downtown protest

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 08:04 AM)

What point did I not refute? 

 

You're the one still hung up on a simple point that I made that is, in fact, relevant.  I've explained time and time again that I do not believe racism is a main cause of those who are against illegal immigration, but I do believe that it does play a role in the poor treatment and degradation of immigrants.  The idea that because racism is brought up it completely nullifies a point of view is narrow-minded and ridiculous.  There are going to be racial undertones when dealing with this particular subject whether you feel you're above admitting it or not...

 

Maybe you keep bringing that up because you have trouble refuting my points...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But then why bring it up? How does it help your argument at all?

 

Your main points are that this is not a good bill and that we need a better solution to the problem. I would agree with those points. The bill is not perfect and we do need a better solution. I just don't agree with everything else that you add to the argument.

 

And just to make a point here, all immigrants had to deal with this problem when they first came to this country. No one would hire the Irish when they first got here. You know the Irish had to take the most dangerous jobs (Police and Fire Fighters) that no one else wanted for very little pay. Then the Germans. Then the Polish........ Each nationality had to deal with that. Each nationality also had to live in filth and the slums. Each nationality was very poor. Each nationality was treated very poorly. Each nationality had to learn an entirely different language. That is something that Mexicans can get by on right now. They don't have to learn the language. As soon as the Irish men got off the boat they had to sign a paper to join the army and were then shipped off to fight in a war they knew nothing about. There seems to be a price you pay when you come over here with nothing. Is this the racism you are talking about? Because I am not sure I would call it racism.

 

I would also think they are being treated badly because they are taking jobs away from others (United States tax paying citizens). Not necessarily in the fruit picking and gardening, but in construction and drywall work yes.

 

Someone also brought up the argument to WCSox that if he couldn't afford kids and a family or it was difficult for him to then he shouldn't have them. It is my understanding that most Mexican's come across the border to provide for their family in Mexico. Because they can't provide for them over there. Many Mexican's have large families in Mexico. They have 5 - 10 kids that they can not support so they risk their life to come over here to get paid less than minimum wage so they can feed/provide for their 5 - 10 kids across the border. Why don't we tell them to stop having kids if they can't afford it instead of telling our own tax paying citizens to stop having kids or not to have kids. Obviously WCSox can support his and has no trouble doing so, he just doesn't feel like supporting other peoples families from other countries. That is the point he was tring to make and it was twisted around on him. By the way I DIDN'T SAY ALL MEXICANS. I DID NOT MAKE A BROAD JUDGEMENT OR RACIST REMARK. Just as all do not partake in the drug cartell or other criminal gang like activities, but some do.

Edited March 14, 2006 by southsideirish

[SleepyWhiteSox]

If you'll stop using the race card to defend your argument, I'll agree to that.

 

Yep, I'm "screaming racism." :rolly

 

If you're gonna twist my words that poorly, might as well admit you've run out of things to say and are just talking out of your ass...

[WCSox]

But then why bring it up? How does it help your argument at all?

Someone also brought up the argument to WCSox that if he couldn't afford kids and a family or it was difficult for him to then he shouldn't have them. It is my understanding that most Mexican's come across the border to provide for their family in Mexico. Because they can't provide for them over there. Many Mexican's have large families in Mexico. They have 5 - 10 kids that they can not support so they risk their life to come over here to get paid less than minimum wage so they can feed/provide for their 5 - 10 kids across the border.  Why don't we tell them to stop having kids if they can't afford it instead of telling our own tax paying citizens to stop having kids or not to have kids. Obviously WCSox can support his and has no trouble doing so, he just doesn't feel like supporting other peoples families from other countries. That is the point he was tring to make and it was twisted around on him.

 

Thank you.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 05:15 PM)

Yep, I'm "screaming racism."    :rolly

 

If you're gonna twist my words that poorly, might as well admit you've run out of things to say and are just talking out of your ass...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You brought it up twice when no one had nothing to say about a particular race and no one was making a racial stereotype or comment. You brought it into this conversation. Why? No one can figure that out.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

And just to make a point here, all immigrants had to deal with this problem when they first came to this country. No one would hire the Irish when they first got here. You know the Irish had to take the most dangerous jobs (Police and Fire Fighters) that no one else wanted for very little pay. Then the Germans. Then the Polish........ Each nationality had to deal with that. Each nationality also had to live in filth and the slums. Each nationality was very poor. Each nationality was treated very poorly. Each nationality had to learn an entirely different language. That is something that Mexicans can get by on right now. They don't have to learn the language. As soon as the Irish men got off the boat they had to sign a paper to join the army and were then shipped off to fight in a war they knew nothing about. There seems to be a price you pay when you come over here with nothing. Is this the racism you are talking about? Because I am not sure I would call it racism.

 

 

And did they all get kicked out of the country as many are calling for?

[WCSox]

Yep, I'm "screaming racism."    :rolly

 

If you're gonna twist my words that poorly, might as well admit you've run out of things to say and are just talking out of your ass...

 

No, you're screaming "latent racism"!

 

If you don't want to be labeled a race-baiter, stop using the race card to defend your arguments. It's nothing short of a veiled condemnation of the others involved in the discussion.

[LosMediasBlancas]

"Each nationality had to learn an entirely different language".

 

When did the Irish need to learn English?

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 05:18 PM)

And did they all get kicked out of the country as many are calling for?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Did many want them out and call for it? YES!! There were people waiting for them to come off the boats to tell them to go back and that they weren't wanted. They considered the Irish a dirty people. A lot also became slaves and indentured servants. A lot of them didn't even get a chance to live here anyway because they were shipped off to fight some war they knew nothing about. However, there also wasn't an overcrowding problem in the United States back then. Is there now? This is not a problem that one race or nationality had to deal with. This has always happened.

 

Either way, I think that is a ridiculous argument for you to make since that had nothing to do with my argument. You are arguing two different things. I was arguing your stance on poor treatment by others in this country. Your call for racism.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Thank you. 

 

5-10 kids was the norm 20 years ago...

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Did many want them out and call for it? YES!! There were people waiting for them to come off the boats to tell them to go back and that they weren't wanted. They considered the Irish a dirty people. A lot also became slaves and indentured servants. A lot of them didn't even get a chance to live here anyway because they were shipped off to fight some war they knew nothing about. However, there also wasn't an overcrowding problem in the United States back then. Is there now? This is not a problem that one race or nationality had to deal with. This has always happened.

 

Either way, I think that is a ridiculous argument for you to make since that had nothing to do with my argument. You are arguing two different things. I was arguing your stance on poor treatment by others in this country. Your call for racism.

 

Ok, I get your argument. It happened in the past, so that makes it perfectly acceptable now. Fair enough.

[southsideirish71]

"Each nationality had to learn an entirely different language".

 

When did the Irish need to learn English?

 

 

You obviously havent met my relatives

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(LosMediasBlancas @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 05:20 PM)

"Each nationality had to learn an entirely different language".

 

When did the Irish need to learn English?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not all Irish spoke English. Many only spoke Gaelic, which is nothing like English.

[WCSox]

Ok, I get your argument.  It happened in the past, so that makes it perfectly acceptable now.  Fair enough.

 

Of course the big difference, which you conveniently omit, is that the vast majority of European immigrants who came to America in the late 1800s and early 1900s did it LEGALLY.

 

I do not condone the prejudice that they endured, but this was during an age when African-Americans drank out of "colored" water fountains. Racism was obviously (and sadly) more widely-accepted in this country back then.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 05:28 PM)

Ok, I get your argument.  It happened in the past, so that makes it perfectly acceptable now.  Fair enough.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Acceptable? I am telling you that they don't have it as bad as these people that came here as immigrants way back then. They did not come here on ships called coffin ships. They can't be told that they can't get hired because they are a certain race. They are not being shipped off to war as soon as they touch our land. The little money that they do come here with is not being taken from them for a "welcoming fee". Do they have it bad? Yes, but compared to the past, not half as bad. I don't see how they are treated half as poorly as other immigrant groups were that came here on awful ships and became slaves or indentured servants or not able to get a job at all. And these were people that came here to actaully stay here and start a new life. These are not people that just wanted to send money back to another country and go back there some day.

[southsideirish71]

I am just going to throw my opinion into the frey on this, however I am a person who is a immigrant and a person who had to go through the naturalization process. Thank God I was able to overcome the families use of Gaelic and learn english I am a unique immigrant as I was born in Ireland and came over here when I was a baby. I dont have the typical Irish accent so no one knows that I am an immigrant unless I tell them.

 

I am for a guest worker program. I believe in giving people options to become an american citizen. I think its a great option and will help curb some of the illegal activity. However the people who will be against this are the companies that utlize the lower pay of the illegal immigrant. This is who will fight this, not the immigrant and not the average american citizen. The immigrant wants a better life. Ireland up until they joined the EU had a piss poor economy. Many of my relatives have left and have sought out better opportunities all over the globe.

 

I am however in favor of legal immigration only. Bottom line, if you cant come to a country legally, you must abide by the Sovereignty of the Countries Borders. For every person that comes here illegally with the proper dream, there are others who are using this as a way to bring drugs, gangs, and illicit goods into/out of this country. I see international gangs like MS-13 who jump back and forth across the border who have figured out how to utilize illegal immigration to further their gang activies. And as hard as it is for people to believe, there are irish and polish and others who come over here illegally. If you earn money in the US you should abide by the laws of the US and pay taxes. Rewarding people for breaking into the country is setting a bad example. So no drivers licenses, etc. If the government knows you are illegal you should be sent back. I dont care if you are Irish, Polish, Meixcan, Peruvian, or whatever. Our borders need to be secure. I do find it funny that the government of Mexico is openly handing out pamphlets on how to cross the border safely. The Irish are working on a similiar thing, it involves a tunnel that connects all the Irish pubs. It was scrapped due to too many irish not wanting to leave the first bar they hit. My only fear is that if some terrorist group uses the mexican border to get in and perform acts of terror, the repercussions to the Mexican-American relations will be grave and dramatic.

[southsideirish71]

Not all Irish spoke English. Many only spoke Gaelic, which is nothing like English.

 

When was this. My grandparents spoke perfect english. My great grandfather spoke english. We lived in a town in Kerry in the South were Gaelic is still spoken today. I learned gaelic growing up, however we learned english first.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I am just going to throw my opinion into the frey on this, however I am a person who is a immigrant and a person who had to go through the naturalization process.  Thank God I was able to overcome the families use of Gaelic and learn english  I am a unique immigrant as I was born in Ireland and came over here when I was a baby.  I dont have the typical Irish accent so no one knows that I am an immigrant unless I tell them.

 

I am for a guest worker program.  I believe in giving people options to become an american citizen.  I think its a great option and will help curb some of the illegal activity.  However the people who will be against this are the companies that utlize the lower pay of the illegal immigrant.  This is who will fight this, not the immigrant and not the average american citizen.  The immigrant wants a better life.  Ireland up until they joined the EU had a piss poor economy.  Many of my relatives have left and have sought out better opportunities all over the globe.

 

I am however in favor of legal immigration only.  Bottom line, if you cant come to a country legally, you must abide by the Sovereignty of the Countries Borders.  For every person that comes here illegally with the proper dream, there are others who are using this as a way to bring drugs, gangs, and illicit goods into/out of this country.  I see international gangs like MS-13 who jump back and forth across the border who have figured out how to utilize illegal immigration to further their gang activies.  And as hard as it is for people to believe, there are irish and polish and others who come over here illegally.  If you earn money in the US you should abide by the laws of the US and pay taxes.  Rewarding people for breaking into the country is setting a bad example.  So no drivers licenses, etc.  If the government knows you are illegal you should be sent back.  I dont care if you are Irish, Polish, Meixcan, Peruvian, or whatever.  Our borders need to be secure.  I do find it funny that the government of Mexico is openly handing out pamphlets on how to cross the border safely. The Irish are working on a similiar thing, it involves a tunnel that connects all the Irish pubs.  It was scrapped due to too many irish not wanting to leave the first bar they hit. My only fear is that if some terrorist group uses the mexican border to get in and perform acts of terror, the repercussions to the Mexican-American relations will be grave and dramatic.

 

Great post. I basically agree, especially in your belief of giving deserving immigrants the proper chance to be citizens.

 

By the way, can I ask how you got here as a baby?

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 06:02 PM)

When was this.  My grandparents spoke perfect english.  My great grandfather spoke english.  We lived in a town in Kerry in the South were Gaelic is still spoken today.  I learned gaelic growing up, however we learned english first.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It has been a long time. I am not saying that it was common or that most did. But many did. I think it changed a great deal during the 18th century if I am not mistaken and even more drastically around the time of the potato famine. I could be wrong about the time frame.

[southsideirish71]

Great post.  I basically agree, especially in your belief of giving deserving immigrants the proper chance to be citizens.

 

By the way, can I ask how you got here as a baby?

 

 

My father came over here on a work visa in the early 60s. He then joined the army to fast track his immigration. He went back and forth in the 60s between Ireland and the US and then brought my mother and I over in 1973. I was 1 1 1/2. He worked multiple jobs growing up. It took a while but we got our citizenship. I still remember it even though I was a child. It was one of the best days of my life. The american flag never was so beautiful to me on that day.

[RockRaines]

I love the "rite of passage" that is being brought up in argument. "Well back in the civil war days..." Who gives a rats ass. If we were follow those lines of logic, then we should meet up in the street and beat this argument out with clubs and knives, any takers????

 

The fact is, regardless of why immigrants come here, or what they are doing here, the bill in question refuses any medical treatment to illegals and will prosecute any doctors following their hippocratic oath. That is a fundamentally flawed idea, and in the support of basic human rights, I am against it.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

My father came over here on a work visa in the early 60s.  He then joined the army to fast track his immigration.  He went back and forth in the 60s between Ireland and the US and then brought my mother and I over in 1973.  I was 1 1 1/2.  He worked multiple jobs growing up.  It took a while but we got our citizenship.  I still remember it even though I was a child.  It was one of the best days of my life.  The american flag never was so beautiful to me on that day.

 

So you were brought over illegally? There's a few people on here that don't want you here.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I love the "rite of passage" that is being brought up in argument.  "Well back in the civil war days..."  Who gives a rats ass.  If we were follow those lines of logic, then we should meet up in the street and beat this argument out with clubs and knives, any takers????

 

The fact is, regardless of why immigrants come here, or what they are doing here, the bill in question refuses any medical treatment to illegals and will prosecute any doctors following their hippocratic oath. That is a fundamentally flawed idea, and in the support of basic human rights, I am against it.

 

Exactly, which has been my point from the beginning, even though it's gotten lost in all of the bulls***...

[RockRaines]

So you were brought over illegally?  There's a few people on here that don't want you here.   

[southsideirish71]

So you were brought over illegally?  There's a few people on here that don't want you here.   

 

LOL, My mother was granted permission to gain a work visa also. I couldnt work at 1 1/2 so I was allowed to tag along, LOL.

[SleepyWhiteSox]