Afghanistan to enforce Death Penalty...

[Rex Kickass]

This is what we're fighting for?

 

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireSt...TC-RSSFeeds0312

 

The prosecutor, Abdul Wasi, said he had offered to drop the charges if Rahman converted back to Islam, but he refused.

 

"He would have been forgiven if he changed back. But he said he was a Christian and would always remain one," Wasi told AP. "We are Muslims and becoming a Christian is against our laws. He must get the death penalty."

[WCSox]

Throwing out the Taliban was a huge step forward, but you're not going to change everyone's minds overnight. Sadly, this doesn't surprise me.

[Rex Kickass]

I think a condition for our aid and support should be making sure being a specific religion isn't punishable by death by the government.

[Balta1701]

I think a condition for our aid and support should be making sure being a specific religion isn't punishable by death by the government.

Um, what exactly is the alternative? Pull aid out of Afghanistan, let the warlords spend another 2-3 years building up money (and weapons) from the opium crop, and then watch the Central Government fall, followed by more years of civil war or a return of the Taliban?

[WCSox]

Um, what exactly is the alternative?  Pull aid out of Afghanistan, let the warlords spend another 2-3 years building up money (and weapons) from the opium crop, and then watch the Central Government fall, followed by more years of civil war or a return of the Taliban?

 

It's kind of difficult to FORCE another nation to abide by the rules of Democracy. And it's very unfortunate that American lives and tax dollars are being spent so that we can play nanny to these childish, ass-backward nations.

[BigSqwert]

It's kind of difficult to FORCE another nation to abide by the rules of Democracy.  And it's very unfortunate that American lives and tax dollars are being spent so that we can play nanny to these childish, ass-backward nations.

So why are we in Iraq again?

[kapkomet]

Um, what exactly is the alternative?  Pull aid out of Iraq, let the insurgents spend another 2-3 years building up money (and weapons) from the oil reserves, and then watch the Central Government fall, followed by more years of civil war or a return of the Saddamists?

I fixed that for you.

[southsideirish71]

This is what we're fighting for?

 

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireSt...TC-RSSFeeds0312

 

 

Nice religion of peace. If you draw cartoons of our prophet, you must die. If you are another religion, you must die. I am surprised that they just dont rent some lions so we can go back to the good old Roman days.

[kapkomet]

Nice religion of peace.  If you draw cartoons of our prophet, you must die.  If you are another religion, you must die.  I am surprised that they just dont rent some lions so we can go back to the good old Roman days. 

There's a lot of people out there that basically say the "muslim version" of the Crusades is what the Quran calls for. Everyone is to be purged that are "non-believers in the profit Muhammed".

 

Meh. Tom-ah-toe, tom-ay-toe. MAN MADE religion is horrible.

[southsideirish71]

There's a lot of people out there that basically say the "muslim version" of the Crusades is what the Quran calls for.  Everyone is to be purged that are "non-believers in the profit Muhammed".

 

Meh.  Tom-ah-toe, tom-ay-toe.  MAN MADE religion is horrible.

 

What they did in the Crusades under the flag of Christianity was wrong back then, and what they are doing today is wrong now.

 

The religion is not the problem, its the people and their interpretation of what they believe God wants. The true clergy of any religion is going to push non-violence, and being good to one another. You get some other people who decide to push their agenda of what they interpret their religious text to be. Religion should never equal Violence. In Christianity Jesus gave his own life, without a fight, and even told his apostles not to resist with violence. A few hundred years later a few power hungry morons decide that they need to reclaim the holy land from the evil muslims. So they twist the words to incite the weak minded to kill a bunch of people for Jesus, the peacemaker. Now we have some weak minded people who think that their religion is telling them to eraticate all those who are the infidels. People should use that brain of theirs a bit more, and ask Does Allah, the merciful, really want the death of the entire world that isnt muslim?

Edited March 21, 2006 by southsideirish71

[BigSqwert]

MAN MADE religion is horrible.

Isn't all religion man made?

[kapkomet]

Isn't all religion man made?

Strictly by definition, why yes, it is. But I put that there for the emphasis.

[Balta1701]

The Afghan Government may be trying to find a way out of this while still saving face with its people.

 

An Afghan man facing a possible death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity may be mentally unfit to stand trial, a state prosecutor said Wednesday amid growing international condemnation of the case.

 

Abdul Rahman, 41, has been charged with rejecting Islam, a crime under this country's Islamic laws. His trial started last week and he confessed to becoming a Christian 16 years ago. If convicted, he could be executed.

 

"We think he could be mad. He is not a normal person. He doesn't talk like a normal person," prosecutor Sarinwal Zamari told The Associated Press.

 

Moayuddin Baluch, a religious adviser to President Hamid Karzai, said Rahman would undergo a psychological examination.

 

"If he is mentally unfit, definitely Islam has no claim to punish him," he said. "He must be forgiven. The case must be dropped."

[NorthSideSox72]

What they did in the Crusades under the flag of Christianity was wrong back then, and what they are doing today is wrong now.

 

The religion is not the problem, its the people and their interpretation of what they believe God wants.  The true clergy of any religion is going to push non-violence, and being good to one another.  You get some other people who decide to push their agenda of what they interpret their religious text to be.  Religion should never equal Violence.  In Christianity Jesus gave his own life, without a fight, and even told his apostles not to resist with violence.  A few hundred years later a few power hungry morons decide that they need to reclaim the holy land from the evil muslims.  So they twist the words to incite the weak minded to kill a bunch of people for Jesus, the peacemaker.  Now we have some weak minded people who think that their religion is telling them to eraticate all those who are the infidels.  People should use that brain of theirs a bit more, and ask Does Allah, the merciful, really want the death of the entire world that isnt muslim?

This is very true and very well put.

 

And it stands in direct opposition to your previous post, labeling all of Islam as violent.

 

[vandy125]

What they did in the Crusades under the flag of Christianity was wrong back then, and what they are doing today is wrong now.

 

The religion is not the problem, its the people and their interpretation of what they believe God wants.  The true clergy of any religion is going to push non-violence, and being good to one another.  You get some other people who decide to push their agenda of what they interpret their religious text to be.  Religion should never equal Violence.  In Christianity Jesus gave his own life, without a fight, and even told his apostles not to resist with violence.  A few hundred years later a few power hungry morons decide that they need to reclaim the holy land from the evil muslims.  So they twist the words to incite the weak minded to kill a bunch of people for Jesus, the peacemaker.  Now we have some weak minded people who think that their religion is telling them to eraticate all those who are the infidels.  People should use that brain of theirs a bit more, and ask Does Allah, the merciful, really want the death of the entire world that isnt muslim?

 

I would almost have to say that you get people with an agenda first, then they say "How can I interpret this religious text so that it fits with my agenda?"

[GoodAsGould]

Nice religion of peace.  If you draw cartoons of our prophet, you must die.  If you are another religion, you must die.  I am surprised that they just dont rent some lions so we can go back to the good old Roman days. 

 

 

You say this than you go on and say its not the religion but the individuals.... kind of hypocritical.

[NorthSideSox72]

I would almost have to say that you get people with an agenda first, then they say "How can I interpret this religious text so that it fits with my agenda?"

Probably true a lot of the time.

[jackie hayes]

I just don't get it. Chapter 1, Article 2 of the Afghan constitution:

The religion of the state of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is the sacred religion of Islam.  Followers of other religions are free to exercise their faith and perform their religious rites within the limits of the provisions of law.

So the only way this makes sense to me is... Some judges decided that all "other religions" do not fall "within the limits of the provisions of law" (as they see Islamic law) per se. So "followers of other religions are free to exercise their faith" as long as they don't exercise their faith. Is that about right? 'It's just stupid enough to work...'

 

Didn't Karzai appoint the courts? How did this happen?

[KipWellsFan]

Prime Minister Stephen Harper says Afghanistan's president has assured him an Afghan man who converted to Christianity will not be executed.

 

Harper said on Thursday President Hamid Karzai had "conveyed to me that we don't have to worry about any such eventual outcome" during a telephone conversation on Wednesday.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/20...rper060323.html

[southsider2k5]

I just don't get it.  Chapter 1, Article 2 of the Afghan constitution:So the only way this makes sense to me is...  Some judges decided that all "other religions" do not fall "within the limits of the provisions of law" (as they see Islamic law) per se.  So "followers of other religions are free to exercise their faith" as long as they don't exercise their faith.  Is that about right?  'It's just stupid enough to work...'

 

Didn't Karzai appoint the courts?  How did this happen?

 

You guys have to understand Islam a little better. The guy isn't being killed because he is a Christian. He is being killed because he was Islamic and converted to Christianity, which is a mortal sin according to the Koran. There is a difference there.

[Rex Kickass]

The prosecutor in this case suddenly wants to drop the charges, saying that the defendant is insane - in a convenient way to get out of the issue. However, the judge is refusing the motion and insisting the trial goes on.

 

If this man is put to death, how should that affect our relationship with Afghanistan?

[NorthSideSox72]

The prosecutor in this case suddenly wants to drop the charges, saying that the defendant is insane - in a convenient way to get out of the issue. However, the judge is refusing the motion and insisting the trial goes on.

 

If this man is put to death, how should that affect our relationship with Afghanistan?

Well, it seems that there are legal conflicts the Afghans need to resolve - the Constitution allows for freedom to practice any religion, but also allows for Islam to be part of government function. In cases like this, how do you harmonize the 2?

 

That's a tough question, Rex. I am not sure if it should effect our relationship with them at all.

[southsider2k5]

The prosecutor in this case suddenly wants to drop the charges, saying that the defendant is insane - in a convenient way to get out of the issue. However, the judge is refusing the motion and insisting the trial goes on.

 

If this man is put to death, how should that affect our relationship with Afghanistan?

 

Which this is a really smart political move because in the Koran, insanity is a reason not to put someone to death.

 

 

Well, it seems that there are legal conflicts the Afghans need to resolve - the Constitution allows for freedom to practice any religion, but also allows for Islam to be part of government function.  In cases like this, how do you harmonize the 2?

 

That's a tough question, Rex.  I am not sure if it should effect our relationship with them at all.

 

To be fair to them, in their eyes this is harmony. The Koran preaches for respect for those whose faiths are of Jewish and Christian backrounds, I believe they call them faiths of the book. Remember the Koran believes basically in the bible and includes lots of stuff from it. They just don't believe in Christ as as the son of God, he was a prophet, and they believe that Mohammeds preachings were the next chapter of the "bible", kind of like the new testament updated the old testament for Christians, and changed things around some. One of those changes was that conversion away from Islam was a mortal sin. They don't say being a Christian by itself is a mortal sin, in fact they command respect for them unless something else has happened.

[Balta1701]

Well, it seems that there are legal conflicts the Afghans need to resolve - the Constitution allows for freedom to practice any religion, but also allows for Islam to be part of government function.  In cases like this, how do you harmonize the 2?

Are you sure the Afghan constitution allows for that? An independent group set up by the U.S. Government called the "United States Commission on International Religious Freedom" has, as far as I can tell, complained repeatedly to the President that the Afghan Constitution does not do so.

 

Before the constitution was passed, they said This about it:

 

(The Constitution) fails to include a specific guarantee for individual rights to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as set forth in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to both of which Afghanistan is party.

 

In a letter to Mr. Bush yesterday, they said:

On several previous occasions, the Commission has raised concern that the Afghan constitution’s failure to include adequate guarantees of freedom of religion and expression for members of the country’s majority Muslim community could lead to unjust criminal accusations of apostasy and blasphemy.  With no guarantee of the right to religious freedom for all individuals, together with a judicial system instructed to enforce Islamic principles and Islamic law, the door is open for a harsh, unfair, or even abusive interpretation of religious orthodoxy to be officially imposed, violating numerous human rights and stifling political dissent for Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

 

The omission of religious freedom guarantees in the Afghan constitution is compounded by a repugnancy clause that states that “no law can be contrary to the beliefs and provisions of Islam.”  The constitution also provides under Article 130 that “When there is no provision in the Constitution or the law with respect to a case under consideration, the court shall follow the provisions of the Hanafi jurisprudence.”

[NorthSideSox72]

Are you sure the Afghan constitution allows for that?  An independent group set up by the U.S. Government called the "United States Commission on International Religious Freedom" has, as far as I can tell, complained repeatedly to the President that the Afghan Constitution does not do so.

 

Before the constitution was passed, they said This about it:

In a letter to Mr. Bush yesterday, they said:

I assumed that jackiehays' quote, from Chapter I Article II of the Afghan constitution, was correct. I did not verify it myself. If it is not, along with other parts I have seen quoted in news clips, then that obviously changes things.

Edited March 24, 2006 by NorthSideSox72