NorthSideSox72 Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 The hypothetical thread in here today got me to thinking... wouldn't questions like that be more challenging if they were real situations? Nothing against hypotheticals, they are useful exercises. But I decided to lay out here a real choice from a real scenario, which I think really brings out analytical mindset regarding the law. So here it is... A 19 year-old college student is caught making fake ID's. The cops find this accidentally, but the kid's dorm room is a veritable orgy of evidence - template, partially completed ID's, completed ID's, checks and cash from clients, tools and papers, and a laptop computer with the ID designs on it. Turns out he has made and sold about a dozen of them to students (in one case to a dorm floor RA or whatever you call them). The cops followed normal procedures throughout the event, so you can assume there were no legal complications or loopholes to be found. The kid is arrested, and marched out of the dorm in handcuffs, eventually spending the night in jail before his family can bail him out the next day. The kid has no previous criminal record, and an excellent academic record. By state law (in the state this occurred in), the offender is guilty of roughly a dozen counts of a class D felony, punishable by up to 4 years in prison (for each count, potentially). In theory, the crime could be pushed to federal jurisdiction as well, because the ID's were for one state, made in another, given to students from a bunch of others (I don't know the exact criminal violation at the federal level). He is also, of course, guilty of violating some university regulations and dorm rules and all that jazz (not sure how serious that would have been, maybe kicked out of the dorm or something). So I ask this... what do you charge him with, and do you send him to jail? There is one argument that, given he was guilty of a felony (multiple counts), he should do the jail time. He should be treated no different than similar offenders who, say, performed a small-scale burglary or was convicted of selling heroin. Equal treatment. Or, on the other hand, there is the argument that this 19-year old college student would probably have his life ruined by such jail time, and that if you choose a lighter sentence (probation, school expulsion, community service, some combination), he could still be a valuable member of society. And it was a non-violent crime. Judgement call. Bonus question - what do you do with those who purchased the ID's? Charge with misdemeanor? Flip them on the kid? Probation or something? What do you do? I'd love to hear answers and explanations for you positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Quick question, were the fake IDs made with real people's information or were they complete fakes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(Queen Prawn @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 01:22 PM) Quick question, were the fake IDs made with real people's information or were they complete fakes? Complete fakes, if I recall correctly. Some of their own correct data with some artificial information. Fake from scratch (though the template scanned in was probably someone's real ID at some point). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Since he is a first time offender and identities were not stolen when making the fakes, I would shoot for misdemeanors with a TON of community service and a couple years (2-5?) probation. As for the users of the IDs, if it is a first time offense, charge them as well with a misdemeanor (is that what it would be for a fake ID user?) but with a lighter sentence than the ID maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I'm no legal expert, but I'd say that he could likely be charged with multiple counts of fraud. If I were the prosecutor, I wouldn't push for jail time if the kid is in college and has no prior record. A hefty fine and probation should be sufficient. If I were the university, however, I'd consider expelling the kid for committing a felony on university property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Whoa. Good question. I'd have to look at things from the point of view of what was the purpose of this fake ID business and the damage that could have been done to society in general by the nature of the 'business'. Was this kid selling fake ID's to 19 year olds that wanted to get into a bar or was he selling to terrorists that need the ID's to operate within this country. Of course, there a lot of 'what ifs' that can thrown around here. You have to have faith in the powers that be to get an accurate read on the circumstances and that they would act accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 01:29 PM) I'm no legal expert, but I'd say that he could likely be charged with multiple counts of fraud. If I were the prosecutor, I wouldn't push for jail time if the kid is in college and has no prior record. A hefty fine and probation should be sufficient. If I were the university, however, I'd consider expelling the kid for committing a felony on university property. FYI, yes, the particular offense of making and selling false identifying papers is a manner of fraud in the state in question. Fraud with a deceptive instrument may be another legal term one could use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(YASNY @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 01:29 PM) Whoa. Good question. I'd have to look at things from the point of view of what was the purpose of this fake ID business and the damage that could have been done to society in general by the nature of the 'business'. Was this kid selling fake ID's to 19 year olds that wanted to get into a bar or was he selling to terrorists that need the ID's to operate within this country. Of course, there a lot of 'what ifs' that can thrown around here. You have to have faith in the powers that be to get an accurate read on the circumstances and that they would act accordingly. I don't believe there was anything on their minds aside from getting into the bars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balance Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I find myself agreeing with YASNY and WCSox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I think that if you can verify the kid was only dealing the ID's to kids who wanted to get into bars...this case does suggest leniency as presented. Anything beyond what is presented here...like additional people involved in getting supplies or stealing ID formats, or a wider sales market, and you have to consider something larger in terms of charges. But I think community service and probation here is probably the right maneuver. A long term of it, but I just don't think jail time fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 12:32 PM) I think that if you can verify the kid was only dealing the ID's to kids who wanted to get into bars...this case does suggest leniency as presented. Anything beyond what is presented here...like additional people involved in getting supplies or stealing ID formats, or a wider sales market, and you have to consider something larger in terms of charges. But I think community service and probation here is probably the right maneuver. A long term of it, but I just don't think jail time fits. Agreed. The kid deserves more than a slap on the wrist. Maybe a slap upside the head would be more appropriate, if you catch my drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 10:32 AM) But I think community service and probation here is probably the right maneuver. A long term of it, but I just don't think jail time fits. Wow, I agree with Balta! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(YASNY @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 10:34 AM) Agreed. The kid deserves more than a slap on the wrist. Maybe a slap upside the head would be more appropriate, if you catch my drift. It always comes back to torture with you guys doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 12:35 PM) It always comes back to torture with you guys doesn't it? LMAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 I'll add one twisting question to further the discussion. Sometime later, after this thread has been talked out, I'll reveal what actually happened. Question: Since the majority here seem to think that jail time isn't warranted, I have to then ask... what about the guy who dealt marijuana? Or the one who purchased a handgun illegally? These are similar-level crimes, and most of the time, those offenders would go to jail. But those crimes are also more often commited by people less fortunate. Does anyone see the potential quagmire here with the rich kid at the private college getting off, but the punk on the street going to jail? I am not endorsing one view or the other - just pointing out the incongruity there, and seeing what you all think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(YASNY @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 01:29 PM) Whoa. Good question. I'd have to look at things from the point of view of what was the purpose of this fake ID business and the damage that could have been done to society in general by the nature of the 'business'. Was this kid selling fake ID's to 19 year olds that wanted to get into a bar or was he selling to terrorists that need the ID's to operate within this country. Of course, there a lot of 'what ifs' that can thrown around here. You have to have faith in the powers that be to get an accurate read on the circumstances and that they would act accordingly. The second part of that question is how do you know if they are just wanting to get into bars or not? Its not like they are going to tell you that they are terrorists looking to blow up a building... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 01:43 PM) I'll add one twisting question to further the discussion. Sometime later, after this thread has been talked out, I'll reveal what actually happened. Question: Since the majority here seem to think that jail time isn't warranted, I have to then ask... what about the guy who dealt marijuana? Or the one who purchased a handgun illegally? These are similar-level crimes, and most of the time, those offenders would go to jail. But those crimes are also more often commited by people less fortunate. Does anyone see the potential quagmire here with the rich kid at the private college getting off, but the punk on the street going to jail? I am not endorsing one view or the other - just pointing out the incongruity there, and seeing what you all think. If it was just maryjane he was selling, again community service and probation (jail cells are at too much of a premium to waste on some dude selling weed). The handgun...not 100% sure on what I think. It seems if it is being attained illegally, he isn't likely getting it just for target practice. Just for that reason, I would say a little jail time (30-90 days maybe), some probation and community service. Did I pass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(Queen Prawn @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 12:48 PM) If it was just maryjane he was selling, again community service and probation (jail cells are at too much of a premium to waste on some dude selling weed). The handgun...not 100% sure on what I think. It seems if it is being attained illegally, he isn't likely getting it just for target practice. Just for that reason, I would say a little jail time (30-90 days maybe), some probation and community service. Did I pass? I agree. The illegal handgun is a bit more serious as you have to assume, like you said, that it isn't just for target practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 01:45 PM) The second part of that question is how do you know if they are just wanting to get into bars or not? Its not like they are going to tell you that they are terrorists looking to blow up a building... And not only do we not know, but even the seller doesn't know or control what they would be used for. Probably just to get into a bar - but who knows? That is a good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(Queen Prawn @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 10:48 AM) If it was just maryjane he was selling, again community service and probation (jail cells are at too much of a premium to waste on some dude selling weed). Problem is...one of the big reasons they're at such a premium...marijuana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 10:50 AM) And not only do we not know, but even the seller doesn't know or control what they would be used for. Probably just to get into a bar - but who knows? That is a good point. Well, then there's a couple of recourses. He clearly knows who he sold them to. First of all there are checks, but secondly, you have the kid. Is the kid going to cooperate and tell the cops who he sold them to, or is he going to refuse to cooperate with the cops? If he refuses to cooperate, then jail time should be an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 01:52 PM) Is the kid going to cooperate and tell the cops who he sold them to, or is he going to refuse to cooperate with the cops? If he refuses to cooperate, then jail time should be an option. Agree 100% on this aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(Queen Prawn @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 10:48 AM) If it was just maryjane he was selling, again community service and probation (jail cells are at too much of a premium to waste on some dude selling weed). That depends on how much he was selling. A few dimebags would warrant community service and probation. Ten ounces, on the other hand, would be a completely different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 01:52 PM) Well, then there's a couple of recourses. He clearly knows who he sold them to. First of all there are checks, but secondly, you have the kid. Is the kid going to cooperate and tell the cops who he sold them to, or is he going to refuse to cooperate with the cops? If he refuses to cooperate, then jail time should be an option. Let me just say that in this situation, it couldn't matter less if the kid cooperated or not. We had all the evidence we needed, because he saved the pictures and other info for each ID on his laptop, which we confiscated, analyzed, removed evidence from, and then destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 10, 2006 -> 12:50 PM) And not only do we not know, but even the seller doesn't know or control what they would be used for. Probably just to get into a bar - but who knows? That is a good point. That's why I said earlier that you have to have faith in the powers that be to determine what is actually going on. If the kid is selling to fellow students that are 19 and want to get into bars to get laid, that's one thing. If he's selling to 35 year old men, then you have to assume that there are other motives. That stuff all comes out in the investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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