Guest Worker

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Following our nation's immigration laws certainly is ideal.

 

That's not what I asked.

[mr_genius]

The best way to control illegal immigration is to impose heavy fines on individuals/companies who use illegal workers.

 

if they can't get a job without the proper paper work, they will realize that sneaking into the country isn't worth it.

[Cknolls]

Are y'all taking the stance we should stop all immigration? Anyone wish to defend our present policy of allowing any Cuban who reaches the beach to stay? How does that fit into the equation? We are a nation of immigrants. We all owe our citizenship to a relative who immigrated.

Relatives who immigrated legally. The immigrants who migrated in the early 20th century came through Ellis Island. They also had to pass an English test.

 

Why can't people stop equating the Mexican immigration flood gate with our ancestors who immigrated. They are entirely different.

[Rex Kickass]

If we told companies that were hiring illegal labor to do their jobs, that if we catch you, we'll fine you so hard that you'll shut down or cripple your business, and if you do it intentionally we'll put your ass in jail - within two years - the illegal immigration issue will solve itself.

[Texsox]

And if no one will take the jobs the company should fold. I don't understand why Americans won't spend 9 months a year following the crops. Living out of their cars, or in rooms that the farms supply. It is an adventure, you get to see the country, and at minimum wage or even a bit more, it's easy money. Piece work is great if you have any sort of work ethic. Or the farms could employ these people year round. Findsome busy work for them while the crops are growing.

 

The poultry processing plants only have problems getting workers because they stopped employing union butchers. Get those union jobs back in there, we'll gladly pay more for the chicken if we know it was cut by a union butcher instead of an illegal. Americans will take these jobs at $25 - $30 per hour instead of $6-$8 per hour. And we'll pay the higher prices at the super market.

 

These 12,000,000 workers only have these jobs because employers think we won't pay more for stuff. Once we eliminate them, wages will rise and that is great for the economy. We won't have to worry about minimum wages, the competition for workers will be so great that even WalMart will have to pay over the poverty level.

 

Of course this also shows how a free economy is a joke. We want all sorts of artificial controls. 12,000,000 people have jobs because the economy needed them. We don't want some free market economy with supply and demand on the labor side, we want controls.

 

Those immigrants who came through Ellis Island took jobs away from Americans. They were willing to work for less, and their English wasn't too good either. Again, it's funny but a free enterprise has retailers and everybody else advertising and conducting business in Spanish so they can make more money. Businesses have a choice, they can work hard to attract new business by speaking Italian, French, Spanish, Korean, Chinese, or whatever neighborhood they are in, or not. Down here not speaking English isn't a problem at all. There will always be a bi-lingual clerk to take their money. BTW, Mexican Nationals spent over $50,000,000 in Hidalgo County on their American Express cards in 2005. LaPlaza Mall is one of the busiest malls in America and it is largly on the backs of Mexican Nationals who come here to shop and play.

 

Supply and demand. Businesses already face steep fines for hiring illegals. They do it out of necessity.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Compared to foreign aid it's actually quite significant, according to the foreign aid numbers from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).  Total U.S. foreign Aid (aid for development, disasters, etc.) was about $19 billion in the last year numbers are fully available at their page (2004).

 

Just doing the math that sounds like $1333, per year, per person.  Its really not that much if you think about it.  In fact I would imagine the number is WAY higher in reality.

 

Yet that is money that they are earning by working. That doesn't seem like it's stealing from America's pockets as it's been portrayed. It certainly isn't just 16 billion being handed over. Because they work, they are a positive factor towards the economy, no matter how people try to spin that. If the concern is that some of those earnings go untaxed, why not the same antipathy towards foreign aid? It certainly does not cause the same uproar. After all, that is 19 billion tax dollars being given away that is not going towards assisting American citizens. I would also hope for the same type of uproar towards careless and needless government spending.

[Balta1701]

And if no one will take the jobs the company should fold. I don't understand why Americans won't spend 9 months a year following the crops. Living out of their cars, or in rooms that the farms supply. It is an adventure, you get to see the country, and at minimum wage or even a bit more, it's easy money. Piece work is great if you have any sort of work ethic. Or the farms could employ these people year round. Findsome busy work for them while the crops are growing.

There is another option beyond this that isn't being talked about. Ok, so there are somewhere between 12 and 20 million jobs available that supposedly "Americans won't take". Ok, fine. So if these jobs need to be filled, why the Hell can't we adapt our immigration laws to allow us to find the people who can fill them?

 

A lot of these people crossing the border pay hundreds, if not thousands to move across the border. Some even die while doing so. What do people think would happen if there was a legal way for those people to move across the border, tell the Americans they're here, and maybe pay money to the U.S. gov't instead of paying someone for trucking people across?

These 12,000,000 workers only have these jobs because employers think we won't pay more for stuff. Once we eliminate them, wages will rise and that is great for the economy. We won't have to worry about minimum wages, the competition for workers will be so great that even WalMart will have to pay over the poverty level.

Incorrect. These 12,000,000 workers have these jobs because if they can pay their workers less, they can sell their goods at a lower cost/higher profit than their competitors, both of which drive up the profits for the business. It's not a matter of them thinking we won't pay more for stuff...it's more simple economics; lower cost = higher sales.

[Cknolls]

If we told companies that were hiring illegal labor to do their jobs, that if we catch you, we'll fine you so hard that you'll shut down or cripple your business, and if you do it intentionally we'll put your ass in jail - within two years - the illegal immigration issue will solve itself.

agreed

[Balta1701]

If we told companies that were hiring illegal labor to do their jobs, that if we catch you, we'll fine you so hard that you'll shut down or cripple your business, and if you do it intentionally we'll put your ass in jail - within two years - the illegal immigration issue will solve itself.

The LA Times spent a good deal of space this morning discussing why this isn't happening. A few samples:

 

A New Jersey labor broker and a security guard firm in California are among thousands of businesses that have filed Social Security tax payments for a large number of workers that do not match any known taxpayer. That, the Social Security agency says, is a sign that the workers are most likely illegal. In 2001, payments for 96% of the New Jersey company's workers did not correspond to any taxpayer on file.

...

 

The number of federal workers who focus on finding illegal immigrants on the job has dropped in recent years, from 240 in 1999 to 90 in 2003.

 

And less than 1% of the money devoted to immigration enforcement is directed to crackdowns at the workplace, with the overwhelming majority spent at the nation's borders. Last year, 127 employers were convicted for hiring undocumented workers — a small fraction of the thousands of businesses thought to be using illegal labor.

 

The one Homeland Security program for checking worker eligibility is voluntary, is subscribed to by a small number of the country's employers and is off-limits to the agency conducting workplace enforcement.

 

Knowingly hiring undocumented immigrants became illegal in the U.S. in 1986. Congress required companies to have workers fill out an I-9 form — stating that the workers were U.S. citizens, permanent residents or authorized to work — and to check identification.

 

But it allowed workers to offer any of 29 documents, including report cards for those younger than 18, as proof of their identity and work eligibility. It did nothing to help employers sift forged papers from genuine ones, a task that has become more difficult as forgeries have become more sophisticated. The Government Accountability Office has said that employers can easily hire illegal workers by filling out the I-9 and accepting false documents, knowingly or not.

...

 

The number of notices of intent to fine issued to companies that knowingly hired an illegal worker or improperly filled out an I-9 form plummeted from 417 in 1999 to three in 2004.

There is more in the article, including details about how programs have been established that would allow employers to check much more easily, but those programs haven't been funded at all.

[Texsox]

Incorrect.  These 12,000,000 workers have these jobs because if they can pay their workers less, they can sell their goods at a lower cost/higher profit than their competitors, both of which drive up the profits for the business.  It's not a matter of them thinking we won't pay more for stuff...it's more simple economics; lower cost = higher sales.

 

Incorrect, there there millions of jobs that cannot be filed, at almost any price. Car washes, restaurants, and especially agriculture are industries that are shut down without immigrant labor. Of the businesses I know that are employing illegals, all are paying over the minimum wage. There are also a lot of legal Americans working for unreported cash, so the tax invasion thing is broader than just illegals. Plus, by giving people more to spend, it helps the economy. If those business owners had to pay taxes on those wages, the economy would stall

 

Imagine the life of a farm worker. Travelling from town to town, living in sub standard housing, toiling in fields all day because the crop is perishable. Not many Americans willing to do that work. We currently import way to much of out food. Look at the produce section at Jewel or Dominicks tonight. Do you think all that fresh produce was produced in Florida, Texas, and California? Most are products of foreign origin. People will buy the cheaper stuff everytime, and that is always overseas crops this time of year.

 

We need these laborers, the government can't have a passive attitude any more, the public is demanding reforms. For decades, we have just looked the other way and allowed these workers. Now we have to formalize the process.

[Soxy]

Relatives who immigrated legally. The immigrants who migrated in the early 20th century came through Ellis Island. They also had to pass an English test.

 

Why can't people stop equating the Mexican immigration flood gate with our ancestors who immigrated. They are entirely different.

Except for the huge influx of Japanese and Chinese that came through the West Coast.

 

And immigrants that could afford first class boat accomodation didn't have to go through Ellis Island (they got a very simple pass on the ships). So really, that's the same. It's the poorest of the poor that get the shaft in immigration.

 

And I've never heard about a mandatory English test, may I ask your source?

 

And I bet the Irish raised the same ire when they were coming over in droves during the Famine, even though they spoke English. Or at least my grandmother's and great grand-father's stories tend to point to that. . .

[mr_genius]

Incorrect, there there millions of jobs that cannot be filed, at almost any price. Car washes, restaurants, and especially agriculture are industries that are shut down without immigrant labor.

 

I disagree

 

You might have to pay more for the workers, but there are enough people to work these jobs. You know what, I don't care if they have to pay more. Currently we, the tax payers, are paying for these peoples illegal employees health care, schooling, ect. If you can't legally make a living in a business you need to change careers. Over an illegal immigrants life time they each cost around $100,000 more than they contribute.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Over an illegal immigrants life time they each cost around $100,000 more than they contribute.

 

Source?

[mr_genius]

here's some numbers here. doesn't have the "lifetime" cost of 100,000...but does have some good numbers to look at.

 

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html

 

it puts a rate of $ -7,000 as the average each illegal immigrant household contributes to the united states per year.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

here's some numbers here.  doesn't have the "lifetime" cost of 100,000...but does have some good numbers to look at.

 

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html

 

it puts a rate of $ -7,000 as the average each illegal immigrant household contributes to the united states per year.

 

Looks reliable.

[Texsox]

I disagree

 

You might have to pay more for the workers, but there are enough people to work these jobs.  You know what, I don't care if they have to pay more.  Currently we, the tax payers, are paying for these peoples illegal employees health care, schooling, ect.  If you can't legally make a living in a business you need to change careers. Over an illegal immigrants life time they each cost around $100,000 more than they contribute.

 

Sorry, I guess you are missing my point. We need the people working those jobs. Making them legal and paying them more is fine with me. But if you think there are American born and educated individuals getting shut out of the manual labor market, I disagree. There are not 12 million able bodied citizens clammering for these jobs.

 

And wages for illegals are not $2 an hour or something like that. Most companies are paying over the minimum wage now, and accepting fake documentation. I believe there was a post above that mentioned this. Many times it is not about the wages, it's about our education system being advanced anough that almost any individual can get something better than manual labor jobs.

 

Remember, the illegals also need to pay rent, buy food, clothing, gas for their cars.

[Rex Kickass]

All that report really says is that low income people use more services and since a lot of undocumented workers are low income, that they have to use the services.

 

I wonder if this study accounts for the higher average pay that undocumented workers would get if they had legitimate papers to stay in the U.S. My guess is that it would be much higher.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Chicago states that it won't enforce any immigration law that criminalizes undocumented workers.

 

Sun Times link

 

If the great immigration debate now raging in Congress is decided in a way that turns illegal immigrants into criminals, Chicago Police officers and other city employees would not enforce it, the City Council decided Wednesday. . .

[Texsox]

All that report really says is that low income people use more services and since a lot of undocumented workers are low income, that they have to use the services.

 

I wonder if this study accounts for the higher average pay that undocumented workers would get if they had legitimate papers to stay in the U.S. My guess is that it would be much higher.

 

Excellent point.

[EvilMonkey]

Not many Americans willing to do that work.

 

Maybe a reason that line is sometimes true is because the Americans who could DO that work are getting money from the government for NOT doing that work. Much better to collect welfare, unemployment, food stamps, whatever, than to work those jobs. If the illegal problem were to be severly curtailed, yes, some prices would go up. But so would the money they would have to pay laborers. Start cutting some aid for able-bodied folk who CAn work, and they may just do that. if a family of 8 illegals can make a living doing that work, while still sending money to Mexico, why can't a poor white or black family do it? maybe because that would mean giving up the cable tv and the cell phones. (sigh) I'm all for busting the ass of any employer that knowingly hires illegals. I am for building a huge ass wall and defending that wall on both our southern and northern borders. Without borders, we cease to be a nation. I am for a guest worker program of some sort, but have no specifics in mind. I am for denying birthright citizenship, and for making English the official language of the government, so that all transaction have to be done in english. And, i also believe that I am ready for the baseball season to begin already!

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Do you have a source as to the second largest source of income to the Mexican gov't?

 

BTW, there is a large number of Americans living in Mexico. They found their Social Security checks go a lot farther in Mexico. Thre are several towns that are almost 100% American.

 

 

 

 

Ive heard tat number used in the mainstream press quite a lot so its not something that was just pulled out of the air.

[mr_genius]

We need the people working those jobs.

 

 

i agree

 

but i'm not buying the "if we don't have illegal immigrants no one will do those jobs!" argument.

[WCSox]

i agree

 

but i'm not buying the "if we don't have illegal immigrants no one will do those jobs!" argument.

 

Considering that I flipped burgers and mowed lawns in high school and that many of my friends in college de-tassled corn in the summer, I agree that it's a crap argument.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Considering that I flipped burgers and mowed lawns in high school and that many of my friends in college de-tassled corn in the summer, I agree that it's a crap argument.

 

We all did menial summer jobs summer jobs growing up. It doesn't mean we could have followed the farm work for 9 months out of the year, so that is obviously not the pool of American workers that would replace that labor force.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

i agree

 

but i'm not buying the "if we don't have illegal immigrants no one will do those jobs!" argument.

 

I also don't buy that mcdonalds would suddenly pay 15 bucks an hour if there were no immigrants...