Reds acquire Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena

[SoxAce]

This also goes to show how horrific the Reds starting pitching is. Arroyo would be a #4 (possible #3) on most teams but he instantly becomes the #1 on the Reds pitching staff. Boy is that sad.

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Mar 20, 2006 -> 10:38 PM)

More than Marte -- okay.

 

That's a compliment?

 

Ortiz and Ramirez will eventually come off contract -- you're gonna replace them with Pete Incaviglia II?

 

As for Arroyo -- if his st numbers confirm that he's a waste, that doesn't say much for Schilling...  But it's different for him, I'm sure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't really understand whats wrong with what I said.

 

Arroyo had been figured out, he was being hit hard at the most inoppurtune times last season, and everyone who followed him agreed he would be far from a solid pitcher this year.

 

Schilling is Schilling. Beckett is Beckett. Dustan Mohr is Dustan Mohr. Spring Training statistics don't change that.

[jackie hayes]

I don't really understand whats wrong with what I said.

 

Arroyo had been figured out, he was being hit hard at the most inoppurtune times last season, and everyone who followed him agreed he would be far from a solid pitcher this year.

 

Schilling is Schilling.  Beckett is Beckett.  Dustan Mohr is Dustan Mohr.  Spring Training statistics don't change that.

So st stats are meaningless? Or just for everyone but Arroyo?

 

I've seen a number of analyses which say that Arroyo could be good in 2006 (eg, HBT). I don't know where you're looking, but it's far from unanimous. Meanwhile, I have yet to see one analysis which says that Pena could be a good full time starter in the major leagues. The guy has never shown an ounce of patience.

 

Look, you're right on the splits. But Pena has never been anything but mediocre at best as a full time starter. JC, he can't start in Cincinatti. He's a temp boost at best, and imho, it only pays if the rotation stays healthy -- a 70-30 bet, imho. But not at all a long term solution.

[RME JICO]

Arroyo was the most expendable pitcher that had enough upside and decent contract to trade for a position that the Sawks clearly needed more depth in.

 

I just think the Sawks could have gotten more for Arroyo.

 

Pena is barely a Major Leaguer caliber player. A 5:1 K:BB ratio is horrible. He has more career strikeouts than hits and walks combined. Reminds me of Borchard.

 

 

If you were just going off ST stats, the Sawks would be hurting:

 

Spring Training Stats

 

Schilling 9.00 ERA, 5 Ks, 0 BBs

Papelbon 6.23 ERA, 7 Ks, 5 BBs

Beckett 6.75 ERA, 4 Ks, 2 BBs

Arroy 10.03 ERA, 7 Ks, 6 BBs

Clement 0.00 ERA, 3 Ks, 0 BBs

Wakefield 0.00 ERA, 7 Ks, 5 BBs

[Frank the Tank 35]

I'm going to preface this by saying that personally I would not want Wily Mo on the White Sox. He is everything that is disgusting about baseball... free-swinging, all-or-nothing K-machine. However, Petcota thinks this guy has all the potential in the world. I'm not one to buy into every stat I read, but there is something to be said for it. If someone's gonna say that Pena can only hit lefties, then certainly Arroyo can only get righties out. Lefties batted .288 against him last year (.284 for his career). Arroyo's only attractive because of his salary, otherwise he is what he is- a mediocre, run-of-the-mill pitcher. The Reds shouldn't have wasted their time with middling talent like Arroyo. His flyballing ways are bound to screw him over at the GAB a la Eric Milton. If they were going to trade a highly rated petcota player like Pena, they should have traded him to the A's since Billy eats stats for breakfast. I know, outfield surplus in Oakland... get the Dodgers involved, they're looking for an outfielder. Arroyo's 29, but how long do you think it's going to take for the Reds to be competitive? By the time the Reds are ready to compete, Arroyo will be a back-of-the-rotation starter (not that he isn't already). They should have traded for a young stud pitching prospect but instead they just blew a huge trading chip.

[RME JICO]

The problem is that there is a premium on pitching. So teams give up more for pitching than for positional players. Also, teams can get more for pitching, so in reality the Sawks could have gotten more for Arroyo, but Pena was not going to get the Reds anymore than that.

 

Sawks needed depth in the Outfield and they got it. Reds needed more pitching and they got it.

[SSH2005]

I don't really understand what you're saying.  Everybody in the American League had Arroyo figured out, and he wasn't an effective option against lefties in the least.

 

I don't know who I'd rather have between the two, but its a moot point.

 

Spring Training stats mean nothing?  They certainly shouldn't be weighted highly but it was clear that Arroyo's struggles late last season were not just 'bad starts' after watching him pitch this Spring.

 

Pena has an incredible amount of upside.  More than Marte at a similar age and they gave up a player that wasn't perticularly needed.

 

The deal works for both teams but the Red Sox definitly got the better of the deal and with that being said acquired a player with no ceiling in terms of his potential.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The White Sox traded a AAAA reliever in Bajenaru for a good utility infielder in Cintron and you said that it wasn't a steal. But trading a starting pitcher with a cheap contract who is on par with Matt Clement in terms of production for a good outfielder with upside is more of a steal? Come on...

 

A decent starting pitcher like Arroyo with a dirt-cheap contract (3-years, $11.25 million) has a lot of value in the current market. You pretty much know what you are going to get from Arroyo -- he's a league average #4 or #5 starter with a really cheap contract. Those are very expensive these days.

 

Until Wily Mo Pena progresses, all he is right now is an outfielder with potential. He's a guy with a career line of .248 / .303 / .477 / .780 and has only walked 54 times but has struck out 288 times. That's a 5.33-to-1 strikeout-to-walk ratio. Not pretty to watch. Right now, Pena looks a lot like 1993 Sammy Sosa but Sosa actually had the benefit of taking steroids to get to the next level. Pena will have to do it with his own natural talent and ability. Will he do it? Well, that's still up in the air at this point. Pena is still a gamble.

 

It makes more sense for the Red Sox than it does for the Reds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why? The Reds have needed pitching forever and even without Pena their offense will be really, really good. Ryan Freel will get more playing time now as well and he would look good at the top of many team's lineups.

 

Meanwhile, the Red Sox have Papelbon and Lester coming up soon to replace Arroyo. They will have Wily Mo Pena to replace Trot Nixon in RF in 2007 so they can let Nixon go via free agency. This is simply a good trade for both teams that makes sense for both teams.

Edited March 21, 2006 by SSH2005

[Kyyle23]

It makes more sense for the Red Sox than it does for the Reds.

 

How so? The reds NEED pitching, that has been obvious since they put all of their chips on Ken Griffey Jr. The Red Sox do not NEED Wily Mo Pena's offense, in fact, after watching last years playoffs and the way last year played out for the Red Sox, they need and have needed bullpen help. Riske, Seanez and Tavarez just dont make me think that Boston has a good enough bullpen to mask any problems that could arrive if a starter goes down. Plus, you dont know if Foulke is ever going to be the same or if he will even be good enough to run out there at all with those knee injections he is getting.

 

To me, Boston once again added more offense where it wasnt needed.

[JoeBatterz]

Peter Gammons compared Pena to a young Jesse Barfield and think he can take off in the same way.

[SSH2005]

Peter Gammons compared Pena to a young Jesse Barfield and think he can take off in the same way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Peter Gammons is a Red Sox homer.

[fathom]

The White Sox traded a AAAA reliever in Bajenaru for a good utility infielder in Cintron and you said that it wasn't a steal.  But trading a starting pitcher with a cheap contract who is on par with Matt Clement in terms of production for a good outfielder with upside is more of a steal?  Come on...

 

A decent starting pitcher like Arroyo with a dirt-cheap contract (3-years, $11.25 million) has a lot of value in the current market.  You pretty much know what you are going to get from Arroyo -- he's a league average #4 or #5 starter with a really cheap contract.  Those are very expensive these days.

 

 

I really like Wily Mo, but this was a great post by you jabroni. Pena was a free swinger with the Reds, where everyone just swings for the fences. It will be interesting if the Red Sox try to make him a more disciplined hitter. Arroyo is on the downside of his career though, as is Clement. I'm surprised that the Reds couldn't have gotten more for Pena. They probably would have been better off trying to trade Dunn, and getting back a better starting pitcher. All I know is that I've seen Wily Mo, and he can be goofy on the field. The Red Sox better make sure he acts more Papi-ish, and not Manny-ish.

[greasywheels121]

You all just need to put each other on ignore.

[Frank the Tank 35]

Regardless of value going one way or another, this was just a dumb trade by the Reds IMO. By the time the Reds are ready to compete again, Arroyo will be an afterthought. It just looks to me like an attempt not to finish in last place, trading for the sake of trading, trying to look like you're improving. I boo this trade.

[Chisoxfn]

Good trade for the Red Sox.  Pena has a ton of potential.

He has a lot of potential, but Arroyo should be a pretty solid to good pitcher in the NL. Plus the Reds have a much greater need for starting pitching than they do high potential outfielders that may not make it.

 

I like Pena, but he still has question marks, just like Kearns still does as well.

[witesoxfan]

Regardless of value going one way or another, this was just a dumb trade by the Reds IMO.  By the time the Reds are ready to compete again, Arroyo will be an afterthought. 

 

Arroyo could be an afterthought come August...at the very least, I do not see him ending his current contract in a Cincinnati uniform.

 

The more I think about it, the more I read into it, it makes sense for both teams long term...both teams I think were undervaluing their players a bit, and it worked out in the end for both. Pena could end up putting up .300 40 120 .380/.570/.950 type numbers within the next 3-4 years, whereas Arroyo could potentially be traded at the deadline for nearer his true value, thus allowing Cinci to get 2-3 good solid prospects for him.

 

Cincinnati fans better hope that if there is one aspect of Terry Ryan's game Krivsky has acquired, it's his scouting ability. Terry Ryan is still reaping the benefits from trading Chuck Knoblauch, a trade that happened nearly 10 years ago, in the form of Carlos Silva and Jason Bartlett.

[DBAHO]

These 2 may not be done (Wayne Krivsky's been reading my posts)

 

The pitching-starved Reds have been eyeing relief pitcher Jermaine Van Buren, who was sent to the minors last week with the first round of cuts.