Allegations of Government Misconduct in Moussaoui

[KipWellsFan]

Judge recesses trial of Zacarias Moussaoui to consider allegations of government misconduct in briefing witnesses.

cnn.com

[KipWellsFan]

"In all the years I've been on the bench, I have never seen such an egregious violation of a rule on witnesses," she said.

full story

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/13/moussaou...l.ap/index.html

 

must be one of those liberal judges

[NorthSideSox72]

full story

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/13/moussaou...l.ap/index.html

 

must be one of those liberal judges

I'm glad I'm not that judge. Tough call to make.

 

I generally tend to agree with judges that keep their courts in order, instead of allowing attornies to run rough-shod over legal protections for their convenience. So I can't blame her for being stern. I'll be curious to see how this turns out.

[kapkomet]

I'm glad I'm not that judge.  Tough call to make.

 

I generally tend to agree with judges that keep their courts in order, instead of allowing attornies to run rough-shod over legal protections for their convenience.  So I can't blame her for being stern.  I'll be curious to see how this turns out.

This is a perfect example of why these people should be tried by military tribunals. Before I go on, refresh my memory - is Moose an American Citizen?

[Balta1701]

This is a perfect example of why these people should be tried by military tribunals.  Before I go on, refresh my memory - is Moose an American Citizen?

Why, so that the government can do whatever it needs to do to convict because we already know that they're guilty and should die?

 

And he's a french citizen of Moroccan descent. He would be the first French citizen ever to face the death penalty in the U.S. if it goes that far.

Edited March 13, 2006 by Balta1701

[Rex Kickass]

This is a sentencing trial, if I'm not mistaken. He won't be set free. It's about whether or not he'll spend the rest of his life in jail or be executed.

[kapkomet]

In that case, then, life imprisonment with no parole is just fine for me.

 

But, if this were a guilt vs. innocence phase, you're damn right I'd be pissed off if this slime ass got off because lawyers screwed it up.

[Rex Kickass]

Hard to make that happen. He pleaded guilty against his lawyers' advice.

[WCSox]

It just figures that when the Feds have a slam-dunk case, their idiot lawyer screws it up. :rolly

 

Since I'm not a death-penalty supporter, life without parole sounds fine to me.

[YASNY]

It just figures that when the Feds have a slam-dunk case, their idiot lawyer screws it up.  :rolly

 

Since I'm not a death-penalty supporter, life without parole sounds fine to me.

 

Screw that. This guy has nearly 3000 American deaths on his hands. he should be hung at ground zero.

[Rex Kickass]

The evidence connecting him to the actual 9/11 plot/actions are actually rather tenuous, IIRC. However, he is an avowed member of Al-Qaeda and has been involved with other plots that have been foiled.

[YASNY]

The evidence connecting him to the actual 9/11 plot/actions are actually rather tenuous, IIRC. However, he is an avowed member of Al-Qaeda and has been involved with other plots that have been foiled.

 

Read your own post ... number 8 in this thread. Is that tenuous?

[AbeFroman]

In my experience, U.S. attorneys almost never make mistakes. I'm a bit shocked that someone working for the Feds would do this.

 

If it were some state's attorney, i'd almost expect it... but the feds are more savvy than this.

 

I think the judge's hands are tied. If she grants the death penalty, it should get overturned on appeal

[Rex Kickass]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2005Apr22.html

 

The statement also echoed many of the findings of the Sept. 11 commission, which provided a vivid account of Moussaoui's activities and how they mirrored the preparations of Mohamed Atta and the 18 other hijackers.

 

The commission reported that Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed said Moussaoui was tapped for a second wave of attacks, but the panel went on to cast doubt on the veracity of that claim. Another Sept. 11 conspirator, Ramzi Binalshibh, told interrogators that he believed Moussaoui was being groomed to join the hijacking teams, the commission said.

 

The commission concluded that any second wave plans were ill-formed and that, instead, Moussaoui was probably being prepared as a replacement for pilot Ziad Samir Jarrah, whose loyalty to the cause was in question for a time.

[WCSox]

Screw that.  This guy has nearly 3000 American deaths on his hands.  he should be hung at ground zero.

 

Despite not being a huge supporter of the death penalty, I'm not going to shed any tears if he gets the chair. Even if he does get life without parole, there's a good chance that he'd be murdered in prison anyway.

[NorthSideSox72]

In my experience, U.S. attorneys almost never make mistakes.  I'm a bit shocked that someone working for the Feds would do this.

 

If it were some state's attorney, i'd almost expect it... but the feds are more savvy than this.

 

I think the judge's hands are tied.  If she grants the death penalty, it should get overturned on appeal

I suspect you haven't known enough US attorneys

 

Seriously, attorneys at all levels try to push the boundaries of conduct all the time. These prosecutors are meant to be bulldogs, and they are, but sometimes they cross the line. I have seen it happen before.

[Balta1701]

I suspect you haven't known enough US attorneys 

 

Seriously, attorneys at all levels try to push the boundaries of conduct all the time.  These prosecutors are meant to be bulldogs, and they are, but sometimes they cross the line.  I have seen it happen before.

It's happened in literally a majority of the terrorism prosecutions the government has attempted since 9/11. This case, The Lackawanna case...even the Brooklyn Bridge blowtorch guy is challenging his conviction based on the statements that the Bush administration didn't obtain a FISA warrant in his case.

[Balta1701]

In that case, then, life imprisonment with no parole is just fine for me.

 

But, if this were a guilt vs. innocence phase, you're damn right I'd be pissed off if this slime ass got off because lawyers screwed it up.

Usually, if a lawyer screws up in this manner in the guilt vs. innocence phase, it winds up in a second trial, not necessarily in a release...at least based on the cases I've seen.

[AbeFroman]

I suspect you haven't known enough US attorneys  

 

Seriously, attorneys at all levels try to push the boundaries of conduct all the time.  These prosecutors are meant to be bulldogs, and they are, but sometimes they cross the line.  I have seen it happen before.

 

A number of lawyers in my firm practice criminal law at the federal level (though admittedly, that it is not my speciality). The impression I've always been given is that its much much much tougher to beat the feds that the state prosecuters, particularly at trial.

 

I know the guys in my firm have a couple of jury wins against the federal government. But by and large, they'd much rather plead than take their chances against the feds.

 

I've heard other attorneys (not from my firm) say that going against the state is like shooting fish in a barrell. While that is probably an exageration, beating some A.S.A. six months out of law school probably isn't much of a challenge for the seasoned pros.

Edited March 14, 2006 by AbeFroman

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Screw that.  This guy has nearly 3000 American deaths on his hands.  he should be hung at ground zero.

 

 

^^^^

 

Hell yeah he should. Either that or we should let the victims families stone him to death if they choose. No amount of pain is too great for this cockbag.

[mr_genius]

NuuuuUUUUUUUuuuuuuke!

 

cleveland

Edited March 14, 2006 by mr_genius

[Mplssoxfan]

A number of lawyers in my firm practice criminal law at the federal level (though admittedly, that it is not my speciality).  The impression I've always been given is that its much much much tougher to beat the feds that the state prosecuters, particularly at trial. 

 

I know the guys in my firm have a couple of jury wins against the federal government.  But by and large, they'd much rather plead than take their chances against the feds.

 

I've heard other attorneys (not from my firm) say that going against the state is like shooting fish in a barrell.  While that is probably an exageration, beating some A.S.A. six months out of law school probably isn't much of a challenge for the seasoned pros.

 

About seven and a half years ago, I was on a jury for a Federal bankruptcy fraud trial. Very interesting stuff. We acquitted the defendant, mainly because the state had a weak case, but also because a number of jurors had sympathy for the defendant and antipathy for the bankruptcy trustee, who was the state's main witness. One thing I learned was that I never want to be put in a position where my future is decided by a "jury of my peers".

 

Anyway, to finally get to the point, after the trial, almost every lawyer I spoke with was astounded that we acquitted a Federal defendant. One even said that was the first time he'd ever heard of an acquittal -- he has since argued in front of SCOTUS, so he's not exactly a hack. About four years later, I found out that that was the first loss that the Prosecutor ever endured (and she wasn't happy about it, apparently).

[FlaSoxxJim]

It really seems like nothing Maussaoui could have said would have got the FBI off their asses to actually investigate him.

 

[FBI Agent] Samit testified that he worked obsessively after Moussaoui's Aug. 16, 2001, arrest to convince FBI headquarters that Moussaoui warranted a full-scale investigation and that a search warrant should be obtained for his belongings.

 

The agent obtained a search warrant only after the Sept. 11 attacks, and attributed the FBI's failure to launch a timely investigation to "criminal negligence" and careerism by certain agents in FBI headquarters. The bureau's failures thwarted an opportunity to prevent the attacks, he said.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060321/ap_on_re_us/moussaoui

 

I heard a radio news report today that Samit made at least 70(!!) requests to his superiors in the 4 weeks between Maussaoui's arrest and 9/11 to search his place and investigate concerns of Maussaoui's roommate that he was radical Islamic extremist bent on terrorism. That's more than 3 requests a day during 4 work weeks. All requests to conduct an investigation were denied. Untill after 9/11, that is.

[NorthSideSox72]

It really seems like nothing Maussaoui could have said would have got the FBI off their asses to actually investigate him.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060321/ap_on_re_us/moussaoui

 

I heard a radio news report today that Samit made at least 70(!!) requests to his superiors in the 4 weeks between Maussaoui's arrest and 9/11 to search his place and investigate concerns of Maussaoui's roommate that he was radical Islamic extremist bent on terrorism.  That's more than 3 requests a day during 4 work weeks.  All requests to conduct an investigation were denied.  Untill after 9/11, that is.

Not surprising. There was that female agent in Minneapolis as well, who banged on a few too many doors about Moussaoui, and they tried to fire her for it.

 

The FBI is one messed up department.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Not surprising.  There was that female agent in Minneapolis as well, who banged on a few too many doors about Moussaoui, and they tried to fire her for it.

 

The FBI is one messed up department.

Yeah, I'm blanking on the female agent's name, but I remember her saying her requests to search his laptop were repeatedly denied. Interestingly, given our renewed FISA discussion one thread over, I recall that agent laying a some of the blame on being hamstrunng by FISA.