quickman Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 11:03 PM) No, I mean neither will match the 3.78 Vizcaino put up last year. He didn't pay as much attention to the bullpen as he did last offseason when in reality it was his #1 priority. Coming in he had Shingo who was coming off a year just as good or better than Jenks had. Hermanson, Politte, Cotts all who will be hard-pressed to match or even come close to what they did last year. Marte who was not good, but is a hall of famer compared to some of the guys they signed. And Vizcaino, who wasn't great, but was a guy with a rubber arm who could eat innings. BMac is probably better than any of them, but I can't see the Sox throwing him in 65 games. The other thing he had was back-up plans if guys faltered. Shingo faltered in comes Hermanson. Hermanson goes down, there's Jenks. Pitchers are going to go down, that's just part of the game. The Sox only used 6 starters last year. Its been a long time since a team was able to say that, and that scenerio probably won't repeat itself. That would mean BMac will most likely be in the rotation at some point, making the bullpen worse. It is a huge problem for a team trying to win another championship. A thin bullpen has been the achilles heel of many otherwise great teams. I totally agree again. Injuries will happen. We have very little for backup. that is why I responded to Jim saying we need to sign three guys if they come available and hide one in AAA if possible. I thougth tracey would be a guy we could count on for 15 days, hell he still might be, but right now he does not have alot of command. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 (edited) Um, just because you have it in your head that Politte and Cotts will suck doesn't mean Kenny does. If Hermanson was healthy, there wouldn't even be anything to really talk about. Kenny gambled that he would be. He was wrong. Now lets exhibit some patience and give the man a chance to do what he does best. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, there would be -- the crappy second lefties. With Hermanson looking to be injured, we now we have two potential bullpen holes. Edited March 14, 2006 by SSH2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 10:05 PM) Um, just because you have it in your head that Politte and Cotts will suck doesn't mean Kenny does. If Hermanson was healthy, there wouldn't even be anything to really talk about. Kenny gambled that he would be. He was wrong. Now lets exhibit some patience and give the man a chance to do what he does best. I don't think Cotts will suck. I don't think he'll be able to match last year's numbers, I don't see how any could expect that. They really were incredible and he is going to be in some hairier situations this year. I think Politte is going to be a dissapointment. Hermanson was talking retirement. Vizcaino was traded away. That's a lot of relief appearances. Remember, Ozzie loves the lefty/lefty, righty/righty matchups. It sometimes takes him a while to go get someone on the mound, but once he starts, he can go through pitchers pretty quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 10:10 PM) Yes there would be -- the crappy second lefties. With Hermanson looking to be injured, we now we have two potential bullpen holes. Not having two lefties is nothing to have a panic attack about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickman Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 11:05 PM) Um, just because you have it in your head that Politte and Cotts will suck doesn't mean Kenny does. If Hermanson was healthy, there wouldn't even be anything to really talk about. Kenny gambled that he would be. He was wrong. Now lets exhibit some patience and give the man a chance to do what he does best. Ok Jordan I am with you on the patience part, I understand where your coming from... He has until the end of the week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 (edited) Not having two lefties is nothing to have a panic attack about. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Okay, then take out the second lefty... Healthy & productive relievers: McCarthy Politte Cotts Jenks We are still short two relievers, based on your criteria. Edited March 14, 2006 by SSH2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jphat007 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 10:10 PM) Yes, there would be -- the crappy second lefties. With Hermanson looking to be injured, we now we have two potential bullpen holes. How many other teams in the MLB do you think would love to have that as their only holes. Seriously. The last two guys out of your bullpen as your only holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 10:11 PM) I don't think Cotts will suck. I don't think he'll be able to match last year's numbers, I don't see how any could expect that. They really were incredible and he is going to be in some hairier situations this year. I think Politte is going to be a dissapointment. Hermanson was talking retirement. Vizcaino was traded away. That's a lot of relief appearances. Remember, Ozzie loves the lefty/lefty, righty/righty matchups. It sometimes takes him a while to go get someone on the mound, but once he starts, he can go through pitchers pretty quickly. So what is Kenny supposed to do? Replace the whole bullpen because you don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that any of them can come close to repeating what they did last year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 10:13 PM) Okay, then take out the second lefty... Healthy & productive relievers: McCarthy Politte Cotts Jenks We are still short two relievers, based on your criteria. No, I said BEFORE Hermanson got hurt there was nothing really to get excited about. Obviously something has to be done now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 10:05 PM) You just hijacked the thread as well. I will say that, while I don't agree with the amount of vile words heaped at our farm system, I've been bashing the scrapheap that KW brought in to fill the back end of the bullpen since day 1.... Mark my words, one, possibly even two, of these guys will be making you swear at your TV this season. Why? because they were signed in the first place. If they're on the roster, they're in danger of being played. And trust me, with this bunch that's a dangerous option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 How many other teams in the MLB do you think would love to have that as their only holes. Seriously. The last two guys out of your bullpen as your only holes. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Our two bullpen holes last season were Marte and Vizcaino, right? While I didn't like either of them, Marte had a 3.77 ERA and Vizcaino had a 3.73 ERA. What two guys do we have that can replace that production? I know it's just ST but I'm not seeing it so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(quickman @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 10:12 PM) Ok Jordan I am with you on the patience part, I understand where your coming from... He has until the end of the week I win I see what you're saying, though. It probably was a little naive for some of us (me included) to think Hermanson would be alright. I was just hoping for the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 10:16 PM) Our two bullpen holes last season were Marte and Vizcaino, right? While I didn't like either of them, Marte had a 3.77 ERA and Vizcaino had a 3.73 ERA. What two guys do we have that can replace that production? I know it's just ST but I'm not seeing it so far. You don't think Bmac can match or exceed what Viz gave us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 You don't think Bmac can match or exceed what Viz gave us? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sure, I think so. But someone also has to apparently replace Hermanson now. And a second lefty has to apparently replace Marte. That's two holes, not one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(quickman @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 10:54 PM) I still think williamson is available. I know what the Cubs say no in the press, but I think its to get the asking price higher. The cubs have a few arms this year in the pen. Love to give them back gload. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why would the Cubs want a guy who's out of options? Hendry is trying to re-sign Derrek Lee as well. I'm hoping Ozzie manages this pitching staff like he did in the ALCS. MAybe not having them throw 9 innings each outing, but 7+ would be ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 10:19 PM) Sure, I think so. But someone also has to apparently replace Hermanson now. And a second lefty has to apparently replace Marte. That's two holes, not one. I agree. Like I said, Kenny took a gamble that Dustin would be alright. That obviously wasn't the case. I was just pointing out that before he got hurt, there was nothing to get too excited about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 10:13 PM) So what is Kenny supposed to do? Replace the whole bullpen because you don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that any of them can come close to repeating what they did last year? No, but he should anticipate who isn't going to be so good in 2006. Bullpens need to be turned over year after year. There aren't many relief pitchers who follow up great years with great years. If Hermanson is down for a while, which definitely appears to be the case, if Politte is the 2004 version of himself, if Javier Lopez is your second lefty, that will leave BMac, Cotts, and Jenks. If I were KW, I would have traded Politte this offseason. He had a great year, but the last time he pitched as much as he did last year, the next year his ERA was 5.66. Maybe he totally sucks, but I still don't understand letting Castro go. They could have avoided it by putting him on the 40 man I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 (edited) I agree. Like I said, Kenny took a gamble that Dustin would be alright. That obviously wasn't the case. I was just pointing out that before he got hurt, there was nothing to get too excited about. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, other than Hermanson's fluke career year season he had with mediocre stuff and striking no one out. I wouldn't have expected Hermanson to come close to repeating his numbers from last season. I would have expected an ERA in the high 3's or around 4 if he was 100% healthy. Edited March 14, 2006 by SSH2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 10:18 PM) You don't think Bmac can match or exceed what Viz gave us? He's better than Vizcaino, but do you really think Ozzie would put him in 65 times? Also, odds are he will be spending some time in the rotation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 10:23 PM) No, but he should anticipate who isn't going to be so good in 2006. Bullpens need to be turned over year after year. There aren't many relief pitchers who follow up great years with great years. If Hermanson is down for a while, which definitely appears to be the case, if Politte is the 2004 version of himself, if Javier Lopez is your second lefty, that will leave BMac, Cotts, and Jenks. If I were KW, I would have traded Politte this offseason. He had a great year, but the last time he pitched as much as he did last year, the next year his ERA was 5.66. Maybe he totally sucks, but I still don't understand letting Castro go. They could have avoided it by putting him on the 40 man I believe. But how would you know these things before the season even started? That's where I'm not understanding you. How could Kenny possibly know that Politte and Cotts might not be as good? Or anywhere near as good? Traded Politte? Are you nuts? Trade him for what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AddisonStSox Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 You guys do realize this has been the best thread on Soxtalk over the past two months, don't you? Bar none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 08:16 PM) Our two bullpen holes last season were Marte and Vizcaino, right? While I didn't like either of them, Marte had a 3.77 ERA and Vizcaino had a 3.73 ERA. What two guys do we have that can replace that production? I know it's just ST but I'm not seeing it so far. We also had a lot of holes in our lineup last year, with only two starters hitting .280, none hitting .300, and only one player with an OBP over .360. That's a lot more alarming than not having Marte and Vizcaino in the 'pen. I agree that KW needs to sign a veteran reliever and maybe bring up another from the minors at some point, but I think we're in better shape now overall than we were at this time last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 10:16 PM) Our two bullpen holes last season were Marte and Vizcaino, right? While I didn't like either of them, Marte had a 3.77 ERA and Vizcaino had a 3.73 ERA. What two guys do we have that can replace that production? I know it's just ST but I'm not seeing it so far. Marte appeared in 66 games, and Vizcaino in 65. If that's any indication how Ozzie will use the last 2 guys this year, an upgrade is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 10:25 PM) Well, other than Hermanson's fluke career year season he had with mediocre stuff and striking no one out. I wouldn't have expected Hermanson to come close to repeating his numbers from last season. I would have expected an ERA in the high 3's or around 4 if he was 100% healthy. You wouldn't take those numbers from him? I sure would. Especially since he wouldn't have been counted on to close this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 You wouldn't take those numbers from him? I sure would. Especially since he wouldn't have been counted on to close this year. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I totally would. But right now, he looks like he would have trouble putting up an ERA in the 5's, and that's if he even pitches for us this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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