Guest Worker

[Texsox]

Well, I'm playing catch up, but no surprise, y'all know what a big Dubya supporter I am, and I applaud his guest worker proposal. I wish there was a mechanism for citizenship after the six year program, but it's a giant step in the right direction.

[EvilMonkey]

I think we should have a guest worker program that lets us import guest worker reporters. If Mexican journalists were flooding into the United States and taking jobs as reporters and editors at half the pay being earned by American reporters and editors, maybe people in the media would understand why the argument about "taking jobs that Americans don't want" doesn't always apply. THEN, maybe we can start on politicians. All the graft, at half the price! Woo hoo!

[mac9001]

Well, I'm playing catch up, but no surprise, y'all know what a big Dubya supporter I am, and I applaud his guest worker proposal. I wish there was a mechanism for citizenship after the six year program, but it's a giant step in the right direction.

 

From what i saw in a 10 min blurb on MSNBC after the six year worker visa is over the person will be presented with an opportunity for permanent residence if they can meet certain requirements. The only two i remember is pay a $1000 fine and learn English, but there were more.

Edited March 29, 2006 by mac9001

[NorthSideSox72]

Well, I'm playing catch up, but no surprise, y'all know what a big Dubya supporter I am, and I applaud his guest worker proposal. I wish there was a mechanism for citizenship after the six year program, but it's a giant step in the right direction.

I'm all for a guest worker program. One of the few Bush proposals in the last few years that I agreed with.

 

Its too bad that the moderate, reasonable idea on this has been destroyed by the extremist elements (racist nationalists on one hand, people trying to argue that illegal immigration is somehow OK on the other).

[Texsox]

From what i saw in a 10 min blurb on MSNBC after the six year worker visa is over the person will be presented with an opportunity for permanent residence if they can meet certain requirements. The only two i remember is pay a $1000 fine and learn English, but there were more.

 

That was a counter proposal to Bush's plan. I've also seen the years dropped to 3 from 6. I like the longer time.

 

Immigrants do take jobs in all sectors. The software companies begged congress for more H1B Visas to bring in more software developers because there wasn't enough Americans. At the lower end of things, we could not feed ourselves without illegals in the agriculture industry. Making them legal is one step to assuring ourselves a future with food. I'm more worried about our dependence on overseas food than our dependance on overseas oil.

[WCSox]

Its too bad that the moderate, reasonable idea on this has been destroyed by the extremist elements (racist nationalists on one hand, people trying to argue that illegal immigration is somehow OK on the other).

 

Agreed on the latter point, but I'm getting really sick of the race card being used to demonize people who oppose illegal activity.

 

Ideally, we'd be able to ship them all out and make them come back legally. But that's obviously not feasible. In general, the guest worker program is the best solution.

[Cknolls]

Why can't we tax the money these illegals repatriate to Mexico?

 

Seems like it would help defray the costs of the social services they swallow.

 

It would also deprive the Mexican gov't from the second largest source of income in their country.

[mac9001]

Why can't we tax the money these illegals repatriate to Mexico?

 

Seems like it would help defray the costs of the social services they swallow.

 

It would also deprive the Mexican gov't from the second largest source of income in their country.

 

 

Well, that's essentially what the guest worker program does, right?

[Cknolls]

Well, that's essentially what the guest worker program does, right?

How so?

[Texsox]

Why can't we tax the money these illegals repatriate to Mexico?

 

Seems like it would help defray the costs of the social services they swallow.

 

It would also deprive the Mexican gov't from the second largest source of income in their country.

 

Do you have a source as to the second largest source of income to the Mexican gov't?

 

BTW, there is a large number of Americans living in Mexico. They found their Social Security checks go a lot farther in Mexico. Thre are several towns that are almost 100% American.

 

We should also stop Americans from travelling overseas and spending money there. Plenty of nice spots in the US. We have to deprive these countries of our dollars.

[WCSox]

Why can't we tax the money these illegals repatriate to Mexico?

 

Unfortunately, it's such little money that it wouldn't be worth the administrative cost of doing so.

 

BTW, there is a large number of Americans living in Mexico. They found their Social Security checks go a lot farther in Mexico. Thre are several towns that are almost 100% American.

 

If they're not living there illegally, it's not an issue.

 

We should also stop Americans from travelling overseas and spending money there. Plenty of nice spots in the US. We have to deprive these countries of our dollars.

 

Right, because it's our job as American taxpayers to pump money into foreign economies.

[Cknolls]

Do you have a source as to the second largest source of income to the Mexican gov't?

 

BTW, there is a large number of Americans living in Mexico. They found their Social Security checks go a lot farther in Mexico. Thre are several towns that are almost 100% American.

 

We should also stop Americans from travelling overseas and spending money there. Plenty of nice spots in the US. We have to deprive these countries of our dollars.

If these people were travelling they would eventually go home, right. Isn't that what travelling is?

[Cknolls]

I think we should have a guest worker program that lets us import guest worker reporters.  If Mexican journalists were flooding into the United States and taking jobs as reporters and editors at half the pay being earned by American reporters and editors, maybe people in the media would understand why the argument about "taking jobs that Americans don't want" doesn't always apply.  THEN, maybe we can start on politicians.  All the graft, at half the price!  Woo hoo!

 

You got to love Thomas Sowell.

[Cknolls]

Unfortunately, it's such little money that it wouldn't be worth the administrative cost of doing so.

If they're not living there illegally, it's not an issue.

Right, because it's our job as American taxpayers to pump money into foreign economies.

16.60 billion as of 2004. Not chump change.

[WCSox]

16.60 billion as of 2004. Not chump change.

 

 

I stand corrected.

[Texsox]

16.60 billion as of 2004. Not chump change.

 

Against an over trillion dollar deficit, it is chump change. Would you care to compare that to foreign aid dollars or the interest we pay countries like China on our debt?

 

And where did you get that number and what does it represent? How can twelve million people create 16 billion for the Mexican government?

[southsider2k5]

Against an over trillion dollar deficit, it is chump change. Would you care to compare that to foreign aid dollars or the interest we pay countries like China on our debt?

 

And where did you get that number and what does it represent? How can twelve million people create 16 billion for the Mexican government?

 

Just doing the math that sounds like $1333, per year, per person. Its really not that much if you think about it. In fact I would imagine the number is WAY higher in reality.

[WCSox]

In fact I would imagine the number is WAY higher in reality.

 

Considering that the estimate of 12 million undocumented people is just that, it probably is much higher.

[Balta1701]

Against an over trillion dollar deficit, it is chump change. Would you care to compare that to foreign aid dollars or the interest we pay countries like China on our debt?

Compared to foreign aid it's actually quite significant, according to the foreign aid numbers from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). Total U.S. foreign Aid (aid for development, disasters, etc.) was about $19 billion in the last year numbers are fully available at their page (2004).

[Controlled Chaos]

You got to love Thomas Sowell.

Speaking of Sowell

 

Guests or gate crashers

Mar 28, 2006

by Thomas Sowell ( bio | archive | contact )

 

Immigration is yet another issue which we seem unable to discuss rationally -- in part because words have been twisted beyond recognition in political rhetoric.

We can't even call illegal immigrants "illegal immigrants." The politically correct evasion is "undocumented workers."

 

Do American citizens go around carrying documents with them when they work or apply for work? Most Americans are undocumented workers but they are not illegal immigrants. There is a difference.

 

The Bush administration is pushing a program to legalize "guest workers." But what is a guest? Someone you have invited. People who force their way into your home without your permission are called gate crashers.

 

 

If truth-in-packaging laws applied to politics, the Bush guest worker program would have to be called a "gate-crasher worker" program. The President's proposal would solve the problem of illegal immigration by legalizing it after the fact.

 

We could solve the problem of all illegal activity anywhere by legalizing it. Why use this approach only with immigration? Why should any of us pay a speeding ticket if immigration scofflaws are legalized after the fact for committing a federal crime?

 

Most of the arguments for not enforcing our immigration laws are exercises in frivolous rhetoric and slippery sophistry, rather than serious arguments that will stand up under scrutiny.

 

How often have we heard that illegal immigrants "take jobs that Americans will not do"? What is missing in this argument is what is crucial in any economic argument: price.

 

Americans will not take many jobs at their current pay levels -- and those pay levels will not rise so long as poverty-stricken immigrants are willing to take those jobs.

 

If Mexican journalists were flooding into the United States and taking jobs as reporters and editors at half the pay being earned by American reporters and editors, maybe people in the media would understand why the argument about "taking jobs that Americans don't want" is such nonsense.

 

Another variation on the same theme is that we "need" the millions of illegal aliens already in the United States. "Need" is another word that blithely ignores prices.

 

If jet planes were on sale for a thousand dollars each, I would probably "need" a couple of them -- an extra one to fly when the first one needed repair or maintenance. But since these planes cost millions of dollars, I don't even "need" one.

 

There is no fixed amount of "need," independently of prices, whether with planes or workers.

 

None of the rhetoric and sophistry that we hear about immigration deals with the plain and ugly reality: Politicians are afraid of losing the Hispanic vote and businesses want cheap labor.

 

What millions of other Americans want has been brushed aside, as if they don't count, and they have been soothed with pious words. But now the voters are getting fed up, which is why there are immigration bills in Congress.

 

The old inevitability ploy is often trotted out in immigration debates: It is not possible to either keep out illegal immigrants or to expel the ones already here.

 

If you mean stopping every single illegal immigrant from getting in or expelling every single illegal immigrant who is already here, that may well be true. But does the fact that we cannot prevent every single murder cause us to stop enforcing the laws against murder?

 

Since existing immigration laws are not being enforced, how can anyone say that it would not do any good to try? People who get caught illegally crossing the border into the United States pay no penalty whatever. They are sent back home and can try again.

 

What if bank robbers who were caught were simply told to give the money back and not do it again? What if murderers who were caught were turned loose and warned not to kill again? Would that be proof that it is futile to take action, when no action was taken?

 

Let's hope the immigration bills before Congress can at least get an honest debate, instead of the word games we have been hearing for too long.

 

 

Guests or gate crashers? Part II

Mar 29, 2006

by Thomas Sowell ( bio | archive | contact )

 

Bogus arguments are a tip-off that you wouldn't buy the real reasons for what someone is doing. Phony arguments and phony words are the norm in discussions of immigration policy.

It starts with a refusal to call illegal aliens "illegal aliens" and ends with asking for "guest worker" status for people who are not guests but gate crashers. As for the substantive arguments, they are as phony as the verbal evasions.

 

What about all those illegal workers that we "need"? Many of the illegals are working in agriculture, producing crops that have been in chronic surplus for decades. These surplus crops are costing the American taxpayers billions of dollars in government storage costs and in the inflated prices created by deliberately keeping much of this agricultural output off the market.

 

Do we "need" illegal workers to produce bigger surpluses?

 

In California, surplus crops grown and harvested by illegal immigrants are often also subsidized by federal water projects which charge the farmers in dry California valleys far less than the cost to the government of providing that water -- and a fraction of what people in Los Angeles or San Francisco pay for the same amount of water.

 

Surplus crops grown with water supplied at the taxpayers' expense and raised by illegal workers can be grown elsewhere with water provided free of charge from the clouds and raised by American workers paid American wages.

 

Naturally, when the real costs of those crops have to be paid by the farmers who raise them, less will be grown -- that is, there will not be as much of a surplus going to waste in government-rented storage bins.

 

With some crops, we don't really "need" any of it. If the United States had not produced a single grain of sugar in the past 50 years, Americans could have gotten all the sugar they wanted and at lower prices, simply by buying it on the world market for half or less of what domestic sugar costs.

 

Sugar has been in chronic surplus on the world market for generations. It can be grown in the tropics far cheaper than it can be grown in the United States. All the land, labor, and capital that has been spent growing sugar here has been one huge waste.

 

We don't "need" to grow sugar, with or without illegal workers.

 

Many people are understandably sympathetic toward Mexican workers who come across the border illegally, not only because of the poverty which drives them from their homelands but also because their willingness to work makes them in demand.

 

When you see beggars on the street, they are usually white or black, but almost never Mexican. But American immigration laws and policies are not about whether you like or don't like Mexicans, though some demagogues try to play the race card.

 

For too long, we have bought the argument that being unfortunate entitles you to break the law. The consequence has been disastrous, whether the people allowed to get away with breaking the law are Americans or foreigners.

 

Legalizing illegal actions is the easy way out, so it is hardly surprising that politicians go for that.

 

One of the ways of legalizing illegal acts is by the automatic conferring of American citizenship on babies born to illegal aliens in the United States.

 

The law that made all people born here American citizens made sense when people crossed an ocean and made a commitment to become Americans.

 

Today, it is just another way of essentially legalizing illegal acts by making it harder to deport those who broke the law.

 

One of the most bogus of all the bogus arguments for a "guest worker" program is that it is impossible to find all the millions of illegal aliens in the country, so it is impossible to deport them.

 

If tomorrow someone came up with some brilliant way to identify every illegal alien in the country, it would not make the slightest difference. Right now, those who are identified as illegal, whether at the border, in prisons, at traffic stops or in any of our institutions, face no penalty whatsoever.

 

Identification is not the problem. Doing nothing is the problem.

[Balta1701]

I just adore how Sowell spends so bloody long talking about how we don't need all these extra crops, the crops are just costing money, we don't need all these workers...and then blames it all on the immigrants, without ever even giving a second thought to really dealing with the people who are lobbying for those federal tax dollars, arranging the water deals, and hiring the illegals...the EMPLOYERS!

 

Saw what I thought was a brilliant idea today. Offer a green card to any undocumented worker who turns in an employer for hiring undocumented workers. You'll end the illegal immigration problem in however long it takes the authorities to drive to the business.

 

Oh, 1 more Sowell bit:

 

Do American citizens go around carrying documents with them when they work or apply for work? Most Americans are undocumented workers but they are not illegal immigrants.

Bull plop. Ever present a driver's license just to prove your ID at a job? I know I have. Repeatedly. Or given a SS number or a Drivers License number on a job application? I know I have.

[Texsox]

Are y'all taking the stance we should stop all immigration? Anyone wish to defend our present policy of allowing any Cuban who reaches the beach to stay? How does that fit into the equation? We are a nation of immigrants. We all owe our citizenship to a relative who immigrated.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Ideally, we'd be able to ship them all out and make them come back legally. 

 

How is that ideal?

[WCSox]

We are a nation of immigrants. We all owe our citizenship to a relative who immigrated.

 

The vast majority of which came here legally. Most of our relatives didn't live in an age of armed street gangs and drug cartels, either.

 

I'm all for immigration, as long as there's a method to control who comes in.

 

How is that ideal?

 

Following our nation's immigration laws certainly is ideal.

Edited March 29, 2006 by WCSox

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Why can't we tax the money these illegals repatriate to Mexico?

 

Seems like it would help defray the costs of the social services they swallow.

 

It would also deprive the Mexican gov't from the second largest source of income in their country.

 

It can be taxed. Sending money to Mexico is not free.

 

And welfare and most social services are not available for illegal immigrants. Not sure how they're "swallowing" it.