league just because you hate him

 

And therein lies the rub. Bonds broke no baseball rule that we know of, unless they have evidence of his cheating since the rule against juicing went into effect. It sucks because I want to see none of the juicers rewarded for cheating, but in essesence it is baseballs fault for being sissies all of those years and not demanding that players not cheat.

[Balta1701]

But just Bonds acording to you not Sosa, Mcguire, Giambe, and others.  Steroids were legal until just a couple of years ago in baseball.  Last I checked throwing a world series and betting on baseball were clear rules.  You cannot kick someone out of the league just because you hate him

Steroids were NOT legal in baseball until a couple years ago. Some specific substances, like Andro, were legal until 2004. However, baseball banned steroids, including several of the ones Bonds is accused of having used, under commissioner Fay Vincent in 1991. The league however never came up with an appropriate testing regime to enforce that ban until recent years.

 

In other words, they were still violating the stated rules of baseball...but they were doing so under the "it's not illegal unless we're caught" out clause.

[Gregory Pratt]

But just Bonds acording to you not Sosa, Mcguire, Giambe, and others.  Steroids were legal until just a couple of years ago in baseball.  Last I checked throwing a world series and betting on baseball were clear rules.  You cannot kick someone out of the league just because you hate him

 

Is there a legitimate smoking gun against those guys? I think they're pieces of s*** -- all of them -- but Palmeiro and Bonds are the ones who can reasonably be banned, particularly Palmeiro. It's a matter of proof that keeps McGuire and Sosa alive.

 

And therein lies the rub.  Bonds broke no baseball rule that we know of, unless they have evidence of his cheating since the rule against juicing went into effect.  It sucks because I want to see none of the juicers rewarded for cheating, but in essesence it is baseballs fault for being sissies all of those years and not demanding that players not cheat.

 

Apparently he's been lying his ass off. That's good reason.

 

Besides, I believe the Commissioner can Ban for reasons such as, "Disgracing the game."

[Soxbadger]

Has anyone here actually read the book?

 

So your saying I have no facts when you have not teven read the book?

 

Some of these arguments are asinine and you have the audacity to attack me.

 

Go back and check my record, I was the only person who said unequivocally:

 

They will not press charges against Wayne Gretzky.

 

No one here is saying that Bonds is above the law, I am just telling you how it is from a prosecutor's point of view. Unless there is something in that book that is so compelling that not one person would acquit, they are not going to touch the case.

 

First of all in a court case you have rules of evidence. In a book, you have nothing. Hearsay is perfectly fine in a book, but in a Bonds case you are not going to be able to touch it. Second if it is a criminal trial you have, beyond a reasonable doubt. That means all Bonds lawyer will have to prove to 1 juror is that there is some doubt whether or not Bonds actually knew what he is doing. Third, you are not going to get anyone to testify against Bonds. These are not flipper witnesses at 26th and California, Bonds has more to offer than the US govt.

 

That is the reality of the situation, you want to believe the media, go ahead, they dont know jack about the law. You honestly think 2 reporters have more information that the prosecutor who was handling BALCO, they used the grand jury testimony for god sakes.

 

Do you even know how a Grand Jury is different from a petit jury (normal one)?

 

And god damn now you go and compare Bonds to Rose and the Black Sox.

 

1) The Black Sox were caught throwing the World Series. That is cheating to lose. The White Sox were destroyed by their Comiskey, and the first Baseball Commisioner Landis. Baseball did not care how a court proceeding went, as in a court proceeding it was going to be almost impossible to convict any of them. They even admitted doing it, and still they were unconvictable (now tell me how they are going to convict Bonds haha). To make a lesson of the players Landis suspended them for life to make sure that baseball had legitimacy and at the urging of the owners et all. Bonds will have plenty of support within the MLB community, no one is going to want to see Bonds kicked out and next thing you know the Giants are pissed and want Big Mac gone, then next thing you know every team is attacking every team. That makes a whole lot of sense.

 

2) Pete Rose, if you look at the history of the original Pete Rose ban, it was not supposed to be a life time ban. Reports are that Giammati and Rose had a deal that he was going to be readmitted, but unfortuantely that same season Giammati died of a heart attack. Fay Vincent took over who was a complete dick and makes the ban stick. He also tried to make Steinbrenner resign and a whole list of s***,

Vincent

 

Now you want to come in and argue with me, fine, but here are the parameters.

 

In order for you to refer to the book, you need to actually bring the words from the book. Quote the passage that has the grand jury testimony and then post the fact that shows beyond a reasonable doubt that bonds was actually lieing.

 

Im not arguing Bonds ever did steriods, I really could care less. Im just saying that this is hype, and the book wont unconver some great conspiracy or get anything done. All it will do is sell a million or so copies and not even provide as good of a read as Canseco's book, which the media immediately discredited and called him a liar.

 

I enjoy debates too, its my job.

Edited March 9, 2006 by Soxbadger