SSH2005 Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 I hope he didn't need Cooper to tell him that. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, that's not all that Cooper sees wrong with Thornton... http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb...t=.jsp&c_id=cws But pitching coach Don Cooper told me Monday morning that he has followed this hurler for a couple of seasons, even looking at tape of him last year, and already sees one change that needs to be made with his mechanics. He seems excited to have Thornton as part of the staff. http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb...t=.jsp&c_id=cws Cooper has seen tape of Thornton and feels he needs more of a "back-leg ride" to finish his pitches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Mar 21, 2006 -> 07:29 AM) Why does everyone doubt this Don Cooper's ability? He has more success stories than anyone this side of Leo Mazzoni, and yet there are still the snide remarks about him. Does anyone really believe that we win the world series with out Cooper's reclaimation projects of Jose Contreras, Neal Cotts, Bobby Jenks, and Jon Garland? Heck for good measure you could even throw in Esteban Loiaza who Coop fixed, and then we traded to get the guy who started all 3 game ones for us in the playoffs. Don Cooper deserves the benefit of the doubt when he asks Kenny to get him someone, at least until he gets proven wrong a few times. He's not god. Why did Danny Wright suck? Scot Schoeneweis? What happened to Marte? It took 12 months, and almost 200IP to get Contreras on track. Can we wait that long for Thornton? How come Vizcaino didn't improve? El Duque sure looked sorry for most of the season. How come Loaiza couldn't come anywhere near matching 2003 in '04? Shouldn't Coop get the blame there too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Mar 21, 2006 -> 01:29 PM) He's not god. Why did Danny Wright suck? Scot Schoeneweis? What happened to Marte? It took 12 months, and almost 200IP to get Contreras on track. Can we wait that long for Thornton? How come Vizcaino didn't improve? El Duque sure looked sorry for most of the season. How come Loaiza couldn't come anywhere near matching 2003 in '04? Shouldn't Coop get the blame there too? Vizcaino still wasn't terrible last year, and El Duque and Marte spent much of the year fighting injuries. Schoeneweis was actually non terrible before he got hurt given the position he was put in. And Danny Wright...well...he just wasn't that good in the first place. Cooper doesn't have a perfect record, I understand what you're saying, but let's at least give him a shot with this guy. Think of it this way...we gave up a guy who we were going to lose in 12 days to the waiver wire, and at least we got something for it. If Cooper teaches him to throw strikes, then suddenly we have 2-3 of the best left handed relievers in baseball. If not, then he chews up some junk innings when we're already down by 10 or after Thome and Konerko combine for 7 home runs to put us up by 15. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Mar 21, 2006 -> 03:29 PM) He's not god. Why did Danny Wright suck? Scot Schoeneweis? What happened to Marte? It took 12 months, and almost 200IP to get Contreras on track. Can we wait that long for Thornton? How come Vizcaino didn't improve? El Duque sure looked sorry for most of the season. How come Loaiza couldn't come anywhere near matching 2003 in '04? Shouldn't Coop get the blame there too? Not even Leo Mazzone is "god." But Coop does have enough of a proven track record that if he says he can fix him, it's worth a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Mar 21, 2006 -> 04:29 PM) He's not god. Why did Danny Wright suck? Scot Schoeneweis? What happened to Marte? It took 12 months, and almost 200IP to get Contreras on track. Can we wait that long for Thornton? How come Vizcaino didn't improve? El Duque sure looked sorry for most of the season. How come Loaiza couldn't come anywhere near matching 2003 in '04? Shouldn't Coop get the blame there too? -Danny Wright wasn't that good, and had a ton of injuries. -Schoenweis was here for how long, and of that how long was he healthy? -Marte actually should be listed as another success story for Cooper seeing as the Sox snatched him from Pittsburgh for nearly nothing and turned him into one of the best lefties in baseball, that is until by all accounts he quit listening to everyone and turned into a crybaby who you couldn't correct or you would hurt his feelings. -Hernandez was hurt most of the year, surprise. -Loiaza went back to his pre-White Sox form of not listening to his managers and pitching coaches, which is what bought him his ticket out of Chicago. -Vizcaino really didn't do much, his numbers were pretty much what he had done in previous years, except instead of being the set up man, he was in middle and long relief for a team that used neither very often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Mar 21, 2006 -> 06:25 PM) -Danny Wright wasn't that good, and had a ton of injuries. -Schoenweis was here for how long, and of that how long was he healthy? -Marte actually should be listed as another success story for Cooper seeing as the Sox snatched him from Pittsburgh for nearly nothing and turned him into one of the best lefties in baseball, that is until by all accounts he quit listening to everyone and turned into a crybaby who you couldn't correct or you would hurt his feelings. -Hernandez was hurt most of the year, surprise. -Loiaza went back to his pre-White Sox form of not listening to his managers and pitching coaches, which is what bought him his ticket out of Chicago. -Vizcaino really didn't do much, his numbers were pretty much what he had done in previous years, except instead of being the set up man, he was in middle and long relief for a team that used neither very often. So when a pitcher does well it's because of Cooper, and when a pitcher does poorly it's because he didn't listen and was injured. How long will Thornton take to straighten out? How many game will he cost us in the process? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmmmbeeer Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Mar 21, 2006 -> 06:32 PM) So when a pitcher does well it's because of Cooper, and when a pitcher does poorly it's because he didn't listen and was injured. How long will Thornton take to straighten out? How many game will he cost us in the process? As the 10th or 11th reliever, mopup guy, probably not many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 22, 2006 Author Share Posted March 22, 2006 As the 10th or 11th reliever, mopup guy, probably not many. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Vizcaino and Marte were pretty much our 10th and 11th relievers last season. Vizcaino pitched 70 innings. Marte pitched 45.1 innings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmmmbeeer Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 21, 2006 -> 06:39 PM) Vizcaino and Marte were pretty much our 10th and 11th relievers last season. Vizcaino pitched 70 innings. Marte pitched 45.1 innings. That's an unfair comparison being there were guys shuffled in and out of the real last bp spots (Walker, Sanders, Shingo, Adkins (49ip/4losses)). Marte is also different being Oz put him in situations for him to regain his confidence. Damaso failed miserably. I just don't see Ozzie doing the same with the new guy being he's NEVER showed any reason to have much confidence in him in a critical situation. Bottom line is, regardless of how ya twist it, thornton will not get many opportunities to blow games. Think of how little of Shingo we saw after he lost the closer's role. That's thornton in a nutshell until/if he gets on track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 If Thornton doesn't do the job they'll get someone else. Simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Thanks for the info everybody. The positive thing about this guy is it seems that his problems can be corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Mar 21, 2006 -> 06:25 PM) -Marte actually should be listed as another success story for Cooper seeing as the Sox snatched him from Pittsburgh for nearly nothing and turned him into one of the best lefties in baseball, that is until by all accounts he quit listening to everyone and turned into a crybaby who you couldn't correct or you would hurt his feelings. He should actually be considered Nardi Contreras's success story. Marte was brought in during spring training of 2002. Nardi Contreras was fired during the 2002 season. Also...what took so long with Garland? You need 2 years of struggling under a pitching coach to turn him into a good pitcher? I'm personally wondering myself how much Garland, Cotts, Politte, Hermanson, and Contreras were affected by AJ. Also in Contreras's case, how much of his success was due to Duque? Hell, I'll take it a step further, how much were Mark Buehrle and Freddy helped by AJ? How much was Jenks? Coop is a great pitching coach - I'm not trying to take anything away from him - but AJ is a great catcher, and to take anything away from him is wrong as well. And besides those two, simple maturation will do it as well, along with being used in the proper situations and having confidence in your ability to accomplish your assigned task, thus leading to Ozzie having a large impact. I don't think you can point your fingers at any one person in the White Sox organization and say you get all the credit for it. More than 1 person helped all these pitchers get to where they are now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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