American flag banned at public school

[NorthSideSox72]

We evade laws all the time. People here argued that Texas should not enforce the drunk in public laws. Drive down 94 and see how many are holding to the speed limit. I imagine of you were freezing to death you would break into a home to get warm. Starving and you would steal food.  So there are excuses for breaking the law, some valid, some not.

 

I hope you are not saying that a person entering a country illegally, using their services and allowing employers to discard employment laws, is in the same ballpark as having 4 beers instead of two in a bar, or going 5 mph over the speed limit.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I hope you are not saying that a person entering a country illegally, using their services and allowing employers to discard employment laws, is in the same ballpark as having 4 beers instead of two in a bar, or going 5 mph over the speed limit.

 

You're exactly right. A drunk driver can be much, much more harmful than someone who's just here to work and keep to themselves.

[NorthSideSox72]

You're exactly right.  A drunk driver can be much, much more harmful than someone who's just here to work and keep to themselves.

Stop it.

 

If you've read my posts on this board enough, you'd be well aware of my stance on drunk driving. My statement had zero to do with that. I refuse to go down that particular road in this thread any further than that.

 

Do you have any valid argument to present against the examples and points I actually posted?

[Texsox]

Now from my personal perspective, this is bull.  I do not have anything against Latino people.  In fact, I respect the hell out of them because they are such hard workers.  I'm against illegal immigration for one reason and one reason only.  It's illegal.

 

Then why such an outcry that anyone speak English? Why would it be necessary to speak at all? And Bush wants to change things so they aren't ilegal, and then we will both be happy.

 

It has been illegal forever and every decade of two we dream up a program to document these workers. The economy needs it, there are no extra cogs.

 

I hope you are not saying that a person entering a country illegally, using their services and allowing employers to discard employment laws, is in the same ballpark as having 4 beers instead of two in a bar, or going 5 mph over the speed limit.

 

I am saying there are reasons to break a law. Some valid, some invalid. I business owner who is faced with closing his doors, or a farmer who can't get his crops picked, may have a valid reason to hire someone without documentation. A business who is just trying to exploit people, may not be on the same moral or ethical grounds. I am certain there are examples of both out there.

 

Getting back to the terrorist angle. I'm not certain where the 90% mark comes in, but any terrorist that has invested money in their plot is not going to risk death in a desert march when they can arrive as tourists, or recruit someone already here.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Stop it.

 

If you've read my posts on this board enough, you'd be well aware of my stance on drunk driving.  My statement had zero to do with that.  I refuse to go down that particular road in this thread any further than that.

 

Do you have any valid argument to present against the examples and points I actually posted?

 

I absolutely luv the stance that illegal immigration is wrong because it is illegal, yet other illegal activities are a-ok. :rolly

[NorthSideSox72]

I absolutely luv the stance that illegal immigration is wrong because it is illegal, yet other illegal activities are a-ok.    :rolly

I think its wrong because its illegal, and I think its illegal because it SHOULD be. No one should be allowed to walk into this country undocumented, unchecked, use up resources, fail to pay taxes, present unknown risks and do what they please. If they want in, get a Visa. I'm all for more visas and a migrant worker program. But at least then, we deal with ALL of those risks I mentioned above. And further, we reduce the risk to the immigrants as well, by making sure they have some protections under the law.

 

So its not just that its illegal - its illegal for good reason.

[Balta1701]

I think its wrong because its illegal, and I think its illegal because it SHOULD be.  No one should be allowed to walk into this country undocumented, unchecked, use up resources, fail to pay taxes, present unknown risks and do what they please.  If they want in, get a Visa.  I'm all for more visas and a migrant worker program.  But at least then, we deal with ALL of those risks I mentioned above.  And further, we reduce the risk to the immigrants as well, by making sure they have some protections under the law.

 

So its not just that its illegal - its illegal for good reason.

But it's also illegal for a very bad reason. If we believe the statements by many in this discussion...there is clearly a need for many of these 10 million or so workers. This means that there are people outside this country willing to fill jobs inside this country, but who we will not allow to immigrate legally because our immigration system is so far out of date.

 

I think it is a safe guess that if you gave these folks the options of immigrating legally vs. illegally, almost all of them would choose the legal option. So there is a demand for these workers, there is a supply of these workers, but the system has not adapted to allow the demand to fill the supply. This leaves illegal immigration as 1 option for demand and supply to come back to equilibrium, but the only problem is that it's the most taxing one on all of those other services.

 

Getting back to the terrorist angle. I'm not certain where the 90% mark comes in, but any terrorist that has invested money in their plot is not going to risk death in a desert march when they can arrive as tourists, or recruit someone already here.

That's a number I believe I heard sometime in the last week or so, I don't have a source for it, but I think it's in the ballpark.

 

But my counterpoint to you is this: when you have money, there are people who will drive you across the border to places where you can follow other safe paths in. If 10,000,000 people have crossed that border, it's probably more of a risk that you'll be caught at the U.S. Customs desk coming in as a tourist than you will if you sneak in that way. And if you come through an airport, the U.S. would know you were here; sneak across the border and the U.S. wouldn't.

[Texsox]

I think its wrong because its illegal, and I think its illegal because it SHOULD be.  No one should be allowed to walk into this country undocumented, unchecked, use up resources, fail to pay taxes, present unknown risks and do what they please.  If they want in, get a Visa.  I'm all for more visas and a migrant worker program.  But at least then, we deal with ALL of those risks I mentioned above.  And further, we reduce the risk to the immigrants as well, by making sure they have some protections under the law.

 

So its not just that its illegal - its illegal for good reason.

 

I assume you are exempting the millions of tourists that come to this country, expecting police protection, use our roads, fail to pay taxes, present unknown risks, and do what they please. Or the students that fill our Universities. Or the visiting scientists who join our think tanks and work with our scientists.

 

And the guest worker program will hopefully offer the visas etc.

 

We knew about every terrorist who has committed an act of terror on our shores. Knowing and stopping is two different things. I still believe a trained terrorist would walk in with documentation so that a simple speeding ticket wouldn't ruin their plans.

[NorthSideSox72]

I assume you are exempting the millions of tourists that come to this country, expecting police protection, use our roads, fail to pay taxes, present unknown risks, and do what they please. Or the students that fill our Universities. Or the visiting scientists who join our think tanks and work with our scientists.

 

And the guest worker program will hopefully offer the visas etc.

 

We knew about every terrorist who has committed an act of terror on our shores. Knowing and stopping is two different things. I still believe a trained terrorist would walk in with documentation so that a simple speeding ticket wouldn't ruin their plans.

If you will refer to my earlier posts, you will see I made the exact point of tourist-level protections. But they come here legally, we have documentation and control to some extent.

[NorthSideSox72]

But it's also illegal for a very bad reason.  If we believe the statements by many in this discussion...there is clearly a need for many of these 10 million or so workers.  This means that there are people outside this country willing to fill jobs inside this country, but who we will not allow to immigrate legally because our immigration system is so far out of date.

 

I think it is a safe guess that if you gave these folks the options of immigrating legally vs. illegally, almost all of them would choose the legal option.  So there is a demand for these workers, there is a supply of these workers, but the system has not adapted to allow the demand to fill the supply.  This leaves illegal immigration as 1 option for demand and supply to come back to equilibrium, but the only problem is that it's the most taxing one on all of those other services.

 

And I agree, as I said, that we need to re-vamp the current system.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I think its wrong because its illegal, and I think its illegal because it SHOULD be.  No one should be allowed to walk into this country undocumented, unchecked, use up resources, fail to pay taxes, present unknown risks and do what they please.  If they want in, get a Visa.  I'm all for more visas and a migrant worker program.  But at least then, we deal with ALL of those risks I mentioned above.  And further, we reduce the risk to the immigrants as well, by making sure they have some protections under the law.

 

So its not just that its illegal - its illegal for good reason.

 

Driving drunk is illegal because it SHOULD be. Speeding is illegal because it SHOULD be.

 

Again, if your stance is that it is wrong because it is illegal, RESPECT EVERY LAW.

 

But you're probably thinking that speeding a few miles over per hour is ok because it probably won't hurt anyone, or just barely being legally drunk is ok because you're still capable of driving home just fine...Soo much easier to bend the rules once they apply to you...

 

My stance is similar to that. Illegal immigrants do break a law initially to get in, but most are not criminals. Why not keep the good, hard-working ones here instead of wanting to kick them all out? I don't agree with the illegal act, but I sympathize with the reasons behind it and feel they should not be dehumanized.

[WilliamTell]

I think it is a safe guess that if you gave these folks the options of immigrating legally vs. illegally, almost all of them would choose the legal option.  So there is a demand for these workers, there is a supply of these workers, but the system has not adapted to allow the demand to fill the supply.  This leaves illegal immigration as 1 option for demand and supply to come back to equilibrium, but the only problem is that it's the most taxing one on all of those other services.

 

I agree with you that probably almost all of them would rather choose the legal option. I'm guessing they're not too hurt in not paying taxes though. Clear up in Iowa I've spoken to a couple of illegal ones that are becoming legal and I'm proud of them, they're nice people. They're learning English and they're contributing to the economy. But I've also seen some very distgruntled immigrants who treat everyone around them bad. I suppose it's just like any other place where you have good people, immigrants or not, and bad people. It was just kinda weird because some guy was yelling at me in Spanish for no apparent reason.

[NorthSideSox72]

Driving drunk is illegal because it SHOULD be.  Speeding is illegal because it SHOULD be. 

 

Again, if your stance is that it is wrong because it is illegal, RESPECT EVERY LAW.

 

But you're probably thinking that speeding a few miles over per hour is ok because it probably won't hurt anyone, or just barely being legally drunk is ok because you're still capable of driving home just fine...Soo much easier to bend the rules once they apply to you...

 

My stance is similar to that.  Illegal immigrants do break a law initially to get in, but most are not criminals.  Why not keep the good, hard-working ones here instead of wanting to kick them all out?  I don't agree with the illegal act, but I sympathize with the reasons behind it and feel they should not be dehumanized.

You keep harping on drunk driving, as if I ever said that was remotely OK. Where are you getting that?

 

Your comparison of speeding 5 mph ocer the limit to illegal entry into another country and all the risk and resource draining associated therewith, is ridiculous.

[Texsox]

Laws come and go, and reflect the needs of society. Some are classics and will always be around, like murder. Society has a need to keep people from killing each other. Others become outdated when society values change, like interracial marriage. We are probably at a time when the laws need to be updated and rewritten. The analogy becomes relevant when society describes this immigration as nothing more than a speeding ticket, or something far more serious.

 

I hope no one here ever took a tax deduction they weren't entitled to, because avoiding paying taxes is such a threat to our security.

[WilliamTell]

Let's make Mexico the 51st state.

[Texsox]

Let's make Mexico the 51st state.

 

It's cheaper to keep them as a buffer to South America.

[mr_genius]

Is it valid for a farmer to hire illegals when no one else would pick his crops?

 

no, it is illegal and he/she should be fined. it's a huge drain on our government. we can't afford to school all the illegals kids, we can't afford to pay all their hospital bills.

 

pay more, mechanize or find a new job.

Edited April 6, 2006 by mr_genius

[mr_genius]

It's cheaper to keep them as a buffer to South America.

 

 

lol

 

yea right

[SleepyWhiteSox]

But it's also illegal for a very bad reason.  If we believe the statements by many in this discussion...there is clearly a need for many of these 10 million or so workers.  This means that there are people outside this country willing to fill jobs inside this country, but who we will not allow to immigrate legally because our immigration system is so far out of date.

 

I think it is a safe guess that if you gave these folks the options of immigrating legally vs. illegally, almost all of them would choose the legal option.  So there is a demand for these workers, there is a supply of these workers, but the system has not adapted to allow the demand to fill the supply.  This leaves illegal immigration as 1 option for demand and supply to come back to equilibrium, but the only problem is that it's the most taxing one on all of those other services.

 

 

That sums it up fairly neatly. They come because their is a demand for their services, so it's unfair to completely throw all of the blame on them. It's easy for the common person to b**** and complain and not want them here, but they come because they're being hired. I'll also agree that the immigration system needs to be fixed...just hope I'm not labeled as someone who blames the government for everything again...

[YASNY]

Then why such an outcry that anyone speak English? Why would it be necessary to speak at all? And Bush wants to change things so they aren't ilegal, and then we will both be happy.

 

It has been illegal forever and every decade of two we dream up a program to document these workers. The economy needs it, there are no extra cogs.

I am saying there are reasons to break a law. Some valid, some invalid. I business owner who is faced with closing his doors, or a farmer who can't get his crops picked, may have a valid reason to hire someone without documentation. A business who is just trying to exploit people, may not be on the same moral or ethical grounds. I am certain there are examples of both out there.

 

Getting back to the terrorist angle. I'm not certain where the 90% mark comes in, but any terrorist that has invested money in their plot is not going to risk death in a desert march when they can arrive as tourists, or recruit someone already here.

 

I don't recall ever saying they should have to speak English. From a personal perspective, if I relocated to a foreign country I'd attempt to learn the native tongue. But that's just me.

 

If the congress and the president can come up with a plan that fairly allows some of the illegals to achieve a legal status, I'm all for it.

 

The terrorism concern is not that a terrorist will cross the border, but what he can smuggle in when he comes. This is on par with the recent ports issue.

[Texsox]

no, it is illegal and he/she should be fined. it's  a huge drain on our government.  we can't afford to school all the illegals kids, we can't afford to pay all their hospital bills.

 

pay more, mechanize or find a new job.

 

Why we want to take an existing labor pool, trained, ready, and willing to do the job and replace them with people who have not been willing to do the job is beyond me. Let's dump all the trained workers for more expensive, untrained workers who are not familiar with the industry.

 

 

Huge drain? So if they are documented, we can then pay for all that? How much in taxes do you think people earning at or near minimum wage would contribute in taxes? That's the financial difference. The other difference will be, once legal, they will be eligible for more government programs for the working poor, the same benefits anyone working those jobs would have.

 

First off, the work is temporary and seasonal. You have to find people willing to live out of their cars for 9 months, following the crops, or have thousands of people available for a month and then they go do something else. Come up with a plan to find those workers, the country needs you. Currently people are risking their lives to work and imprisonment and huge fines to employ them.

 

You can not mechanize all jobs in agriculture. They are developing new processes all the time, but it is still labor intense. Visit a packing shed, and with all the high speed computerized sorters there are still hundreds of workers needed.

 

The farmers should find new jobs? Some people are not concered that we cannot produce enough food in the US to feed ourselves, yet they are concerned about not having enough gas for their cars.

 

Pay more? How much would you want to work three weeks at a time from Idaho to Texas? Funny that during discussion about raising the minimum wage, businesses couldn't possibly pay more, owners would close shop, etc. Now conservatives believe we can increase wages and everything will be fine.

 

Poor people are a drain on the economy. Interestingly we can afford to pay the medical bills and educate people earning minimum wage who are also not paying much if any in taxes. But we can't for other workers. And of course, business owners cannot pay much in taxes because then they will close their businesses and go do something else so they can pay less tax.

 

YAS, the learn English thing comes up all the time. Yes, you would learn the language for the country you are in, but if you and I met in a restaurant, we would converse in English. If the shopkeeper speaks English, you would be more comfortable speaking English and he would get more of your businesses. Yet, the language thing always comes up, and I find it rather silly. I wonder if deaf and mutes (is there a better term?) should be allowed to use sign language?

[Rex Kickass]

There is no official language in the United States.

[WilliamTell]

There is no official language in the United States.

 

 

No there isn't, but I think there should be. I'm not saying they should never speak Spanish just because this is a free country, they should do what to do within reason. I just don't agree with Americans having to learn Spanish because they won't learn English. I know a few states including Iowa have made English the official language and I'm glad to hear that. lol but that's mostly so they don't have to write up documents in over 100 different languages or whatever.

[Rex Kickass]

Somehow we did just fine in 230 years without an official language. I think we'll be fine for the next 230 years too.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

No there isn't, but I think there should be. I'm not saying they should never speak Spanish just because this is a free country, they should do what to do within reason. I just don't agree with Americans having to learn Spanish because they won't learn English. I know a few states including Iowa have made English the official language and I'm glad to hear that. lol but that's mostly so they don't have to write up documents in over 100 different languages or whatever.

 

The vast majority do pick up a lot of English. :banghead

 

It isn't easy to learn a new language as an adult, but many of them do pick up a lot of everyday-use English since it is essentially a necessity here. And it isn't an unwillingness to learn, it's a matter of finding time and resources to do so.

 

And yeah, it's soo horrible that Americans learn another language. :headshake