NCAA Refs/Gambling/Fixes

[whitesoxfan101]

Now I'm not one to complain about the refs normally, but the Illini have now lost twice in 5 years in the tourney due to the refs. As bad as 2001 was when we had 5 guys foul out and Arizona shot over 50 free throws, today might have been worse. At least in 2001 the Illini had 30 plus free throws, whereas today it was 39 to 11. The Illini were fouling, but so was Washington, and no way did Illinois commit 28 free throws more worth of fouls.

 

Now now, before you call me an Illini homer, let me point out I might have seen a game that topped them all in Gonzaga vs. Indiana. Final free throws in that game were I believe 41 to 6, and Gonzaga won by 10. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I am beginning to think due to gambling, fan base, and ESPECIALLY storyline reasons, that the refs are fixing these games. UConn vs. Washington will be a 1999 rematch, and Lord knows Gonzaga is "America's team". And in 2001, who do you want in the final 4? Mighty Lute Olson and Arizona, or Illinois who was less than a decade removed from a bull s*** probation period.

 

Go ahead and flame me, but to be honest if I researched this I'm sure there are way more examples of the refs deciding games that have nothing to do with the Big 10.

Edited March 19, 2006 by whitesoxfan101

[Rowand44]

Now I'm not one to complain about the refs normally, but the Illini have now lost twice in 5 years in the tourney due to the refs.  As bad as 2001 was when we had 5 guys foul out and Arizona shot over 50 free throws, today might have been worse.  At least in 2001 the Illini had 30 plus free throws, whereas today it was 39 to 11.  The Illini were fouling, but so was Washington, and no way did Illinois commit 28 free throws more worth of fouls.

 

Now now, before you call me an Illini homer, let me point out I might have seen a game that topped them all in Gonzaga vs. Indiana.  Final free throws in that game were I believe 41 to 6, and Gonzaga won by 10.  ARE YOU KIDDING ME?  I am beginning to think due to gambling, fan base, and ESPECIALLY storyline reasons, that the refs are fixing these games.  UConn vs. Washington will be a 1999 rematch, and Lord knows Gonzaga is "America's team".  And in 2001, who do you want in the final 4?  Mighty Lute Olson and Arizona, or Illinois who was less than a decade removed from a bull s*** probation period.

 

Go ahead and flame me, but to be honest if I researched this I'm sure there are way more examples of the refs deciding games that have nothing to do with the Big 10.

I'd be lying if I said that the stuff you said hasn't crossed my mind before, hell my dad actually drills it into my head a lot. He has some theories like this. I try not to believe this stuff though, I hope it's not the case.

[whitesoxfan101]

The NCAA is not a fraud, because that would be disrespectful of all frauds out there to say that. I would put nothing above them, including fixing games, especially when the NCAA Tournament and it's popularity is driven entirely by the gamblers and gambling opportunities. This goes far beyond Illinois, but the Illini and Indiana games just brought the issues to light. Those 2 games looked almost as if they were obviously fixed, but you just don't want to believe it.

[WHarris1]

You're gonna get flamed by people calling you an Illini homer but it makes a lot of sense.

[whitesoxfan101]

You're gonna get flamed by people calling you an Illini homer but it makes a lot of sense.

 

Of course it does, but people refuse to believe their beloved sports, ESPECIALLY college, are fixed. And let me point out again that the whole reason I started this thread was the Indiana/Gonzaga game, which to me was even more obvious than the Illini game today or in 2001.

[ZoomSlowik]

In the case of Illinois, it seems like it's simply a case of not attacking the basket enough. They're generally a perimeter oriented team that takes a lot of jumpers, making it hard to draw a lot of fouls. When they do go inside, it's typically an open shot or a quick shot by Augustine, making it harder to draw contact. This has happened to them on a lot of occasions this year, although it wasn't as bad a descrepancy. Washington on the other hand was constantly attacking the basket. Pretty much all of the fouls on the Illini occurred in the paint in the second half. I'll admit there were numerous BS calls on the perimeter in the first half, but I didn't really see that in the second.

 

As for the other games, I generally agree that Gonzaga and Duke get a lot of favorable calls, but at least in this game Mallon was a big factor inside. It's also hard to argue for Indiana when they jacked up 36 3's, which was over half their shots.

[ZoomSlowik]

Oh, I forgot about the Arizona game. One of my friends is convinced that Illinois threw the game, but I just don't buy it. First off, Arizona probably would have beat them anyways given the talent on that team. Second, Woods and Wright were killing them inside, and IIRC Jefferson was doing some damage as well. Lastly, Illinois was fouling a lot late in the game trying to extend the game. I think the last one was a major factor, accounting for like 15 of the free throws, maybe more.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

In the case of Illinois, it seems like it's simply a case of not attacking the basket enough. They're generally a perimeter oriented team that takes a lot of jumpers, making it hard to draw a lot of fouls. When they do go inside, it's typically an open shot or a quick shot by Augustine, making it harder to draw contact. This has happened to them on a lot of occasions this year, although it wasn't as bad a descrepancy. Washington on the other hand was constantly attacking the basket. Pretty much all of the fouls on the Illini occurred in the paint in the second half. I'll admit there were numerous BS calls on the perimeter in the first half, but I didn't really see that in the second.

 

As for the other games, I generally agree that Gonzaga and Duke get a lot of favorable calls, but at least in this game Mallon was a big factor inside. It's also hard to argue for Indiana when they jacked up 36 3's, which was over half their shots.

 

Illinois got jabbed, Indiana threw up 3's and missed and fouled. The Washington/Illinois game looked like a 4th quareter nba game.

[SnB]

In the case of Illinois, it seems like it's simply a case of not attacking the basket enough. They're generally a perimeter oriented team that takes a lot of jumpers, making it hard to draw a lot of fouls. When they do go inside, it's typically an open shot or a quick shot by Augustine, making it harder to draw contact. This has happened to them on a lot of occasions this year, although it wasn't as bad a descrepancy. Washington on the other hand was constantly attacking the basket. Pretty much all of the fouls on the Illini occurred in the paint in the second half. I'll admit there were numerous BS calls on the perimeter in the first half, but I didn't really see that in the second.

While I'll agree with you that illinois should have drove to the basket a bit more in the second half, I think that even when they did, there were a few no calls.

 

But saying that, that's not the biggest reason people are complaining. How many calls went against us today that consisted of touching a player running to the side of you? There were just way too many touch fouls called on their side. If you're going to call them like that, you have to do it for both teams.

[Gene Honda Civic]

You're gonna get flamed by people calling you an Illini homer but it makes a lot of sense.

Let's remove the Illini for a second, and talk solely about the Indy-Gonzaga game.

 

Go back and read Rex and Greasy's posts this year. Indy lives and dies by the three pointer. Without White, they never developed a solid interior game. Yes, they had Killingsworth, but he doesn't like to move his feet on defense so he often puts himself in foul trouble, leaving Indy with no credible inside threat. -- In the game, Indy shot 36 three-point attempts to Gonzaga's 10. You can't complain about not getting to the line, when you're spending that much time beyond the other[/] line.

 

Illinois is much the same way. The motion offense that flourished last year with three guards often stagnated without a player willing to drive the ball. Dee never took enough initiative to put the team on his shoulders. He was consistently far too content to let the shot clock run down and chuck up a three pointer.

 

Today, late in the game when Washington went to a zone defense, the Illini just stared at it like it was something they had never seen before. They spent most of the possessions with 5 players beyond the three point circle, which -- this may come as a surprise to some -- is an area of the floor where you don't get fouled with any regularity.

[WHarris1]

Let's remove the Illini for a second, and talk solely about the Indy-Gonzaga game.

 

Go back and read Rex and Greasy's posts this year. Indy lives and dies by the three pointer. Without White, they never developed a solid interior game. Yes, they had Killingsworth, but he doesn't like to move his feet on defense so he often puts himself in foul trouble, leaving Indy with no credible inside threat. -- In the game, Indy shot 36 three-point attempts to Gonzaga's 10. You can't complain about not getting to the line, when you're spending that much time beyond the other[/] line.

 

Illinois is much the same way. The motion offense that flourished last year with three guards often stagnated without a player willing to drive the ball. Dee never took enough initiative to put the team on his shoulders. He was consistently far too content to let the shot clock run down and chuck up a three pointer.

 

Today, late in the game when Washington went to a zone defense, the Illini just stared at it like it was something they had never seen before. They spent most of the possessions with 5 players beyond the three point circle, which -- this may come as a surprise to some -- is an area of the floor where you don't get fouled with any regularity.

But how about the fact that Illinois thrives on playing tough physical big 10 defense and they weren't allowed to?

[ZoomSlowik]

Illinois is much the same way. The motion offense that flourished last year with three guards often stagnated without a player willing to drive the ball. Dee never took enough initiative to put the team on his shoulders. He was consistently far too content to let the shot clock run down and chuck up a three pointer.

 

Today, late in the game when Washington went to a zone defense, the Illini just stared at it like it was something they had never seen before. They spent most of the possessions with 5 players beyond the three point circle, which -- this may come as a surprise to some -- is an area of the floor where you don't get fouled with any regularity.

 

I agree entirely. That's basically what I'm trying to say. The Illini don't have a real post prescence and they rarely take it all the way to the basket in any kind of traffic. Those are the major ways that you draw fouls and go to the free throw line, and Illinois just doesn't do that with any regularity. They've been held to the same number of free throw attempts several times this year. The difference is that Washington isn't that physical on defense while Illinois is, making the disparity a little more pronounced.

[ZoomSlowik]

But how about the fact that Illinois thrives on playing tough physical big 10 defense and they weren't allowed to?

 

It would be one thing if they weren't and the other team was, but Washington isn't exactly a defensive intimidator. That kind of reffing often happens out of conference and in the tournament. It's not like they suddenly started calling everything in the second half either. In fact, I thought the touch fouls and fouls on the perimeter were worse in the first half. Is it that difficult to expect them to adjust, especially when they're up 10 points in the second half and don't need to be quite so aggresive when they know that they're calling it close?

[Gene Honda Civic]

But how about the fact that Illinois thrives on playing tough physical big 10 defense and they weren't allowed to?

Adjust to the way the game is being called. Iowa got out physicaled on Friday, and I wasn't complaining about the refs.

 

NWST's big man, who eventually did foul out, out-Brunnered Iowa. He must have caused 5 or more empty possessions on plays where he just plain pushed players who were either called for travelling, or out of bounds, or in one case an offensive foul.

 

It started out as a physical game, and after he got away with a few should-be foul calls, he stepped it up a notch. He was bordering on dirty, but the refs were allowing him to get away with it, so he just kept getting bolder. Eventually it caught up with him and he even got a warning, but by that time he had pushed would-be fouls to let-em-play.

[Pauly8509CWS]

I agree that the Illini need to attack the basket, however, there were some ticky-tack calls that went against the Illini, especially the one that sent Washington to the line to give them the lead at the end of the 4th. The officials bailed out the Washington guard for dribbling into a double team of Augie and I think Pruitt? It was an unnecessary call at that point in the game and that actually was a deciding factor in the game. However, those of you that know me, know damn well that I dont blame officials for losses, this just seems to be one of those times that they played a large role in contributing to the losing cause.

[fathom]

If the fix was in, then why did the refs help out the Illini get back into the game at the end of the first half. They gave them like 4 straight basket-and-ones. A couple of those calls were very questionable. If the Illini didn't go into a stall game with about 6 minutes left on the clock, they win this game.

[Buehrle>Wood]

I think all(meaningful ones, anyway) NCAA games are fixed to a certain extent, and stuff like this needs to be stopped. Its helped Illinois before(see: UofA game last year) and it's hurt them(See:today) but one thing is for sure: it's getting ridiculous.

[fathom]

If the fix was in, then the refs would have never let Illinois get a double digit lead. I'm sorry, but saying the game was "fixed" is a pathetic statement. A person can complain all they want about the refs, but when ridiculous statements are made like that, people need to just step back and thing about what they're really saying.

[Rowand44]

If the fix was in, then the refs would have never let Illinois get a double digit lead.  I'm sorry, but saying the game was "fixed" is a pathetic statement.  A person can complain all they want about the refs, but when ridiculous statements are made like that, people need to just step back and thing about what they're really saying.

People talk about sports being fixed all the time. I hope to god it's not true but with how hard and heavy gambling is with the tournament and the superbowl and such, stuff like that certainly wouldn't shock me.

[ZoomSlowik]

I have a question for anyone that thinks that the Illini were intentionally screwed: Why would the powers that be want Washington to win? They weren't the favorites, it wasn't a major upset, they're not a powerhouse program, they don't have a massive fan base, and they don't have any big-name players that will draw a lot of viewers. There's no real reason to want Washington to stay in the tournament. In fact, it would probably slant the other way. Illinois is a visable program that made a monster run last year, they seem to have a growing fan base that travels well, and Dee Brown is a well-known, charismatic player. There's simply no real reason for the NCAA or any of it's partners to have a reason to favor Washington.

 

The only possible motivator is someone with monetary interests exerting influence on the game; either the refs themselves or someone exerting influence on the refs. That doesn't make much sense either though. Why would they pick this particular game in the entire field? There's a lot more money to be made in other games, where there's a much bigger line. They'd have a lot more to gain by trying to fix it in favor of someone like Bradley, Northwestern State, Wichita State, or any of the other upsets (no, I don't think it was a fix in any of those).

 

So basically, I'm trying to find a reason why someone would want to fix this game to favor Washington, and I don't see it. I think it was simply a tightly called game, which favors Washington a lot more than Illinois. Washington is an offensive minded team that wants to try to create easy baskets and is lax defensively, while Illinois is a physical defensive team that relies on a lot of jumpshots on offense. Because of that, the style of game the refs were calling clearly favored Washington, and Illinois failed to adjust.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

There was a fix against Kansas..The NCAA made all of the players suck..

 

haha wish it was that easy.

[WilliamTell]

When I read this thread I knew Gonzaga would be mentioned in it. But Gonzaga was getting fouled more than Indiana was. Gonzaga drew a lot more fouls than Indiana. That's what happens when Gonzaga plays the post compared to Indiana's shooting the 3 point shot. Honestly, tell me what you have against Gonzaga. They made the Sweet 16, farther than you thought they'd go, let's give them a little credit. It's not a 1 man team as most seem to think.

Edited March 19, 2006 by WilliamTell

[Jordan4life_2007]

We didn't play well today. Bottomline. Other than the 31-9 spurt, we played like s***. I love Dee as much as anybody, but he really let us down this year with his horrid shooting. He never got on track with his shot. We didn't attack inside as much as we should've. The bench, which I felt was a big key coming in, laid an egg. Yeah, the refs were pitiful. I still think we win if they even call the game 60/40 instead of 95/5 in favor of Washington. But we didn't help matters at all with our poor/stupid play.

[whitesoxfan101]

If the fix was in, then the refs would have never let Illinois get a double digit lead.  I'm sorry, but saying the game was "fixed" is a pathetic statement.  A person can complain all they want about the refs, but when ridiculous statements are made like that, people need to just step back and thing about what they're really saying.

 

The refs can't do much when Illinois gets as hot as they did late in the 1st/early in the 2nd half. As soon as Illinois cooled down though, it turned into free throws every possesion for Washington. And also, Illinois sucks against zones but there were several times where Illinois pushed the ball up the floor and got no love as the player driving to the basket (mainly Dee Brown at least 3 times just in the last 5 minutes) was hammered and missed. I really had not a ton of issues with Washington shooting 39 free throws, as I'd say probably 27 or so were legit. But combine Washington shooting about a dozen too many free throws with Illinois shooting almost as many too few, and there's your difference in the game.

 

And the Indiana live by the 3, die by the 3 stuff is laughable bull s*** and your being a blind NCAA defender if you use it. 41 to 6 can't be explained by 2 different styles of play, end of story.

[whitesoxfan101]

When I read this thread I knew Gonzaga would be mentioned in it. But Gonzaga was getting fouled more than Indiana was. Gonzaga drew a lot more fouls than Indiana. That's what happens when Gonzaga plays the post compared to Indiana's shooting the 3 point shot. Honestly, tell me what you have against Gonzaga. They made the Sweet 16, farther than you thought they'd go, let's give them a little credit. It's not a 1 man team as most seem to think.

 

Gonzaga will be in for a shock agianst UCLA's defense, unless the refs give them 35 more free throws again. They only beat Xavier due to the blind luck of Morrison just making everything he tossed up the last 5 minutes, and then the refs made sure they'd advance yesterday. If they beat UCLA, I'll give them their due and be gone for a week though.