Not to sound too critical

[DBAHO]

Other options would start with Javier Lopez I'm sure.  And then if Lopez doesn't work, maybe Ozzie will realize that you don't always have to play the lefty/lefty matchup game.  You can just use one of your good righty relievers.  I doubt this happens though.  Ozzie loves the lefty/lefty matchup far too much.

Who said that Cotts only had to face Hafner?  Bring him in to face Hafner and more.

I know everyone fell in love with Logan here, and like 3E8 I personally though Lopez was probably the better option. When it's all said and done, Logan has gone from the rookie league to the majors, and even if he's not going to walk a lot of guys, it won't matter if he's going to give up the longball a lot. At least Lopez has a history of being a fairly good groundball pitcher. But hopefully Boone proves me wrong, and because a success story for the Sox.

 

As for Cotts, of course he should be used for the whole 8th inning. He's our best set-up guy, and all I was saying is that he shouldn't be used as a LOOGY like Logan is, even though he's by far the better reliever. Why Ozzie didn't use him today in that situation, I don't know.

[Rowand44]

I know everyone fell in love with Logan here, and like 3E8 I personally though Lopez was probably the better option. When it's all said and done, Logan has gone from the rookie league to the majors, and even if he's not going to walk a lot of guys, it won't matter if he's going to give up the longball a lot. At least Lopez has a history of being a fairly good groundball pitcher. But hopefully Boone proves me wrong, and because a success story for the Sox.

 

As for Cotts, of course he should be used for the whole 8th inning. He's our best set-up guy, and all I was saying is that he shouldn't be used as a LOOGY like Logan is, even though he's by far the better reliever. Why Ozzie didn't use him today in that situation, I don't know.

Boone is going to be just fine here. He's going to have a few rough spots but I like what I see out of him. I'm more worried about Thornton to be honest.

[DBAHO]

Boone is going to be just fine here.  He's going to have a few rough spots but I like what I see out of him.  I'm more worried about Thornton to be honest.

I'm on the opposite boat, and I only think that's because with the changes Coop has made to Thornton's delivery and with his stuff, he can succeed here.

[Gene Honda Civic]

GMAB.  Did anyone happen to mention that using Logan early just so happened to leave Ozzie Neal Cotts to fave Travis Hafner late in the game?  Would you rather have seen Logan or Thornton facing Haf in the 9th or 7th?

If you retire Hafner in the 8th, you don't have to face him in the 9th. (Hafner wasn't up in the 7th; I don't understand that question)

 

With six outs left in a one run game, and two lefties and a switch-hitter due up in the inning, Neal Cotts is your pitcher. No question.

 

I defend Ozzie when he's right, and have done so when it's the unpopular position in the past.

 

Today, he was dead wrong. So he's getting called out for it.

 

No amount of World Series titles afford him the luxury of being completely immune to criticism. You can continue to say he's testing these guys so they can succeed in the future, but that's just you rationalizing a poor decision.

 

Ozzie didn't throw Jenks into the fire last year, and he has better stuff, better ratings from scouts, and a better minor league track record. Jenks was in the Bigs for almost a month before he saw his first HOLD opportunity. It was almost 2 months before he got his first save opportunity. And that was ONLY because Hermanson blew the save in the 9th. Jenks was around for the save in the 10th. It was only after that 10th inning save, and the scoreless three innings in extras against Minnesota that he started being used with the lead in close games.

 

This is exactly the kind of decision that JM is still derided for today. I seem to remember him putting a young lefty in his second game in a position to fail predictably.

 

The only reason Ozzie Guillen knew that these kids were cut out for the bigtime is because he tested them in pressure situations that in the grand scheme of things didn't mean a damned thing.

And if you think that one game against the Indians doesn't mean anything "in the grand scheme of things," I don't think you understand how precious every win will be in the Central division this year.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Comparing Ozzie against himself...

 

In 2004, Cotts, then the second lefty in the pen, got a total of 6 hold opportunities. He blew 2 of them.

 

His first hold opportunity was the last week in April. He had 7 innings of low-leverage work in, with an ERA of 1.29.

[Rowand44]

I'm on the opposite boat, and I only think that's because with the changes Coop has made to Thornton's delivery and with his stuff, he can succeed here.

From what I've seen(not to much obviously) I actually like Boone's overall stuff better, including his fastball which seems to get up on the hitters quicker then Matt's imo. Obviously, I got to see more because I didn't get to watch to many spring training games now being stuck in carbondale and I've only seen matt throw on Sunday night.

[southsideirish71]

From what I've seen(not to much obviously) I actually like Boone's overall stuff better, including his fastball which seems to get up on the hitters quicker then Matt's imo.  Obviously, I got to see more because I didn't get to watch to many spring training games now being stuck in carbondale and I've only seen matt throw on Sunday night.

 

I disagree on this. Boone gets by on deception, and movement. He requires some good control or he will be meat. His velocity is good, but his arm angle has to get strike one and then throw his breaking pitches near the plate. If he gets behind he will be in trouble.

 

Matts fastball has movement, his slider is decent. He can be very overpowering if he throws strikes.

 

The difference is if Boone gets behind he has less of a chance to get his fastball by a hitter, where Matt can rear back and just blow the hitter away.

 

IMO I think the more work Matt gets, the more he shows control the more he should be used in the situation that Boone was in today. Having power arms at the back of a pen can make it a short game.

[GreatScott82]

I love Ozzie. He is the best thing that happened to this team since he left as a player. However, he did seem to have a lack of aggressiveness tonite. Why didn't he attempt to squeeze home the winning run with A.J. on 3rd and 1 man out in the 8th inning? Why did he take out BMac after just 1 inning? Its easy to question ozzie during a loss like this, i mean PK had numerous chances to drive in runs tonite, Ozzie can't control that. BUT this team should have more ways to manufacture runs other than relying on the 'big hit'. How about the 'old' bunting him over, sacrificing him in thing?

This isn't all OG's fault. Do you remember when we had that August-September slide last season? Well that is when Pods was out of the lineup. Well Pods right now is 0-12. I hate to say this, but when Pods goes so does our team. Not to mention our solid starting pitching won't mean squat with out a capable bulpen. And as of right now, im a tad bit worried about it.

Okay my negativity has run dry. Lets take 2 of 3 in KC and 2 of 3 in Detroit!! Time for Pods and PK to get going!

[Rowand44]

I disagree on this.  Boone gets by on deception, and movement.  He requires some good control or he will be meat.  His velocity is good, but his arm angle has to get strike one and then throw his breaking pitches near the plate.  If he gets behind he will be in trouble.

 

Matts fastball has movement, his slider is decent.  He can be very overpowering if he throws strikes. 

 

The difference is if Boone gets behind he has less of a chance to get his fastball by a hitter, where Matt can rear back and just blow the hitter away. 

 

IMO I think the more work Matt gets, the more he shows control the more he should be used in the situation that Boone was in today.  Having power arms at the back of a pen can make it a short game.

I saw absolutely no movement on matts fastball on sunday but once again that's the only time I've seen him pitch. His slider as well didn't impress me to much. Boone does have deception in his delivery and that's why so far to me it looks like it gets up there faster on hitters. Obviously, I want to see them both pitch some more but those are just my impressions so far of each.

[Chisoxfn]

The best thing for this team might be getting out of Chicago. There was alot of hype this series, and maybe it will be best for them to get to KC and pound the s*** out of them.

 

I really hope thats what they need...

Man I hope we beat KC, otherwise I'd hate to see this place

[Chisoxfn]

is there any news on Hermy?

 

i have enough faith in Kenny W that he'll get us a pitcher or two at some point.

 

Maybe Logan will learn something from today's outing and come back and build some confidence in KC.

 

last year was a once in a lifetime experience, leading wire to wire and winning all those one run games.

 

the sooner we stop expecting things to unfold the way they did last year, the better off we'll all be.

 

That won't be easy to do, but it's the only way we can proceed.

Hermy isn't expected back till June and last I read Sox brass was pretty upset with him for not being a straight shooter when Ozzie and Kenny asked him about his back.

[southsideirish71]

I love Ozzie. He is the best thing that happened to this team since he left as a player. However, he did seem to have a lack of aggressiveness tonite. Why didn't he attempt to squeeze home the winning run with A.J. on 3rd and 1 man out in the 8th inning? Why did he take out BMac after just 1 inning? Its easy to question ozzie during a loss like this, i mean PK had numerous chances to drive in runs tonite, Ozzie can't control that. BUT this team should have more ways to manufacture runs other than relying on the 'big hit'. How about the 'old' bunting him over, sacrificing him in thing?

This isn't all OG's fault. Do you remember when we had that August-September slide last season? Well that is when Pods was out of the lineup. Well Pods right now is 0-12. I hate to say this, but when Pods goes so does our team. Not to mention our solid starting pitching won't mean squat with out a capable bulpen. And as of right now, im a tad bit worried about it.

Okay my negativity has run dry. Lets take 2 of 3 in KC and 2 of 3 in Detroit!! Time for Pods and PK to get going!

 

 

Pods hasnt had a good series, but he was not part of the major problem. Todays major problem was hitting with RISP. Its the same problem we had a lot last year. Thome has proven a force so far, and has commanded the respect of IBB. Now Paulie needs to drive those runs in. With Thome in front of him, he will get plenty of opps to drive in runs. He could of had a monster day today as far as production if he put the ball in play. Stranding runners last year was something that really killed our offense. Our hitters cannot strike out time and time again with men on. Productive outs are part of the smartball discipline. I also think the loss of Dye today was also huge. Mack is not exactly a feared rbi hitter. He provides no protection for Konerko, and is not as good of a hitter as Dye.

 

 

Pods hopefully will start to get on base and stop putting the ball in the air on every AB. If he thinks he is a power hitter then we are in trouble.

 

Today we could of easily have drove in 7 or more runs with the opps we had with men in scoring position.

Edited April 6, 2006 by southsideirish71

[witesoxfan]

Hey, did anyone catch DJ talking about how hitters were going to put good swings on the ball against Logan all year long, only to foul them back or pop them up and wonder how they hell they did that? And then how the next pitch landed 900 feet away?

 

I kind of thought that was funny myslf.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Hey, did anyone catch DJ talking about how hitters were going to put good swings on the ball against Logan all year long, only to foul them back or pop them up and wonder how they hell they did that?  And then how the next pitch landed 900 feet away?

 

I kind of thought that was funny myslf.

Oh I caught it...

 

It wasn't halfway out of his mouth, and I was telling him to STFU. :uhoh

[Rowand44]

Hey, did anyone catch DJ talking about how hitters were going to put good swings on the ball against Logan all year long, only to foul them back or pop them up and wonder how they hell they did that?  And then how the next pitch landed 900 feet away?

 

I kind of thought that was funny myslf.

DJ has always been the ultimate jinx.

[witesoxfan]

Oh I caught it...

 

It wasn't halfway out of his mouth, and I was telling him to STFU. :uhoh

 

LOL

 

He got done saying it, and then I kind of realized what he just said, and I realized who was at the plate and I was just kind of like "Ohhh s***."

[qwerty]

DJ has always been the ultimate jinx.

 

I am just ask bad. Game chats... i call everything... and it's not like i say something for every batter.

[SSH2005]

I am just ask bad. Game chats... i call everything... and it's not like i say something for every batter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

STFU you stupid Indians fan!

[Baines3]

FIRE OZZIE!!!!!

 

Geez, the guys makes one dumb move and already some people want him fired. Everyone makes a stupid mistake now and then.

[sox-r-us]

I'm not one to second-guess managers after every game, everyone on here knows this.  But this decision was inexcusable and the outcome was called by both me and krush at the same time.

 

There's no reason to throw a rookie out there against their best hitter, I don't care if he's left-handed.

 

And even if you want to play the lefty game, cotts was available. 

 

It just seems to me the last option that should have been used was, the one, the only, boone "f-in" logan.

 

 

I actually called it too....as soon as I saw it on Gamecast, I flinched and said to my self.... "I better not see "Scoring play"" and that is exactly what focking happened

 

Again, terrible move by Ozzie. Absolutely no reason to work with a rookie's confidence against a Hafner there with the game on the line.

 

And ss2K5 - if our relivers had done the job, there would be no opportunity of facing Hafner again

[sox-r-us]

If you retire Hafner in the 8th, you don't have to face him in the 9th. (Hafner wasn't up in the 7th; I don't understand that question)

 

With six outs left in a one run game, and two lefties and a switch-hitter due up in the inning, Neal Cotts is your pitcher. No question.

 

I defend Ozzie when he's right, and have done so when it's the unpopular position in the past.

 

Today, he was dead wrong. So he's getting called out for it.

 

No amount of World Series titles afford him the luxury of being completely immune to criticism. You can continue to say he's testing these guys so they can succeed in the future, but that's just you rationalizing a poor decision.

 

Ozzie didn't throw Jenks into the fire last year, and he has better stuff, better ratings from scouts, and a better minor league track record. Jenks was in the Bigs for almost a month before he saw his first HOLD opportunity. It was almost 2 months before he got his first save opportunity. And that was ONLY because Hermanson blew the save in the 9th. Jenks was around for the save in the 10th. It was only after that 10th inning save, and the scoreless three innings in extras against Minnesota that he started being used with the lead in close games.

 

This is exactly the kind of decision that JM is still derided for today. I seem to remember him putting a young lefty in his second game in a position to fail predictably.

 

And if you think that one game against the Indians doesn't mean anything "in the grand scheme of things," I don't think you understand how precious every win will be in the Central division this year.

 

Wow Gene you are on a roll

[YASNY]

This thread being here was so predictable. Just like every time Ozzie used someone in any situation last year that wasn't one of our studs. Every time. Yet when October rolled around, our regulars were fresh, our bench was sharp and our bullpen was battle tested. Yet, all year Ozzie was an idiot.

[DBAHO]

This thread being here was so predictable.  Just like every time Ozzie used someone in any situation last year that wasn't one of our studs.  Every time.  Yet when October rolled around, our regulars were fresh, our bench was sharp and our bullpen was battle tested.  Yet, all year Ozzie was an idiot.

I suppose the argument you're going to get from that, is that we have to get to the playoffs first. But if we can get there, going through what you've said I certainly won't be complaining.

[YASNY]

The thing that is different this year from last is now Ozzie Guillen is a proven winner as a manager. People complained about him all through last year. His so called 'Sunday lineups' were a constant source of b****ing. Many on here went on record numerous times saying Ozzie could not handle a pitching staff and made lousy in game decisions. Yet, he proved them wrong. But that doesn't stop them.

[Dick Allen]

GMAB.  Did anyone happen to mention that using Logan early just so happened to leave Ozzie Neal Cotts to fave Travis Hafner late in the game?  Would you rather have seen Logan or Thornton facing Haf in the 9th or 7th?  Also, we all can look back at the last two season and see repeated instances where Ozzie used young guys in key situations.  For christ sakes he used a 300 pound alcoholic rookie with an eating disorder to close games in the playoffs and world series against one some of the best powerhitters of our generation!  You want to tell me that was smarter than using a 21 year rookie leaguer on April 4th?  This is the way that Ozzie manages.  I know many people can't see past today, but there is a method to the madness, and you can't convince me that we win the World Series with Cliff Politte close, Damaso Marte facing the key lefties late, and not utilizing our bench in the playoffs.  The only reason Ozzie Guillen knew that these kids were cut out for the bigtime is because he tested them in pressure situations that in the grand scheme of things didn't mean a damned thing.

 

The reason Ozzie used a 300 pound alcohlic to close games was because he had to. If Hermy hadn't been injured or Shingo hadn't been ineffective, Jenks wouldn't have had a save opportunity. They were looking for closers last year, but their price was prohibitive. I don't understand why its so imperative a lefty faces Hafner. McCarthy was pitching well, and if I were the manager, I would feel a lot better with McCarthy who I know is pitching well, facing Hafner, than to bring in a guy who was not too effective the day before, and at that point hadn't pitched 2 innings above A ball in his life. It obviously was a gamble that backfired. In the grand scheme of things, I would much rather have Ozzie test what kind of balls Logan has against any team but the one that probably is set up best to keep the Sox from repeating. There is no question Logan earned his way on to this team this spring, but he needs to be eased into things. This is a huge jump he's making, and it wouldn't surprise me if he's in the minor leagues in a couple of weeks.