downtown protest

[RockRaines]

There was no "badgering" involved.  It was simply an attempt to get an idea of one's situation, when said situation almost certainly influences that person's stance on a particular issue.

So maybe he should tell you to divorce your wife, sell your house, leave your children and go back to school so you can have the same view of the situation as he does? Your life is your life, implying that someone needs to be in the same situation as you to be able to see a rational side or an argument is ignorant, especially when you so blindly ignore the immigrant views of the issue.

[southsider2k5]

Funny, that same person implied that people who oppose illegal immigration do so out of racism.  Talk about a "negtative tone."  :rolly  I have a difficult time having a reasonable discussion when people do things like that.

 

And he got called on it, just like you did. You can put the rolly eyes away now...

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Funny, that same person implied that people who oppose illegal immigration do so out of racism. 

 

Nope, that was never the implication. That was the assumption when I brought up latent racism (Know what that is?). I think latent racism plays a role in people wanting to just kick out every single illegal immigrant as the answer. Then words were put in my mouth, as you continue to do, that I say everyone who opposes illegal immigration is racist. I never said that nor believe it, but I do think stereotyping and racism does play a role in the negative and demeaning way that illegal immigrants are portrayed. You'd be a fool to contend that racism doesn't exist. It is in no way the sole reason why their is opposition towards immigrants (financial and human rights reasons have been given in the thread, and I agree with those too), but it's there.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Can you give me an example of how someone here used this "racism and stereotyping" in a post that lead you to make this comment. I read through the whole thread and I can't find one besides your post that states it. Please show me an example of this and why you had to bring this into the argument at all. Thank you.

 

What part of "But I do think stereotyping and racism plays a part in their poor treatment" did you not understand?

 

No examples needed. I stated my opinion. I felt like bringing it up. Thanks.

[WCSox]

So maybe he should tell you to divorce your wife, sell your house, leave your children and go back to school so you can have the same view of the situation as he does? 

 

No need to. I've already experienced the young, single, just-out-of-college, few-responsibilities, living-for-only-myself lifestyle. And it's a hell of a lot different than having to provide for a family, particularly when it comes to money. A lot of younger people don't understand that (including myself back when I was Sleepy's age) because they haven't been through it yet. It's an issue of experience.

 

Nice to see you play the human rights card, later bulls***ting that your concerns are for workers' safety, when you clearly stated in your previous posts that your main concern was all of that precious money being "stolen" away from your taxes.    :rolly

 

Comments like this really piss me off. It's easy for somebody with fewer financial responsibilities to have a liberal attitude towards tax-dollar subsidization of illegals. But I'll be damned if I'm going to funnell away money that could go towards my family (or LEGAL American citizens via taxes) so that it can support illegal immigrants.

 

Nope, that was never the implication.  That was the assumption when I brought up latent racism (Know what that is?).  I think latent racism plays a role in people wanting to just kick out every single illegal immigrant as the answer.

 

Yes, I know what "latent" means. You're not the only one who's been to college.

 

So, what, we're all being subconsciously racist when we want people who are here illegally deported? I don't care what race or religion they are; breaking the law is breaking the law.

 

Then words were put in my mouth, as you continue to do, that I say everyone who opposes illegal immigration is racist.  I never said that nor believe it, but I do think stereotyping and racism does play a role in the negative and demeaning way that illegal immigrants are portrayed.

 

Then why do you keep bringing up this point? You seem to be implying that a hell of a lot of people are racist... although they just might not be aware of it.

 

You'd be a fool to contend that racism doesn't exist.  It is in no way the sole reason why their is opposition towards immigrants (financial and human rights reasons have been given in the thread, and I agree with those too), but it's there

 

Really? I thought that racism died during the Johnson administration?

 

Yes, of course racism is alive and well in America. But listing that as a major factor for people being opposed to illegal immigration is nothing short of ignoring the REAL reasons that people oppose undocumented workers (security, financial) is nothing short of playing the race card. And playing the race card takes credibility away from your argument.

 

Keep in mind as well that not all of the illegals entering the Southwest are coming here to pick tomatoes and clean swimming pools. A lot of those people are involved in the Mexican drug cartels. And, in many cases, the corrupt Mexican government is aiding them. Therefore, it's important that we approach this as a homeland security issue as well.

 

I fully understand that undocumented workers are keeping the prices of many goods (particularly food) down substantially. That's obviously a good thing for our economy and, despite the fact that these people are living in sub-standard conditions when comared with other Americans, their pay and standard of living are higher than they would be in Mexico. I do not condone the American business-owners who exploit these people, but they have it better here than they would in their own country. Therefore, I would support a guest worker program, rather than just kicking them all out. The most important thing is that we have control over who comes across our borders.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Comments like this really piss me off.  It's easy for somebody with fewer financial responsibilities to have a liberal attitude towards tax-dollar subsidization of illegals.  But I'll be damned if I'm going to funnell away money that could go towards my family (or LEGAL American citizens via taxes) so that it can support illegal immigrants.

 

Then I hope you feel the same way about all situations in which the government needlessly spends tax dollars with the same fervor.

[mr_genius]

It's an issue of experience.

Comments like this really piss me off.  It's easy for somebody with fewer financial responsibilities to have a liberal attitude towards tax-dollar subsidization of illegals. 

 

maybe, maybe not.

 

i was a lot more "right-wing" when i was younger. i have changed my opinions on certain social programs since them.

[WCSox]

Then I hope you feel the same way about all situations in which the government needlessly spends tax dollars with the same fervor.

 

Damn straight I do. I'm from the Reagan school of government spending.

[Rex Kickass]

The Reagan school of government spending? Reagan increased the size of Federal government by leaps and bounds.

 

He also supported tax increases in his second term.

[RockRaines]

No need to. I've already experienced the young, single, just-out-of-college, few-responsibilities, living-for-only-myself lifestyle. And it's a hell of a lot different than having to provide for a family, particularly when it comes to money. A lot of younger people don't understand that (including myself back when I was Sleepy's age) because they haven't been through it yet. It's an issue of experience.

 

 

Overgeneralization on your part once again. Every recent college graduate goes through the same thing huh? All have the same life? Just like your family life must be boring as you drive your little mini van around town wanting more out of life like most older married men. But of course, thats not stereotyping you is it?

[WCSox]

Overgeneralization on your part once again.  Every recent college graduate goes through the same thing huh?  All have the same life?  Just like your family life must be boring as you drive your little mini van around town wanting more out of life like most older married men.  But of course, thats not stereotyping you is it?

 

People who haven't gone through certain things in life tend not to understand the complexities of what it's like to be in said situation. For example, I don't really know what it's like to be an elderly man with dementia living in a nursing home. I have a few ideas of what it might be like, but I don't have a full appreciation of what such a person goes through on a daily basis. Nor do I really understand what it's like to be a rape or sexual-abuse victim.

 

Similarly, I don't think that the average newly-minted college graduate understands the complexities of supporting a family. Some of them may already be in that situation, but the person in question isn't.

 

And for the record, I don't drive a minivan. But feel free to keep taking shots at me.

Edited March 13, 2006 by WCSox

[RockRaines]

And for the record, I don't drive a minivan.  But feel free to keep taking shots at me.

It was a generalization, part of proving a point. If that is a shot at you, what was your general comments about the simplicity of every new college graduate's life and responsibilities?

[WCSox]

It was a generalization, part of proving a point.  If that is a shot at you, what was your general comments about the simplicity of every new college graduate's life and responsibilities?

 

The fatal flaw in your argument was that I was addressing A PARTICULAR person's life. I'm well-aware that there are college graduates out there who have a wife and three children to support.

[Rex Kickass]

OK, we're done arguing about hypothetical people's hypothetical lives. If you have an issue with someone in particular, thats what PMs are for.

 

Thanks.

[mr_genius]

hypothetical people's hypothetical lives.

 

 

just in from the department of redundancy department

 

[Soxpranos]

So maybe he should tell you to divorce your wife, sell your house, leave your children and go back to school so you can have the same view of the situation as he does?  Your life is your life, implying that someone needs to be in the same situation as you to be able to see a rational side or an argument is ignorant, especially when you so blindly ignore the immigrant views of the issue.

 

 

Great advise.. take it... no one told you to get married or have children. If you are not financially stable to support a family, why have one? Those are some reason why people from all over the world come here to find a job and support there family. Chicago has just as many people from Poland than Poland itself... and most are illegal. They are just here to work... just a example.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Soxpranos

[EvilMonkey]

Chicago has just as many people from Poland than Poland itself... and most are illegal. They are just here to work... just a example.

Do you have ANYTHING to actually back that up? I don't see Poles running across the border, and even with the crappy airport security, I don't see them sneaking by the security checkpoints.

[WCSox]

Great advise.. take it... no one told you to get married or have children. If you are not financially  stable to support a family, why have one?

 

I do a fine job of providing for my family, thank you. I simply stated that it costs a lot of money to do.

 

BTW, nice spelling/grammar. I'm sure that your English teacher would be proud.

 

Do you have ANYTHING to actually back that up?  I don't see Poles running across the border, and even with the crappy airport security, I don't see them sneaking by the security checkpoints.

 

Yep, the vast majority of them are here legally. There aren't very many drug cartels trafficking in coke, heroin, and meth from Poland, either.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 09:10 PM)

What part of "But I do think stereotyping and racism plays a part in their poor treatment" did you not understand?   

 

No examples needed.  I stated my opinion.  I felt like bringing it up.  Thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It just seems kind of odd to me to bring that up in this discussion when nothing we being made of it. Unless you were having trouble refuting a point, which seemed like the case.

[Flash Tizzle]

Yep, the vast majority of them are here legally.  There aren't very many drug cartels trafficking in coke, heroin, and meth from Poland, either.

It's obvious the influx of illegal immigrants from Poland doesn't nearly match the problem displayed on our southern borders. There are, however, an abundance of Polish women (among others from Eastern Europe, Russia) illlegally shipped. Who knows the exact count, since their forged documentation is typically provided by individuals transporting the women. Whether their jobs are prostitution/exotic dancing (one in the same, most likely) or assistance for cleaning services, I believe it's an overlooked immigration issue.

[bmags]

do people realize how much this cheap labor helps the economy?

[SleepyWhiteSox]

The fatal flaw in your argument was that I was addressing A PARTICULAR person's life.  I'm well-aware that there are college graduates out there who have a wife and three children to support.

 

The fatal flaw in your argument is that you assume that every husband with a house and kids shares yours views. That's not the case.

 

Let's just judge the opinions being posted and not the posters who are posting them.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

It just seems kind of odd to me to bring that up in this discussion when nothing we being made of it. Unless you were having trouble refuting a point, which seemed like the case.

 

What point did I not refute?

 

You're the one still hung up on a simple point that I made that is, in fact, relevant. I've explained time and time again that I do not believe racism is a main cause of those who are against illegal immigration, but I do believe that it does play a role in the poor treatment and degradation of immigrants. The idea that because racism is brought up it completely nullifies a point of view is narrow-minded and ridiculous. There are going to be racial undertones when dealing with this particular subject whether you feel you're above admitting it or not...

 

Maybe you keep bringing that up because you have trouble refuting my points...

[NorthSideSox72]

Chicago has just as many people from Poland than Poland itself... and most are illegal. They are just here to work... just a example.

Huh? Poland has tens of millions of people. The Chicago metro area has 8 million. Your hyperbole is laughable. And to say they are mostly here illegally is pretty unbelievable. They have to fly here or come in ships, and that is a lot harder than walking across a border.

 

I think perhaps you were driving at the famous Chicago Polish stat - Chicago is the second largest Polish city on earth. That one is actually true.

[WCSox]

The fatal flaw in your argument is that you assume that every husband with a house and kids shares yours views.  That's not the case. 

 

Whiff! You miss my point again.

 

If you want extra money taken out of YOUR paycheck to support people who are committing a crime simply by being on American soil, that's your business. But I'll be damned if I'm going to let people like you take extra money out of MY paycheck to support your liberal agenda. And if that makes me a "latent racist" in the eyes of you and your leftist cohorts, then so be it.

 

Let's just judge the opinions being posted and not the posters who are posting them.

 

If you'll stop using the race card to defend your argument, I'll agree to that.

Edited March 14, 2006 by WCSox