SSH2005 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Pablo isn't going anywhere. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Which is a shame. Ozuna will barely see any playing time with Mackowiak, Cintron, and Gload on the team. I'd rather have a good reliever than a pinch runner on the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 27, 2006 -> 01:38 AM) Which is a shame. Ozuna will barely see any playing time with Mackowiak, Cintron, and Gload on the team. I'd rather have a good reliever than a pinch runner on the team. Mack is going to be the primary backup outfielder and I believe Pablo will give Tad a break at least once a week and bat 2nd. Plus he is a nice weapon to have off the bench cause of his speed. I'm not huge on having 7 relievers, I believe it's going to be hard enough as it is to find innings for some of the middle guys, I'm not sure we need an extra who really might never pitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Mack is going to be the primary backup outfielder and I believe Pablo will give Tad a break at least once a week and bat 2nd. Plus he is a nice weapon to have off the bench cause of his speed. I'm not huge on having 7 relievers, I believe it's going to be hard enough as it is to find innings for some of the middle guys, I'm not sure we need an extra who really might never pitch. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Cintron can also play 2B and I would use him there before Ozuna. The only thing that Ozuna provides that Cintron doesn't is his speed. The first guy I would dump is Thornton but he seems to be Cooper's project and is likely here to stay. I'm assuming that Thornton is going to be bad this season (not a bold prediction). Regardless, a good reliever like Nelson would help us win more games than having Ozuna on the bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 27, 2006 -> 02:04 AM) Cintron can also play 2B and I would use him there before Ozuna. The only thing that Ozuna provides that Cintron doesn't is his speed. The first guy I would dump is Thornton but he seems to be Cooper's project and is likely here to stay. I'm assuming that Thornton is going to be bad this season (not a bold prediction). Regardless, a good reliever like Nelson would help us win more games than having Ozuna on the bench. Nelson hasn't been very good in a while and yes I know Cintron can play 2nd but like I said I think that is going to be pablos job. What is Nelson going to be our newly found roogy? Nelson hasn't been able to get out lefties for a long, long time now. We don't need him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RME JICO Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 27, 2006 -> 03:04 AM) Cintron can also play 2B and I would use him there before Ozuna. The only thing that Ozuna provides that Cintron doesn't is his speed. The first guy I would dump is Thornton but he seems to be Cooper's project and is likely here to stay. I'm assuming that Thornton is going to be bad this season (not a bold prediction). Regardless, a good reliever like Nelson would help us win more games than having Ozuna on the bench. I agree. Ozuna will have less of an impact this year with Mackowiak and Cintron taking up most of the playing time. Ozuna would pinch run here and there, but that is probably it. Since Gload is out of options, this just makes sense. Nelson was one of the relievers I was thinking about right after the Vazquez trade to go along with Quantrill. Nelson would be a great cheap pickup who would be reliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) Nelson hasn't been very good in a while and yes I know Cintron can play 2nd but like I said I think that is going to be pablos job. What is Nelson going to be our newly found roogy? Nelson hasn't been able to get out lefties for a long, long time now. We don't need him. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, Nelson was good last season. Meanwhile, Thornton can't get anybody out. He walks the world. There are a lot more righty hitters than lefties in the MLB. Why are we carrying a LOOGY like Logan or Lopez then? A guy who can dominate righties has much more value than a guy who can dominate lefties. And I sure hope that Ozzie doesn't play Ozuna at 2B when Iguchi sits considering Cintron is better than Ozuna. Edited March 27, 2006 by SSH2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 27, 2006 -> 02:15 AM) Actually, Nelson was good last season. Meanwhile, Thornton can't get anybody out. He walks the world. There are a lot more righty hitters than lefties in the MLB. Why are we carrying a LOOGY like Logan or Lopez then? A guy who can dominate righties has much more value than a guy who can dominate lefties. And I sure hope that Ozzie doesn't play Ozuna at 2B when Iguchi sits considering Cintron is better than Ozuna. The guy pitched a whole 9 innings the 2nd half last year and got beat around in those innings he did pitch. He's old, he was once one of the most dominate relievers in the game but he just doesn't have much left in the tank. As far as him dominating righties, if the game is on the line I'd rather have Neal, Cliff or Bobby in there. Jeff is just breaking down, he's not going to be effective for a whole season and when you watch him pitch you can see that his frisbee just doesn't have the same snap it used to. I really don't think this team needs him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 The guy pitched a whole 9 innings the 2nd half last year and got beat around in those innings he did pitch. He's old, he was once one of the most dominate relievers in the game but he just doesn't have much left in the tank. As far as him dominating righties, if the game is on the line I'd rather have Neal, Cliff or Bobby in there. Jeff is just breaking down, he's not going to be effective for a whole season and when you watch him pitch you can see that his frisbee just doesn't have the same snap it used to. I really don't think this team needs him. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So you would rather have Matt Thornton, Boone Logan, and/or Javier Lopez in the bullpen than Jeff Nelson? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 27, 2006 -> 02:27 AM) So you would rather have Matt Thornton, Boone Logan, and/or Javier Lopez in the bullpen than Jeff Nelson? To be honest, I would rather give Thornton and Logan a shot because the last two guys in the pen are not going to be used much and those two have some upside where Nelson has absolutely 0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 To be honest, I would rather give Thornton and Logan a shot because the last two guys in the pen are not going to be used much and those two have some upside where Nelson has absolutely 0. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'll take actual production over the possibility of upside any day of the week. Nelson has had good seasons recently. Thornton has never had a good season in his career and Logan is an unproven, barely Single A pitcher. I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 27, 2006 -> 02:35 AM) I'll take actual production over the possibility of upside any day of the week. Nelson has had good seasons recently. When exactly? The guy was ok last year and he barely pitched. He sucked in 04 and wasn't very good in 03 either. This isn't the dominate Nelson from his prime seattle days anymore. Just watch him pitch a few innings and you'll see that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) When exactly? The guy was ok last year and he barely pitched. He sucked in 04 and wasn't very good in 03 either. This isn't the dominate Nelson from his prime seattle days anymore. Just watch him pitch a few innings and you'll see that. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Last season, Nelson was pretty good -- 36.2 IP, 3.93 ERA, 1.47 WHIP, .237 BAA. He was bad in 2004 but he was good in 2003 -- 55.3 IP, 3.74 ERA, 1.35 WHIP. But you trust in Thornton and Logan? Thornton has been terrible in both two seasons of his career and Logan has pitched a grand total of 5.1 innings at Single A. How could you question Nelson's ability but be fine with Thornton and Logan? I can actually show you that Nelson has had good seasons in the recent past. You can't actually show me that either Thornton or Logan have had good seasons to prove that they are better options than Nelson. By the way, here's another reason why it makes no sense to bash Nelson's inability to get lefties out... Luis Vizcaino (2005 stats vs. lefties): 28.0 IP, 1.82 WHIP, .321 BAA We did just fine with Vizcaino even though lefties shellacked him all last season. Edited March 27, 2006 by SSH2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 27, 2006 -> 02:50 AM) Last season, Nelson was pretty good -- 36.2 IP, 3.93 ERA, 1.47 WHIP, .237 BAA. But you trust in Thornton and Logan? Thornton has been terrible in both two seasons of his career and Logan has pitched a grand total of 5.1 innings at Single A. How could you question Nelson's ability but be fine with Thornton and Logan? I can actually show you that Nelson has had good seasons in the recent past. You can't actually show me that either Thornton or Logan have had good seasons to prove that they are better options than Nelson. By the way, here's another reason why it makes no sense to bash Nelson's inability to get lefties out... Luis Vizcaino (2005 stats vs. lefties): 28.0 IP, 1.82 WHIP, .321 BAA We did just fine with Vizcaino even though lefties shellacked him all last season. When did I ever say that I trust either Matt or Boone? I think Nelson is done and I'd rather give the other two the opportunity because they both have some potential while the only potential Nelson has is to get even worse. Now we're throwing viz out there to prove that Nelson is going to be good? Mmmkay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) When did I ever say that I trust either Matt or Boone? I think Nelson is done and I'd rather give the other two the opportunity because they both have some potential while the only potential Nelson has is to get even worse. Now we're throwing viz out there to prove that Nelson is going to be good? Mmmkay. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I posted that to show that it made no sense for you to say that Nelson isn't worth much because he can't get lefties out. Vizcaino couldn't get lefties out either last season. Would you not want Vizcaino right now because he couldn't get lefties out? It was my response to this post... What is Nelson going to be our newly found roogy? Nelson hasn't been able to get out lefties for a long, long time now. We don't need him. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Edited March 27, 2006 by SSH2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 27, 2006 -> 03:00 AM) I posted that to show that it made no sense for you to say that Nelson isn't worth much because he can't get lefties out. Vizcaino couldn't get lefties out either last season. Would you not want Vizcaino right now because he couldn't get lefties out? First off I never said he's not worth much just because he can't get lefties out, that is one of the many reasons. The fact is, I don't think Jeff has anything left, watch him pitch and tell me that frisbee is unhittable like it used to be because it's not, it hangs up there to hit a lot now when before you couldn't touch that pitch. Notice also how Viz almost pitched as many innings against lefties last year as Nelson pitched for the entire year. I just don't think Nelson would help this team, that is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) Eh, I still think that Nelson will have a better season than Thornton. He's the main guy I want to replace with a better reliever. Logan at least seems to throw consistent strikes. Thornton is like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. A contending team shouldn't have Matt Thornton in its bullpen. Edited March 27, 2006 by SSH2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 27, 2006 -> 08:07 PM) Eh, I still think that Nelson will have a better season than Thornton. He's the main guy I want to replace with a better reliever. Logan at least seems to throw consistent strikes. Thornton is like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. A contending team shouldn't have Matt Thornton in its bullpen. The Matt Thornton of old sucks. We get it. It's been said a million times, and everyone knows it by now. If KW passes on Nelson, it's obviously because they think he's got nothing left in the tank, and they think Thornton they can fix, and become a productive member of this bullpen, then that's the way they're gonna go. And if you look at likes of Neal Cotts, who didn't start out well, and has now become probably the best member of this bullpen, that should give you at least a little bit of hope. Looking at Nelson from last season, he only pitched 1IP or more 5 times out of 22 after July. Can the Sox afford to carry another specialist who can't pitch multiple innings, if they're going to already carry Logan and / or Lopez? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) Looking at Nelson from last season, he only pitched 1IP or more 5 times out of 22 after July. Can the Sox afford to carry another specialist who can't pitch multiple innings, if they're going to already carry Logan and / or Lopez? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, I definately think they are only going to keep one of Logan and Lopez. The runner-up will serve as backup insurance in the minors. With McCarthy in the bullpen, it really isn't a big deal that Nelson is only a one inning reliever. McCarthy can pitch multiple innings and Cotts can pitch two innings. I guess I just like the idea of adding a veteran reliever to the bullpen. Politte is just about the only veteran reliever in our bullpen. Another guy who might be worth a look is Steve Karsay, who is currently with the Indians. It seems like the Indians are leaning towards Danny Graves for their last bullpen spot and Karsay will probably opt to become a free agent if he doesn't make the team. Edited March 27, 2006 by SSH2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Considering he was pitching on a minor league contract so he wasn't going to be any kind of financial burden if he made the team, there has to be a reason the Cardinals released Nelson. They, and they have seen him pitch more than anyone on this board this spring, may think he would be inneffective. Its possible those numbers he put up were put up against lower level guys. He basically is a ROOGY at this point, maybe they don't have room for that, but considering that's what he's been for several season, if that's the reason its curious as to why they would sign him in the first place. They could have tried to trade him, but evidently he has no trade value, or the terms of his contract prohibited that. He has had a reputation of not being a very good clubhouse guy, and is 39 years old. If he was so good, he wouldn't have modeled as many uniforms as he has the past several years. That said, Hawk has always seemed like a huge fan of his, and KW contemplated bringing him in a couple years ago. I'm sure they are thinking about it. I have been harping about the bullpen for several months, but I would not be upset if they passed on Nelson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Mar 27, 2006 -> 03:31 AM) The Matt Thornton of old sucks. We get it. It's been said a million times, and everyone knows it by now. If KW passes on Nelson, it's obviously because they think he's got nothing left in the tank, and they think Thornton they can fix, and become a productive member of this bullpen, then that's the way they're gonna go. And if you look at likes of Neal Cotts, who didn't start out well, and has now become probably the best member of this bullpen, that should give you at least a little bit of hope. Looking at Nelson from last season, he only pitched 1IP or more 5 times out of 22 after July. Can the Sox afford to carry another specialist who can't pitch multiple innings, if they're going to already carry Logan and / or Lopez? Oh, cmon DBAH0. You know as well as I do that if Thornton sucks now, he'll always suck. There's no such thing as a good pitching coach. It's all a myth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Considering he was pitching on a minor league contract so he wasn't going to be any kind of financial burden if he made the team, there has to be a reason the Cardinals released Nelson. They, and they have seen him pitch more than anyone on this board this spring, may think he would be inneffective. Its possible those numbers he put up were put up against lower level guys. He basically is a ROOGY at this point, maybe they don't have room for that, but considering that's what he's been for several season, if that's the reason its curious as to why they would sign him in the first place. They could have tried to trade him, but evidently he has no trade value, or the terms of his contract prohibited that. He has had a reputation of not being a very good clubhouse guy, and is 39 years old. If he was so good, he wouldn't have modeled as many uniforms as he has the past several years. That said, Hawk has always seemed like a huge fan of his, and KW contemplated bringing him in a couple years ago. I'm sure they are thinking about it. I have been harping about the bullpen for several months, but I would not be upset if they passed on Nelson. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The timing of Nelson's release allowed the Cardinals to avoid paying him an $800k salary. As for his numbers this spring, he did well except for one minor league game. The way his minor league deal was set up was, if he didn't make the team he could get his release ... very common for deals like his. Tim Redding has the same situation. The Cardinals brought him in to compete, and as it turned out they felt they had a better in house option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 The timing of Nelson's release allowed the Cardinals to avoid paying him an $800k salary. As for his numbers this spring, he did well except for one minor league game. The way his minor league deal was set up was, if he didn't make the team he could get his release ... very common for deals like his. Tim Redding has the same situation. The Cardinals brought him in to compete, and as it turned out they felt they had a better in house option. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Another reason they cut Nelson loose is because Josh Hancock, whom they claimed off waivers from the Reds, is also pitching lights-out this spring. He's younger (27) than Nelson (39) and will earn less money than him. The Cardinals just didn't feel like paying Nelson $800,000 when they had a younger alternative who is also having a great spring... http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/ml...t=.jsp&c_id=stl Instead, Nelson was told that he was being released. Nelson, 39, pitched well this spring, but not well enough in the club's eyes to justify guaranteeing the $800,000 salary he would have received on the Major League roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Mar 27, 2006 -> 02:52 PM) Another reason they cut Nelson loose is because Josh Hancock, whom they claimed off waivers from the Reds, is also pitching lights-out this spring. He's younger (27) than Nelson (39) and will earn less money than him. The Cardinals just didn't feel like paying Nelson $800,000 when they had a younger alternative who is also having a great spring... http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/ml...t=.jsp&c_id=stl Is Hancock the guy the Reds released because he's fat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Is Hancock the guy the Reds released because he's fat? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Indeed, I said it was a stupid move then... http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46682 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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