Culpepper traded to Miami

[T R U]

Breaking News on ESPN..

 

I like this better than giving Drew Brees so much guaranteed money without knowing how good his shoulder will be.. Ill post more when i get the info

[Rowand44]

[J-MAN]

Breaking News on ESPN..

 

I like this better than giving Drew Brees so much guaranteed money without knowing how good his shoulder will be.. Ill post more when i get the info

That's fine but from what I have heard and read Culpepper's knee injury was much more severe than Brees shoulder.

 

They were talking this morning on ESPN radio that they won't even let Culpepper be examined and know one knows when he will be ready to play!

 

Sounds like an awfull risk but depends on what they gave up for him.

[RockRaines]

Culpepper has no knee. Good luck with that Miami.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Sounds like an awfull risk but depends on what they gave up for him.

 

Did I hear 2nd-round pick?

[iWiN4PreP]

lol. kool, get him outta our division.

[Balta1701]

Did I hear 2nd-round pick?

Yes, you did. For a second rounder...getting a guy 2 years removed from one of the best QB seasons in football history is a decent gamble. If it pays off, then the Dolphins are in the playoffs (especially with Chambers at WR). If it doens't pay off...then they've sacrificed some cap room and 1 second round pick, and they can come back & try a different QB in a year or two.

 

They just better make sure they have a backup. Reports when he got hurt said it might be mid-season 06 before he returns. They've probably changed recently, but who really knows when he'll be back.

[False Alarm]

the trade's pending a physical with miami's doctors. frerotte will be culpepper's backup (same as in minny, and he did a serviceable job with the fins last year). looks like a real nice move to me.

[whitesoxfan101]

Giving up a 2nd rounder for Culpepper >>>> Giving up a 2nd rounder for Feeley

 

Good gamble by Miami, I'd rather have the QB with a bad knee than the QB with a bad throwing shoulder. Daunte to McMichael and Chambers could be fun down there.

Edited March 14, 2006 by whitesoxfan101

[Phuck the Cubs]

The only question is now, since he's going to Miami, how many naked women will he touch there?

[T R U]

Apparently Culpepper is rehabbing freakishly and has told Miami he might be able to go before September..

 

QB with a bum knee >>>>>> QB with a bum shoulder

 

This is the first real QB weve had since Marino, I dont care if he misses a few games getting healthy, were a playoff team anyways next year and then getting Culpepper only makes us even stronger.. Great move IMO

[witesoxfan]

Boom or bust move right here. If Culpepper's healthy and stays healthy, he'll be huge for Miami. If not, well...

 

I like the move for Miami...hate it as a Bills fan of course.

 

Pending a physical of course. That is no guarantee.

[Jordan4life_2007]

The potential reward far outweighs any risk in this case. Good move by the Dolphins. I'm glad he's no longer in our division.

[WilliamTell]

I think it's a good deal for the Dolphins aswell, only giving up a 2nd round pick isn't to bad.

[T R U]

Culpepper has passed the physical and it is now official..

 

Also Gus Frerotte has been released, possibly more of a hint that they feel Culpepper is going to be ready to go for the start of the season..

 

Man, I am so pumped

[Balta1701]

Who do the Fins currently have as their #2 QB?

[T R U]

Who do the Fins currently have as their #2 QB?

 

As it stands right now their 2 roster QB's are Daunte Culpepper and Cleo Lemon.. They have Brock Berlin in NFLE right now and he looked somewhat promising in the pre season last year as a future backup..

 

They have contacted Tommy Maddux's agent so its possible he might be brought in for backing up, but Mularkey seems to like what he sees in the potential for Cleo Lemon..

[Felix]

Am I the only one that thinks the Dolphins overpaid for him? They bluffed that a team had been offering a second rounder last week, and all three teams called their bluff, retracting their offers. Now, even though Culpepper's value was decreased, they still give up a second rounder, which can be a very solid player. Culpepper's knee is shot, his salary is large (IIRC), and they could have gotten him for much, much less.

 

I don't think Culpepper will ever be the same player he was two years ago, and I think the Dolphins would have been better off going with a QB in the draft, or even signing Brees.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Felix

[GoodAsGould]

Dont the dolphins still have AJ Feeley or whatevr the dude they got from Philly... or was he released.

[DBAHO]

Dont the dolphins still have AJ Feeley or whatevr the dude they got from Philly... or was he released.

Got traded to San Diego. He'll be backing up Phillip Rivers (AKA A.J Smith's lovchild).

[T R U]

Am I the only one that thinks the Dolphins overpaid for him?  They bluffed that a team had been offering a second rounder last week, and all three teams called their bluff, retracting their offers.  Now, even though Culpepper's value was decreased, they still give up a second rounder, which can be a very solid player.  Culpepper's knee is shot, his salary is large (IIRC), and they could have gotten him for much, much less.

 

I don't think Culpepper will ever be the same player he was two years ago, and I think the Dolphins would have been better off going with a QB in the draft, or even signing Brees.

 

Dude, you must be the only one to think that..

 

Miami got a FRANCHISE QB for a 2nd round pick, not only that, they restructured his contract and actually SAVED money on the cap..

 

And for the record, Culpeppers career rating is 91.5 while also posting the 4th best QB performance in NFL history.. He is on a much better team now and is determined to come back 100%.. His knee is way ahead of schedule and he should be back for week 1..

 

Miami robbed Minnesota here, I dont know how you can argue against that with all things considered..

Edited March 16, 2006 by T R U

[Felix]

Miami got a former FRANCHISE QB with a bum knee for a 2nd round pick, not only that, they restructured his contract and actually SAVED money on the cap..

Fixed.

He also hasn't shown anything without a Randy Moss on his team. Moss acted as the safety net for him, and if he ever had any questions, he'd just throw it to Moss. Last year, it was pretty obvious that he wasn't comfortable, whether it be because he didn't have Moss or another reason. We'll see how he rebounds from his injury, and we'll see if he can do something without Moss. I, for one, think he will suffer.

 

Also, the point that they overpaid still stands. Culpepper's value fell after the Vikings bluff was called, yet the Dolphins *still* gave up a second rounder.

Edited March 16, 2006 by Felix

[T R U]

Fixed.

He also hasn't shown anything without a Randy Moss on his team.  Moss acted as the safety net for him, and if he ever had any questions, he'd just throw it to Moss.  Last year, it was pretty obvious that he wasn't comfortable, whether it be because he didn't have Moss or another reason.  We'll see how he rebounds from his injury, and we'll see if he can do something without Moss.  I, for one, think he will suffer.

 

Also, the point that they overpaid still stands.  Culpepper's value fell after the Vikings bluff was called, yet the Dolphins *still* gave up a second rounder.

 

Haha please.. Culpepper had his career year in a season were Moss was almost ther 3rd leading reciever on the team.. The "Culpepper is nothing without Moss bit" is growing tiresome.. And he isnt a former Franchise QB, he still is.. Lots of people have had knee injuries to come back just as strong, and Culpepper is already ahead of schedule as it is..

 

Last season Minnesota's offensive line was weak, they had new offensive coordinator, and they were weak at runningback..

 

How do you think he is gonna suffer when he has a pro bowl WR in Chris Chambers who put up outstanding numbers with a QB who had a 51% completion percentage? Culpepper despite struggling at the BEGINING of the year last year still had a 64.4% completion percentage..

 

Chambers is better than anything they had last year and can be just as effective as Moss was for Culpepper.. Ronnie Brown is better than any RB he has had.. Lets not forget Randy McMichael and Marty Booker.. Oh, and how about the fact that he is actually going to have a defense this year to help him out?

 

20,162 yards 64.4 comp% 135 TD 86 INT 91.5 Passer Rating in 7 seasons, holds the 4th best EVER season for a QB in NFL History, and is a 3 time Pro Bowler.. Go look at the numbers man..

 

Im sorry, but Culpepper is a franchise QB.. And to give one away for a 2nd round pick (A pick that will be in the 50's) is an absoloute steal.. The offense he will be coming into is going to be similiar to the offense that he ran in Minnesota under Scott Linehan because Saban has already said they are going to keep a lot of the same things..

 

This was an absoloute steal, a 2nd round pick for a pro bowler franchise QB? No question..

 

Culpepper has already said that he feels like a new man, the smile on his face when they announced him as Miami Dolphins QB Daunte Culpepper was enough to win me over.. I cant wait to see #8 slinging passes in South Florida next season.. And youll see that he hasnt lost anything and still is atop QB

[Felix]

Haha please.. Culpepper had his career year in a season were Moss was almost ther 3rd leading reciever on the team..

Moss had 13 TD's in 13 games. 'Nuff said.

 

Last season Minnesota's offensive line was weak

From what I saw of some of Culpepper's interceptions, they were his own fault. His line gave him enough time, and his receivers got themselves as open as they normally would, but Culpepper just didn't pull the trigger in time. The offensive line can only do so much, and if the QB holds onto the ball for too long, it's no longer the lines fault when something bad happens. Yea, the line wasn't the best, and did lead to some of his mistakes, but I give him equal blame.

 

Culpepper despite struggling at the BEGINING of the year last year still had a 64.4% completion percentage..

And he can complete all the passes he wants.. it doesn't mean much if his TD:INT ratio is 1:2.

 

20,162 yards 64.4 comp% 135 TD 86 INT 91.5 Passer Rating in 7 seasons, holds the 4th best EVER season for a QB in NFL History, and is a 3 time Pro Bowler.. Go look at the numbers man..

The past is the past. He was a great player before getting hurt and with one of the best receivers in the game on his team. This is the present, and after a severe knee injury. Lets see him do that again, and then I'll be convinved.

 

Culpepper has already said that he feels like a new man, the smile on his face when they announced him as Miami Dolphins QB Daunte Culpepper was enough to win me over..

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what you are supposed to do if you are hurt? You aren't exactly going to come out and say "I'm still in severe pain, and I don't know if I'll ever be as good as I was".

Edited March 17, 2006 by Felix

[T R U]

Moss had 13 TD's in 13 games.  'Nuff said.

From what I saw of some of Culpepper's interceptions, they were his own fault.  His line gave him enough time, and his receivers got themselves as open as they normally would, but Culpepper just didn't pull the trigger in time.  The offensive line can only do so much, and if the QB holds onto the ball for too long, it's no longer the lines fault when something bad happens.  Yea, the line wasn't the best, and did lead to some of his mistakes, but I give him equal blame.

And he can complete all the passes he wants.. it doesn't mean much if his TD:INT ratio is 1:2.

The past is the past.  He was a great player before getting hurt and with one of the best receivers in the game on his team.  This is the present, and after a severe knee injury.  Lets see him do that again, and then I'll be convinved.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what you are supposed to do if you are hurt?  You aren't exactly going to come out and say "I'm still in severe pain, and I don't know if I'll ever be as good as I was".

 

Ok I need to post this here.. its from a poster on Finheaven.com and its titled the Culpepper Manifesto.. Hope this will help you

 

He’s ours. A lot of people on this board are very strongly anti-Culpepper. The following should allay your concerns and help get you excited about our new QB.

Culpepper has been the most productive QB in NFL history. When you account for his rushing numbers, his production has been absolutely phenomenal. Over his career, Culpepper has 164 total TDs in 81 games, an average of more than 2 TDs per game. Compare that to the greatest QBs (production-wise) in NFL history:

 

Marino (429 in 242 games, an average of 1.77)

Favre (408 in 225 games, an average of 1.81)

PManning (253 in 128 games, an average of 1.97)

KWarner (121 in 73 games, an average of 1.65)

 

In short, Culpepper is the most prolific TD scoring QB on a per game basis in NFL history.

 

Next, look at total yards (rushing and passing). Culpepper has 22,639 total yards in 81 games, an average of 279.5 yards per game. Compare that to the greatest QBs (production-wise) in NFL history:

 

Marino (61448 in 242 games, an average of 254 yards per game)

Favre (55360 in 225 games, an average of 246 yards per game)

PManning (33854 in 128 games, an average of 264.5 yards per game)

KWarner (19474 in 73 games, an average of 266.7 yards per game)

 

So Culpepper is also the most productive QB in terms of yards from scrimmage in NFL history on a per game basis.

 

Then compare his INTs to the aforementioned guys. Culpepper has 86 in 81 games, an average of 1.06 per game.

 

Marino (1.04 per game)

Favre (1.13 per game)

PManning (1.015 per game)

KWarner (1.07 per game)

 

So Daunte is the most productive QB (on a per game basis) in NFL history in terms of both yards and TDs. His interception rate is comparable to or better than any of the guys that are even close (and they're not that close).

His completion percentage of 64.4 is the second-best in NFL history. And that is not in a dink-and-dunk West Coast offense. It’s not terribly surprising, as he holds the single season NCAA record for completion percentage at 73.4%. That is with a vertical passing game. In 2004 he completed an incredible 17 of 34 passes thrown more than 31 yards from scrimmage in the air. And no, it was not because of jump balls to Moss -- Moss caught only 3 of them.

Physically, he has a lot more size and speed than any QB should be allowed to have. He's the size of a DE and runs like a fullback. His rushing numbers are second only to Michael Vick among QBs.

Below are my responses to the criticisms I hear from the Culpepper haters:

 

The Knee

 

It is legitimate to be concerned about the knee, but this is an area we all need to defer to the doctors on. They are saying he is well ahead of schedule and will play next year. The trade hinges on his passing a physical, so if it goes through, that means the Fins docs say he’s OK. The decision on a QB of the future should not hinge on whether he'll be at full strength at the beginning of this year (this goes for Brees too). I can't think of a single QB whose career was ended or derailed by a kneee injury. I’ve asked in several threads if anyone could think of a single on and nobody came forward with any. In recent years, there has been virtually 100% recovery from knee injuries, including RBs, WRs and CBs who are much more dependent on their speed and cutting ability than a QB (even a mobile one) is. For those positions, the difference between 4.4 speed and 4.6 speed may be difference between star and scrub. Any loss int he ability to plant and cut on a dime fundamentally changes who that player is. Nonetheless, guys like EJames, Jamal Lewis, McGahee, etc. have all come back as good as new. For a QB, even a mobile one, it is much less important. Even if Culpepper goes from a 4.7 40 guy to 4.8 or 4.9, it won't make a huge difference. When RBs are able to come back from hideous knee injuries, it seems like a stretch to say that Culpepper can't or won't.

 

There is a long list of QBs who have played at a HOF level for years with “bad knees” – Marino, Namath, Elway, Stabler, etc.

 

The Fumbles

 

Yes, he does fumble a lot. However, even if you treat the fumbles as interceptions, his numbers are still great. A rushing attempt is akin to a completed pass, albeit usually a short one. They usually come on passing downs and are positive yardage plays. If you look at combined rushing and passing numbers and treat each rushing attempt as a pass attempt and a completion, each rushing TD as a passing TD, and each fumble as an interception, Culpepper's adjusted rating comes out to 92.6, which is a little below Payton Manning's adjusted career rating of 94.3, but is above Carson Palmer (90.9). Gus's 2005 adjusted rating is 69.9. Marino’s career adjusted rating is 86.7.

People keep citing to the total fumbles numbers, as opposed to fumbles lost, which is really the relevant number. He's lost an average of about 5 fumbles per season, which is about 2-3 more than most other QBs. BTW, Gus fumbled 13 times last year and lost 4, but I have never heard anyone on this board b****ing about that particular aspect of his game. Also, part of the reason Culpepper fumbles is that he runs with the ball, i.e., he actually gets tackled while holding the ball 100+ times per year. If the average RB had those carries instead of Culpepper, he'd fumble a few times too (Ronnie Brown had 4 fumbles in 239 touches and Ricky has 35 fumbles in approximately 2000 touches in his career).

 

The Boat

 

Give me a break. He is charged with getting a lap dance and touching the dancer's tushy. Are you such prudes that you find that to be outrageous conduct? Do you think no other NFL players get lap dances? Hell, Clinton Portis had a stripper pole and a bevy of strippers in his house. Do you really think the Fins players would be hesitant to follow his lead because he allegedly touched a stripper's tushy?

 

The Moss

 

Culpepper's great numbers are not because of Randy Moss -- any more than Montana/Young were products of Rice. Or any more than Manning is a product of Harrison. Almost every great QB has had some great WRs. In 2004, Mossed missed 3 games and was just a decoy in 2 others. In those 5 games, Culpepper completed 113 of 166 passes (68%) for 1179 yards, 9 TDs and 3 INTs, which comes out to a QB rating of 99. In other games, he was hurt and simply didn’t do much. For that season, if you exclude passes thrown to Moss, he completed 330 of 463 passes (71.3%), for 3950 yards and 26 TDs. Even if you assume that none of his INTs were on passes thrown to Moss, which is doubtful, his QB rating excluding Moss was 105.9. Moreover, Moss clearly didn't make Kerry Collins into the Pro Bowler this year, even though he was opposite other quality WRs.

 

The 2005 INTs

 

Culpepper had a very bad start to 2005. He had 8 picks in the first 2 games, but had 6 TDs and 4 INTs in the 4 games after that. He was playing for a new OC, with a new set of receivers and an OL that had lost its anchor, Pro Bowl center Matt Birk. The OL was really struggling -- he was sacked 31 times in just over 6 games. You can't disregard his career numbers based on 2 bad games at the start of the season. Even the best QBs will occasionally have a 3-4 INT game.

 

The Playoffs

 

True, Minnesota has not been a great team since he's been there, but they have consistently had one of the 5-6 worst defenses in the NFL. From 2000-04, the Vikes never had a defense that was better than 25th in the NFL. Even Marino had better defenses in the late 80s and early 90s. With a few exceptions, Minny had unremarkable running games during that time (especially if you exclude Culpepper's rushing numbers). Still, the Vikes were 39-41 during that time period, which is comparable to Marino's record from 1986-89 when the Fins defenses were bad (30-33). We all know that even a great QB cannot win with a bad defense.

When he’s been in the playoffs, he’s 2-2. His career playoff numbers are pretty respectable -- 73/134, 980 yds, 8 TDs and 5 INTs (82.3 rating). He had one terrible game against the Giants in 2001, a mediocre one against the Eagles in 2004, and two very good ones against the Saints in '01 and the Packers in '04 (total of 36/60, 618 yds, 7 TDs, 0 INTs).

 

The Money

 

Daunte is due to make $2 million this year, less than half of what Gus is due to be paid. Brees will undoubtedly cost several times that amount. The 3 years after this one, Culpepper is due to make around $6 million per year, which isn't much for an upper echelon QB. Brees would have cost more. Some are offended that he reportedly asked for more money, but it isn't clear that he did. His agent did, and then got fired for it. The Vikes owner had publicly said that he would re-evaluate Daunte's contract after this past season, so it wouldn't have been unusual for Daunte to expect him to do that.

The Backups

 

Some people argue that the fact that his backups have had success in Minny means he is a product of the system. When they make this argument, they usually selectively ignore the numbers of his backups who did not play well. Even so, the reality is that a lot of QBs will do well in a good offensive system, with a decent OL and some talent around him. The Viking backups success is hardly unique. Take a look at the QB ratings of the following backups, with the starter in parentheses:

 

Steve Young (Montana) 108.9

Steve Bono (Montana) 88.5

Jeff Kemp (Montana) 85.7

Scott Mitchell (Marino) 91.4

Craig Erickson (Marino) 86.3

Elvis Grbac (Young) 87.9

Jeff Garcia (Young) 89.9

Frank Reich (Kelly) 102.3

Jim Sorgi (Manning) 99.1

Matt Cassel (Brady) 89.4

Marc Bulger (Warner) 101.5

Trent Green (Warner) 101.8

Bernie Kosar (Aikman) 92.7

Rodney Peete (Aikman) 102.5

Jason Garrett (Aikman) 83.3

Billy Volek (McNair) 87.4

 

In addition to those, you have guys like Brooks, Brunell and Hasselbeck who looked good as backups to Favre and drew a lot in trades/FA. Same for Feeley behind McNabb.

 

None of this means that Culpepper (or any of the QBs listed in parentheses above) are not great QBs. They are. Culpepper has put up incredible numbers and is a proven commodity.

 

The Vikes improvement in the 2nd half of the season last year was not because Brad Johnson was better. It was because the OL, which was recovering from the loss of Matt Birk and a rookie at G, started to gel as the season went on. The OL gave up 29 sacks in the first 6 games. They gave up only 23 in the next 10 games. The other reason was that the defense improved dramatically in the second half of the season. In the first 7 games, the defense gave up 193 points, which is approximately 28 per game. In the next 9, they gave up 151 points, which comes out to an average of less than 17 per game. Gee, do you think a difference of 11 ppg allowed might make a difference in wins and losses?

 

Intelligence

 

First, and not that it is necessarily a true measure of intelligence, but Culpepper scored a 21 on the Wonderlic. This is better than Marino (14), McNabb (16), McNair (15), and a point less than Brett Favre (22). Obviously, the Wonderlic is not a foolproof indicator of the ability to understand NFL defenses.

 

What are good indicators of the ability to make decisions and read defenses is performance on 3rd downs, when blitzed, and in the red zone. On 3rd downs, NFL teams basically know you are passing and the defenses are at their most creative to stop the pass. Performance on blitzes shows the QBs ability to make decisions under pressure and find the open man in a very short time. Performance in the red zone shows what he can do with a short field in critical situations.

 

In 2004, Culpepper's performance on 3rd down and blitzes was phenomenal. On 3rd downs, he completed 93 of 134 (69.4%), for 1391 yards, 19 TDs and 3 INTs, which comes out to an absurd QB rating of 133.7. That year, on blitzes, he completed 101 of 159 (63.5%), for 1217, 15 TDs and 1 INT, which is a 115.7 rating. In the red zone, he completed 54 of 88 for 352 yards, 26 TDs and 2 INTs, for a rating of 158.2 (the maximum). These types of numbers simply are not possible if you can't read defenses and make good decisions. Do people think that every defense he faced was pure vanilla?

 

Yes, last year he struggled, especially in those first 2 games. But his 2003 numbers in these categories are comparable to his 2004 numbers.

 

3rd down -- 79/121, 1054, 12, 3 (Rating: 115.5)

Blitz -- 60/103, 785, 9, 4 (Rating: 95.3)

Red Zone -- 23/51, 147, 14, 2 (Rating: 126.8)

 

For comparison sake, Gus's numbers in these categories last year are:

 

3rd down -- 63/152, 813, 5, 5 (Rating: 56.2)

Blitz -- 73/162, 866, 5, 4 (Rating: 61.9)

Red Zone -- 28/65, 189, 12, 3 (Rating: 70.8)

 

Remember, these are in essentially the same Linehan offense (which we say we are keeping).

 

“Game Management”

 

A lot of people talk about certain QBs being good game managers. I hear that a lot about Brees and some Gusketeers also like to claim that he was a good game manager. I think that, in most cases, that is just someone's way of pumping up a guy they like on the basis of some intangible that cannot be verified or disproven. Let's face it, with the exception of occasional audibles, the coaches call the plays. Most of what people refer to as game management is really a reflection of the plays called by the coaches, not anything the QB has done.

 

That said, I think there is some QB "game management" in the way the guy plays on 3rd and 4th down. "Managing the game" basically boils down to how well the QB keeps the chains moving, which basically boils down to converting 3rd and 4th downs. Avoiding turnovers is another aspect of game management.

 

I was only able to find stats for this for the past 2 seasons. Culpepper’s conversion rate on 3rd and 4th downs has been excellent. Over the last 2 years, he has converted 98/196 (50%). This is the same as Payton Manning (119 of 238), but better than Brees (121/264 – 45.8%) and Brady (122/270 – 45.1%). Gus supporters claim he was a good game manager last year, but he converted only 50/160 third and 4th downs last year, which comes out to 31.25%. These numbers do not include plays in which the QB ran for a 1st down on 3rd or 4th down.

 

The Draft Pick

 

Giving up a 2nd rounder is a small price to pay (it's not clear to me now whether it is 2006 or 2007). Either way, there will be no one in the draft this year or next who is a proven commodity with Culpepper’s talent level. Certainly no one in the 2nd round. The price for high draft pick QBs is around $50 million over 6 years, with more than $20 million of that guaranteed. Culpepper’s contract is much more cap friendly. Clearly, the Fins decided that Brees’ price tag was simply too high.

 

Now stop crying about getting a 29-year old, physically dominant QB who has put up numbers over his 7 year career that compare favorably to the best who have ever played the position.