Law and Order - What would you do?

[NorthSideSox72]

That's why I said earlier that you have to have faith in the powers that be to determine what is actually going on.  If the kid is selling to fellow students that are 19 and want to get into bars to get laid, that's one thing.  If he's selling to 35 year old men, then you have to assume that there are other motives.  That stuff all comes out in the investigation.

These were all 18 to 20 year old college students, as far as we could tell. But then again, I suppose there is the outside chance that he had made others, for other reasons, and successfully destroyed that evidence. Not likely, but possible.

[Balta1701]

Let me just say that in this situation, it couldn't matter less if the kid cooperated or not.  We had all the evidence we needed, because he saved the pictures and other info for each ID on his laptop, which we confiscated, analyzed, removed evidence from, and then destroyed.

If that's the case, then it's real easy to judge who he was selling to, and you can use a bit of prosecutorial and judicial judgement to determine what the kid's motives were. If they're a bunch of 18 year olds, you take 1 course of action, if they were placed in envelopes along with forged passports and sent to Afghanistan, you take another course of action.

[YASNY]

These were all 18 to 20 year old college students, as far as we could tell.  But then again, I suppose there is the outside chance that he had made others, for other reasons, and successfully destroyed that evidence.  Not likely, but possible.

 

Then I stand by my previous statement regarding 'a slap upside the head'.

[Mplssoxfan]

As a guy who has more than a little sympathy for kids can't legally drink until they're 21 (and more than a little disdain for the alliance of groups who got this country to this state of affairs), I am on the side of long probation, lots of community service, and, ideally, expungement from the record after probation is completed.

 

However, as a manager of a bar and restaurant licensed by the state, I would love to see this kid serve a little prison time (or county jail time) in addition to the punishment I stated above. Some idiot with a computer and illegally obtained templates has the ability to mess with my livelihood? Stow him away for a while; if he doesn't offend again, restore his civil rights and expunge his record.

 

The marijuana discussion is another thing entirely. At some point, this country should get realistic about pot and move to decriminalize it. Of course, Cubs fans should get realistic at some point, too.

[Balta1701]

However, as a manager of a bar and restaurant licensed by the state, I would love to see this kid serve a little prison time (or county jail time) in addition to the punishment I stated above.  Some idiot with a computer and illegally obtained templates has the ability to mess with my livelihood?  Stow him away for a while; if he doesn't offend again, restore his civil rights and expunge his record.

Can you give me some more details about how that would mess with your livelihood? If someone at your bar got through using a fake ID, do you face sanctions? Otherwise, wouldn't he just be helping you get extra customers?

[NorthSideSox72]

Can you give me some more details about how that would mess with your livelihood?  If someone at your bar got through using a fake ID, do you face sanctions?  Otherwise, wouldn't he just be helping you get extra customers?

Sorry to interrput, but I can tell you he could get in big trouble. Fines, suspended liquor license... even criminal charges for the bartender personally, if they thought he knew he was underage and let him drink anyway.

[Balta1701]

Sorry to interrput, but I can tell you he could get in big trouble. Fines, suspended liquor license... even criminal charges for the bartender personally, if they thought he knew he was underage and let him drink anyway.

But if the ID's were good and his business had no idea that the kid was underage...what then? I understand if the business lets him in deliberately, but can they seriously punish a business for someone using a well-made fake ID that looks real & passes all the usual checks?

[Flash Tizzle]

Can you give me some more details about how that would mess with your livelihood?  If someone at your bar got through using a fake ID, do you face sanctions?  Otherwise, wouldn't he just be helping you get extra customers?

Without a doubt his establishment would face sanctions, and possibly be shut down if there had been repeat offenses. However, as with all circumstances involving law, it's more complicated than this. If the bar is a vital revenue source for the community, only small sanctions or closing restrictions may be issued. Joe Daniels in Palos Heights nets our city more revenue than Dominicks and Jewel (practically combined). I know personally our policemen are tough on the establishment concerning underraged drinkers, but hardly--if ever--issue fines. It's more of threats. Cook County or other government officials may not be so lenient.

[NorthSideSox72]

But if the ID's were good and his business had no idea that the kid was underage...what then?  I understand if the business lets him in deliberately, but can they seriously punish a business for someone using a well-made fake ID that looks real & passes all the usual checks?

Yes the can be punished. To exactly what extent I do not know.

[Mplssoxfan]

Can you give me some more details about how that would mess with your livelihood?  If someone at your bar got through using a fake ID, do you face sanctions?  Otherwise, wouldn't he just be helping you get extra customers?

If the city or the state decided to get snotty and do a round-up of people in the establishment, they could certainly cite the establishment and any servers or bartenders who sold products to people with false ID. If you make a "good-faith" effort to determine if an ID is fake, you're in good shape. If they really wanted to come after you though, they could say that, since you've had instruction in recognizing fake ID, you should have known that these were fakes. Furthermore, IDs (in Minnesota, anyway) are scanable and unless these were extremely well done IDs, they won't scan. You're probably going to be asked why you don't have a scanner.

 

First offense in this case would net the establishment an administrative fine, and a misdemeanor charge for the server. It is also an alcohol-related offense, so if the server is on probation for any past alcohol related things, that could be trouble. By the third offense, though, it's suspension of the establishment's liquor license.

 

The place I work, this scenario probably wouldn't occur. Plus, in Minneapolis, I'd like to think that the authorities have better things to do. However, the MPD runs a series of ID stings each year, which is actually more of a ID checking compliance test, and there are certainly bars around colleges who target a younger demo. This is a big issue for them. At a college bar I worked at quite a few years ago, we supposedly served some kid with a fake ID. Her parents called the bar and threatened to sic the cops on us if we served their daughter again. We did the rational thing and asked for her actual name, the name on her fake and a good quality picture of her. The parents gave us the name on the fake, but nothing else.

 

Stuff like this is a good rationale for treating every cop you know like a king, if you're in the bar/restaurant biz. They won't cut you any breaks, per se, but they will try to see things your way.

[NorthSideSox72]

As promised, the rest of the story...

 

*insert People's Court entrance music*

 

The purchasers of the fake IDs were all asked for statements detailing their interactions with the ID-maker. In exchange, they were not charged criminally, but their statements were handed over to authorities on the University campus for internal discipline.

 

The main suspect settled before the case reached a court, on the initial offer. The 10 or so felony charges were reduced to 1 count serious misdemeanor of providing false identification for purpose of fraud (or whatever the exact statute states). No jail time. Sentence was for a few hundred hours of community service plus the time served in police custody. But the serious misdemeanor will remain on his record permanently (expungement of non-traffic charges is unusual for adults), and that is probably the biggest part of the punishment. Every time he fills out a job application now, he has one more "Yes" box to check.

 

In case you were curious, the handful of cops that discussed this case at the time were about evenly split between something like what he got, and running him up the flag pole on the felony. But the prosecutor, and the lead detective, both felt leniency was warranted.

 

*insert People's Court exit music*

 

Thanks for your opinions!

[Mplssoxfan]

As promised, the rest of the story...

 

*insert People's Court entrance music*

 

The purchasers of the fake IDs were all asked for statements detailing their interactions with the ID-maker.  In exchange, they were not charged criminally, but their statements were handed over to authorities on the University campus for internal discipline.

 

The main suspect settled before the case reached a court, on the initial offer.  The 10 or so felony charges were reduced to 1 count serious misdemeanor of providing false identification for purpose of fraud (or whatever the exact statute states).  No jail time.  Sentence was for a few hundred hours of community service plus the time served in police custody.  But the serious misdemeanor will remain on his record permanently (expungement of non-traffic charges is unusual for adults), and that is probably the biggest part of the punishment.  Every time he fills out a job application now, he has one more "Yes" box to check.

 

In case you were curious, the handful of cops that discussed this case at the time were about evenly split between something like what he got, and running him up the flag pole on the felony.  But the prosecutor, and the lead detective, both felt leniency was warranted.

 

*insert People's Court exit music*

 

Thanks for your opinions!

 

Question: Is this in Illinois? Beacuse it's fairly easy to get almost any first offense misdemeanor expunged in MN, I'm pretty sure.

[NorthSideSox72]

Question: Is this in Illinois?  Beacuse it's fairly easy to get almost any first offense misdemeanor expunged in MN, I'm pretty sure.

not IL, not MN.

[mmmmmbeeer]

Similar deal actually happened to my roomate while in the Air Force. Obviously laws differ between the military and the public, but I was still amazed at how everything went down.

 

My roomate was quite skillful at taking someone's military ID and simply changing the last digit of the birth date with a carefully cutout digit from a printed sheet of paper. He would remove the laminate, paste the digit, and relaminate the ID. The things were impeccably done. He wouldn't sell them, just do it as a favor to those who were under 21. I'd say he fixed a total of 7-10 IDs.

 

So one day I'm at work and my first sergeant comes and pulls me away and says we need to take a walk. As we're walking he tells me we're heading over to the OSI office (office of special investigations). I'm freaking out at this point because he tells me nothing about WHY I'm going and there were certainly some other indiscretions I had been involved in that could have warranted the attention of OSI. So I get there and I see a couple of our buddies there and then I'm really freaking out. I go into the office with 3 investigators and they immediately read me my rights. I'm then asked about my roomate, if he's been doing anything suspicious, etc. Finally, after about 5-10 mins of beating around the bush with me sitting there s***ting myself, they come clean on the ID "scandal". They're accusing my roomate of a widespread fake ID business and want to know what I know about it.

 

So I explain that there may have been a couple of date adjustments but certainly never any kind of business and certainly nothing widespread. They kept really pushing this "business side" of the IDs and, apparently understanding that I wasn't going to talk about a "business side", they let me go with my first sergeant.

 

So I head back to the dorm after work and, sure enough, my roomate and a couple of friends are standing outside of our room on the balcony while OSI is going through all of our s***. They found the laminate with cutouts the size of IDs, an xacto knife, a printout of various digits... Great stuff.

 

So it ends up that they gave him a letter of reprimand and about 2 months of community service (as in he doesn't go to work, he goes and works 12 hour days at the s*** plant). Ends up that the one who was running a true "business" had given them my roomates name. Apparently she was actually making pretty good loot selling IDs. She wasn't around much longer and I never did hear what happened to her. I can only assume that she was discharged and may have done some time before being dismissed.

 

Of course, none of this is really relevant to the public example you gave, but I thought I'd share anyway. They could have really jammed up my roomate for forging federal documents. Although his punishment was s***ty (no pun intended), he got off rather easy in my estimation. Seemed as if leniency was a driving force in his punishment.