American flag banned at public school

[mr_genius]

Where exactly is my defense of the image disrespecting the flag that YAS posted? 

 

 

oh, i'm sorry flasoxdjim... i thought your post of "illegal since 1492" was backing up the picture. it sure seemed like it was.

 

and as far as that goes, wonder why they are so proud to speak an illegitimate/foreign European language (Spanish)?

 

oh, and i'm sure the Europeans were the first to ever invade any land on this continent. no way the natives of southern regions took northern regions way back in the day.

Edited April 6, 2006 by mr_genius

[FlaSoxxJim]

oh, i'm sorry flasoxdjim... i thought your post of "illegal since 1492" was backing up the picture.  it sure seemed like it was.

 

and as far as that goes, wonder why they are so proud to speak an illegitimate/foreign European language (Spanish)? 

 

oh, and i'm sure the Europeans were the first to ever invade any land on this continent.  no way the natives of southern regions took northern regions way back in the day.

 

Like I said, I think the "Illegal since 1492" picture is thought provoking without being disrespectful of the US flag like the image YAS posted was.

[NorthSideSox72]

The poster specifies the North American continent, not the United States.  Modern Mexicans are descended from indiginous North American lines, albeit with 500 years of outcrossing with invading Europeans.

 

The point of that protest poster is that there were inhabitants of North America prior to 1492.  Not that it mattered much to the Europeans who came, saw, and conquered.

Regarding "Modern Mexicans", your post isn't really accurate. The various "Modern Mexicans" all have some mix of spanish and AmerIn blood, and the mix varies widely. In fact, in the early days of Mexico and then the US in what is now the southwest, there were many layers of social classes within Hispanic culture, mostly based on the extent (or claimed extent) of Spanish blood. Read "Enchantment and Exploitation" for a great enthography.

 

The point is, it should be noted that all those classes were considered well above any AmerIn groups. The Spaniards, then the Mexicans, then the US, systematically destroyed those cultures - in that order of magnitude. Racism in the US is, and always has been, a perspective of time and position on the totem pole. Mexico holds as much, or more, responsibility for the decimation of the AmerIn peoples as the US.

[NorthSideSox72]

Not to sound like the hippie here but... can't we focus on the real problem? The flag isn't the issue. The flag is a symbol, and a powerful one, but it is still just that. But the emotional issues present here - hatred, racism, false entitlement, fear of the unknown, poverty, poor parenting and teaching, and ineffective governments are the real problems at work here. And they are at work on both sides of the issue.

 

That all said, I cannot see any valid argument for how illegal immigrants should be allowed any sort of services or legal recognition here, any more so than a tourist might receive. But I believe equally that anyone who hides behind a flag of "patriotism", whether its a US flag like those morons kids at the school or the Mexican flag like that awful woman in the picture above, is a coward. And I find them anything but patriotic.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Regarding "Modern Mexicans", your post isn't really accurate.  The various "Modern Mexicans" all have some mix of spanish and AmerIn blood, and the mix varies widely.  In fact, in the early days of Mexico and then the US in what is now the southwest, there were many layers of social classes within Hispanic culture, mostly based on the extent (or claimed extent) of Spanish blood.  Read "Enchantment and Exploitation" for a great enthography.

 

The point is, it should be noted that all those classes were considered well above any AmerIn groups.  The Spaniards, then the Mexicans, then the US, systematically destroyed those cultures - in that order of magnitude.  Racism in the US is, and always has been, a perspective of time and position on the totem pole.  Mexico holds as much, or more, responsibility for the decimation of the AmerIn peoples as the US.

 

I agree, certainly there was a social pecking order, and certainly the indiginous North Americans were at the very bottom of it. The point was, and you concurred, Modern Mexicans have legitimate claim to indiginous American Indian bloodlines. Most of us do not.

[mr_genius]

Modern Mexicans have legitimate claim to indiginous American Indian bloodlines.  Most of us do not.

 

 

Sounds like something the Germans were saying about their right to conrol other countries in the late 1930's.

 

 

sorry to bring something like that up, it just sounds like such a bad argument point to me.

Edited April 6, 2006 by mr_genius

[FlaSoxxJim]

Sounds like something the Germans were saying about their country in the late 1930's.

 

Yeah, it sounds exactly like that. :rolly

[mr_genius]

Yeah, it sounds exactly like that.  :rolly

 

 

no offense, but your arguments are starting to deteriorate.

[FlaSoxxJim]

no offense, but your arguments are starting to deteriorate.

I'm not sure what "arguments" you are referring to. The fact that Mexicans have Native North American ancestry? OK then, you win, they don't.

 

I bow to your superior arguing skills. Dude.

[WCSox]

My beef with the "mexican flag" being flown is in most cases it wasn't about "heritage"... it was about sticking it up our rear end and "to take back what is theirs".  Screw that.

 

Furthermore, it cracks me up that they are all over flying their Mexican flags - if they like it so much, GO HOME.  STAY THERE until you can come back LEGALLY.

 

Then, and only then, do I welcome you to the "land of opportunity".

 

[mr_genius]

I bow to your superior arguing skills.  Dude.

 

 

 

word

 

oh, and try being more creative next time, senior

[Texsox]

Once again we seem to have lost sight on an important fact, illegals are working jobs that we need done. There are not 12,000,000 out of work, able bodied individuals, willing and able to work these jobs. There are not employers making busy work for people. Most companies have no fat in their operations, that was all so 60s.

 

If we send them packing, who wins? Very few, and we all lose.

 

Bush has the right idea, a guest worker program. The details have to be worked out, but we can't let the rhetoric and overt and covert racism, cause us to cripple our service sector.

 

One of the great things about the US is we have the most peaceful borders in the world. We have vast land borders with few problems. Contrast that to many places in the world, and it is plain to see we have not had to invest much to keep peace with our neighbors.

[WilliamTell]

The poster specifies the North American continent, not the United States.  Modern Mexicans are descended from indiginous North American lines, albeit with 500 years of outcrossing with invading Europeans.

 

The point of that protest poster is that there were inhabitants of North America prior to 1492.  Not that it mattered much to the Europeans who came, saw, and conquered.

 

When you think about it, if I remember right, didn't the Native Americans migrate from Asia. So technically everyone is an immigrant if you feel like going back that far. I prefere not to and I prefere not to consider 1492 immigration either.

[WilliamTell]

Once again we seem to have lost sight on an important fact, illegals are working jobs that we need done. There are not 12,000,000 out of work, able bodied individuals, willing and able to work these jobs. There are not employers making busy work for people. Most companies have no fat in their operations, that was all so 60s.

 

If we send them packing, who wins? Very few, and we all lose.

 

Bush has the right idea, a guest worker program. The details have to be worked out, but we can't let the rhetoric and overt and covert racism, cause us to cripple our service sector.

 

One of the great things about the US is we have the most peaceful borders in the world. We have vast land borders with few problems. Contrast that to many places in the world, and it is plain to see we have not had to invest much to keep peace with our neighbors.

 

I heard something on the radio. Would people pick lettuce for $5 an hour, the answer is probably no, $50 an hour, most people might say yes. Obviously this isn't very logical, but it's kind of a circular problem the USA has. If people got paid more, you'd have more people doing these kinds of jobs. But they don't, so income the immigrants trying to get a better life for themselves and van load of family. It's a circular problem that we have. I don't mind them coming here, but they need to go by our rules, become a U.S. citizen, learn English, that's all I ask.

[FlaSoxxJim]

When you think about it, if I remember right, didn't the Native Americans migrate from Asia. So technically everyone is an immigrant if you feel like going back that far. I prefere not to and I prefere not to consider 1492 immigration either.

 

Every individual who leaves one population center for another IS an immigrant. By definition. And that is nit confined to the human population. But the first humans to migrate into an area populated by no other humans do not displace anybody.

 

"Everybody" is NOT an immigrant. I am the great-grandson of immigrants, but I am not an immigrant. What boat did you come over on or what border did you cross to get here?

 

Explorers in 1492 who did not stay are not immigrants. Any that did stay thereafter were immigrants at best, and in many cases conquerers.

 

So what do you prefer to call people from several centuries ago who MIGRATED INTO a new area in not immigrants?

Edited April 6, 2006 by FlaSoxxJim

[WilliamTell]

Doesn't immigration come from the word migrate, anyways I said I don't consider either one immigration for the same reasons as you do. Settle down there bud.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Doesn't immigration come from the word migrate, anyways I said I don't consider either one immigration for the same reasons as you do. Settle down there bud.

 

As settled as settled can be.

 

The statement that "everyone is an immigrant" is simply incorrect. Those who actually did the inward migrating are immigrants, but that is not everyone. As a 4th generation American I can't see how I qualify as an immigrant. Perhaps you'll enlighten me.

[NorthSideSox72]

When you think about it, if I remember right, didn't the Native Americans migrate from Asia. So technically everyone is an immigrant if you feel like going back that far. I prefere not to and I prefere not to consider 1492 immigration either.

That WAS the prevailing theory, until recently. Findings such as Sandia Man, and some other more recent evidence, debunk it. The majority of people in that field of study that I have read in recent years are now of the opinion that the only people who came over the Bering land bridge during the Wisconsonian glaciation (roughly 12-15k years ago) are the Eskimo and Aleut groups. The rest of the AmerIn groups came from somewhere else, and/or some other time period.

 

Tangential, but wanted to clarify.

[NorthSideSox72]

Once again we seem to have lost sight on an important fact, illegals are working jobs that we need done. There are not 12,000,000 out of work, able bodied individuals, willing and able to work these jobs. There are not employers making busy work for people. Most companies have no fat in their operations, that was all so 60s.

 

If we send them packing, who wins? Very few, and we all lose.

 

Bush has the right idea, a guest worker program. The details have to be worked out, but we can't let the rhetoric and overt and covert racism, cause us to cripple our service sector.

 

One of the great things about the US is we have the most peaceful borders in the world. We have vast land borders with few problems. Contrast that to many places in the world, and it is plain to see we have not had to invest much to keep peace with our neighbors.

I haven't lost sight of this fact. And I agree on the migrant worker program. And I think we need to change the Visa restrictions to be, in most cases, more lenient. But that is still no excuse, now or later, to evade the laws of this land.

[Texsox]

I haven't lost sight of this fact.  And I agree on the migrant worker program.  And I think we need to change the Visa restrictions to be, in most cases, more lenient.  But that is still no excuse, now or later, to evade the laws of this land.

 

We evade laws all the time. People here argued that Texas should not enforce the drunk in public laws. Drive down 94 and see how many are holding to the speed limit. I imagine of you were freezing to death you would break into a home to get warm. Starving and you would steal food. So there are excuses for breaking the law, some valid, some not.

 

Is it valid for a farmer to hire illegals when no one else would pick his crops? Is it wrong for a dairy farmer to hire an illegal to clean the feed yards when no one else will? Somehow our economy found jobs for 12,000,000 people. For the most part, and there are some exceptions, these people lead quiet lives, not wanting to get arrested for anything and being deported. They are far more likely to be a victim of a crime, and never report it, than to commit one.

 

If not for the political battle that the parties have hoped for, this would not be an issue. Like Presidents before him, Bush would have quietly allowed the practice together. The great GOP President, someone that Republicans call the greatest ever, Reagan knew that these workers were necessary. What we have today are politicians and pundits fanning the flames of racism with cries of terrorism and widespread American (re white) unemployment. Watch out fot the boogey man, he's sneaking across the border tonight to steal your jobs and commit untold acts of terror.

[southsider2k5]

If not for the political battle that the parties have hoped for, this would not be an issue. Like Presidents before him, Bush would have quietly allowed the practice together. The great GOP President, someone that Republicans call the greatest ever, Reagan knew that these workers were necessary. What we have today are politicians and pundits fanning the flames of racism with cries of terrorism and widespread American (re white) unemployment. Watch out fot the boogey man, he's sneaking across the border tonight to steal your jobs and commit untold acts of terror.

 

There is actually a fairly sizable movement out of the black community too. By and large because of lower general education levels it is black workers who have the most to lose with illegal immigration. And its not just white people fanning the flames of racism, some of them are mayors of formerly black cities who are on record as wanting to keep Mexicans out of his "chocolate" city. He was applauded for it, and never really met with any outrage both in the media and the public at large. But thanks for the racial generalizations, which do no more to help in this debate than Mexician students intentionally defaming the American flag...

 

Pitts: At a recent and often contentious town hall meeting with small business owners, New Orleans major Ray Nagin was applauded when he asked this question.

 

Nagin: How do I make sure that New Orleans is not overrun by Mexican workers? (Applause )

 

Pitts:: This migration started when the president suspended government labor laws after Hurricane Katrina, so a few major contractors like Halliburton received no-bid contracts. From there, the math gets simple: The cheaper the labor, the greater the profit.

 

Unnamed Male: They're paying them five dollars for jobs they're charging FEMA 20 dollars and 20- something dollars. Is that fair? You might as well get local people, who you can give a living wage to, who can help rebuild this community.

 

Pitts: All agree rebuilding this historic city will be a slow process.

 

Unnamed Male: We're right here, world! You can't kill this spirit, Katrina!

 

Pitts: The worry here: Will it look like the old New Orleans when it's over? Byron Pitts, CBS News, New Orleans.

 

http://newsbusters.org/node/2147

[Texsox]

There is actually a fairly sizable movement out of the black community too.  By and large because of lower general education levels it is black workers who have the most to lose with illegal immigration.  And its not just white people fanning the flames of racism, some of them are mayors of formerly black cities who are on record as wanting to keep Mexicans out of his "chocolate" city.  He was applauded for it, and never really met with any outrage both in the media and the public at large.  But thanks for the racial generalizations, which do no more to help in this debate than Mexician students intentionally defaming the American flag...

http://newsbusters.org/node/2147

 

Exactly right. I should have broken that sentance in two. Politicians and pundits (of all colors and religions) are fanning the flames, and many are using (white) unemployment as a device. It's a white US for the most part and that gets action faster. They are linking terrorism with illegal workers, which is such a thin link.

 

It seems impossible for anyone is this to not see it as a racial thing. Mexicans vs. Americans, etc. The undercurrent I feel is that Latinos of all countries are exploding in population and becoming more political. Businesses are working overtime to sell to this market and advertising in Spanish, which makes people who do not speak Spanish uncomfortable. We are already the worst world power in terms of being mono-lingual, yet we want to further retreat. It isn't some obscure government document being in 12 languages that most people fear, it's walking into The Gap and hearing the clerk sell a pair of jeans in Spanish. It's being at lunch and the conversations around you are in Spanish. That's what people fear.

[Balta1701]

Exactly right. I should have broken that sentance in two. Politicians and pundits (of all colors and religions) are fanning the flames, and many are using (white) unemployment as a device. It's a white US for the most part and that gets action faster. They are linking terrorism with illegal workers, which is such a thin link.

 

It seems impossible for anyone is this to not see it as a racial thing. Mexicans vs. Americans, etc. The undercurrent I feel is that Latinos of all countries are exploding in population and becoming more political. Businesses are working overtime to sell to this market and advertising in Spanish, which makes people who do not speak Spanish uncomfortable. We are already the worst world power in terms of being mono-lingual, yet we want to further retreat. It isn't some obscure government document being in 12 languages that most people fear, it's walking into The Gap and hearing the clerk sell a pair of jeans in Spanish. It's being at lunch and the conversations around you are in Spanish. That's what people fear.

No offense...but I for one think it's only a thin link until some terrorist is smart enough to notice that they can pay a few thousand bucks to get across the border without the government noticing. What to do about the immigrants who are already here is a separate question from this; if over 90% of the people who try to cross the border without documents succeed...and you can probably assume that the numbers are higher for the people with lots of cash...that's almost as large of a hole as the lack of security at U.S. ports.

[YASNY]

Exactly right. I should have broken that sentance in two. Politicians and pundits (of all colors and religions) are fanning the flames, and many are using (white) unemployment as a device. It's a white US for the most part and that gets action faster. They are linking terrorism with illegal workers, which is such a thin link.

 

It seems impossible for anyone is this to not see it as a racial thing. Mexicans vs. Americans, etc. The undercurrent I feel is that Latinos of all countries are exploding in population and becoming more political. Businesses are working overtime to sell to this market and advertising in Spanish, which makes people who do not speak Spanish uncomfortable. We are already the worst world power in terms of being mono-lingual, yet we want to further retreat. It isn't some obscure government document being in 12 languages that most people fear, it's walking into The Gap and hearing the clerk sell a pair of jeans in Spanish. It's being at lunch and the conversations around you are in Spanish. That's what people fear.

 

Now from my personal perspective, this is bull. I do not have anything against Latino people. In fact, I respect the hell out of them because they are such hard workers. I'm against illegal immigration for one reason and one reason only. It's illegal.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

My beef with the "mexican flag" being flown is in most cases it wasn't about "heritage"... it was about sticking it up our rear end and "to take back what is theirs".  Screw that.

 

No, you're completely wrong. In a vast majority of cases, it is about heritage. But there will always be a few idiots who do stupid things, such as the pictures shown with the American flag upside down. I certainly don't agree with that. But, sadly, even American citizens find ways to do stupid things with our own flag...

 

 

There are idiots in every population, no matter the culture. But it's only a tiny percentage, just like both cases...If such an isolated case is deserving of making newspaper front pages, let's see more Americans who burn the American flag and white supremacists waving American and Confederate flags too...

 

Furthermore, it cracks me up that they are all over flying their Mexican flags - if they like it so much, GO HOME.  STAY THERE until you can come back LEGALLY.

 

Then, and only then, do I welcome you to the "land of opportunity".

 

Now that's just being ignorant. People of many heritages fly their flags here in the U.S., especially during celebrations. It's just symbolizing their pride for their heritage.

 

I don't think the Polish people who celebrate their Polish Constitution Day here in Chicago should be sent back to Poland, nor everyone who waves an Irish flag during S. Patrick's Day...