Duke Lacrosse Rape Allegation

[southsideirish71]

Does the DA have a moral or ethical responsibility to do what the public wants even if he knows it is wrong? I don't think so, but I'm wondering how we view elected officials and following what the people who elected them want.

 

 

I have seen attorneys on both sides SAO and Defense push cases that they have known are dead losers just to appease either the public or the victims or their clients. Sometimes with a jury those cases still win.

 

The only ethical issue is if you know the person is lying or you know your evidence is tainted.

[bmags]

Evidence collection is very difficult with a rape case.  The first thing they teach you in the police adademy is to isolate and contain the crime scene.  However with a persons body that is almost impossible.  The first thing that a lot of rape victims do is to shower.  Which is the worst thing from an evidencial standpoint. 

 

DNA evidence has been around for a while.  But even back in the late 70s investigators were collecting rape kits known as Vitulo Kits.  Its basically collects pubic combings, dried blood, scrapings from underneath the fingernails of the victim.  The pubic hairs were used to match the accused.  Its not as foolproof as DNA but its pretty selective. Blood was typed and matched. 

 

Other things you need to look at also, does the accused have any wounds that could of been inflicted by the victim.  Do they have any scratches or defense wounds.  Plus description of the attacker, clothing they were wearing, any details.  Most rapes happen amongst people they know, its not the stranger rape that everyone sees on TV.  These are all things that help with the evidence gathering. 

 

Now in this case a few things are fishy.  They have obtained some genetic material obviously or they wouldnt have performed a DNA exam on the players.  When a rape victim is interviewed one of the questions have you had intercourse in the last 72 hours.  The reason for this is to collect genetic samples and pubic pullings from all those who could match for DNA.  You eliminate DNA samples that do not apply.  However this is not the case here.  They have drawn material and it hasnt matched.  This is a huge item that the defense will use to get these guys off.  Beyond a resonable doubt is the criteria. 

 

The DA is pushing this only because of the political issues at hand.  If this was cook county and the DNA testing came back negative for genetic material found in the rape kit then you drop the case.  Its not like they didnt get the right genetic drops from these guys, she positively identified them.  So if the genetic material doesnt match them, then where did it come from.

 

this was a great post...thanks man

[samclemens]

The thing about Grand Juries is that we won't really know until the trial happens.

 

I was listening to the Fan in NYC last week and they were talking about this case and whether or not the punishment of losing the season and coach was appropriate. And they had on some columnist or something from that area who said that there had been a long stream of complaints and allegations regarding the LaCrosse team and that there was a "culture of entitlement" there that the administration had seen the coach perpetuating.

 

At least that's what I thought I heard, I was half asleep.

 

yeah, i heard about some interview with a grad student at duke who said there is a "culture of rape" at duke. what the f***?! thats total bulls*** and everyone knows this. we are talking about duke university here, culture of rape is a bunch of femnazi bulls***. this is all a ton of bulls*** and the DA is hoping to railroad some kids who are white and well off so that he can get elected by people who arent. i hope this case falls flat on it's face, and that all of the players sue for malicious prosecution, defamation, and privacy torts. if those two people charged raped that girl, of course they should pay for it, but all facts we have seem to indicate they didnt. but hey, that stripper got a full ride to college for accusing some rich white kids of rape when her proof lacks DNA positive results and she is a drunk stripper. when i have children, if any are girls, i now know how to get them free tuition for college, as long as the corrupt-assed rainbow coalition is still around being run by REVEREND jesse jackson, who has admitted to misusing funds and cheating on his wife while head of the organization. oh wait, since my daughter will be white i guess thats not an option. darn it!

[LosMediasBlancas]

Evidence collection is very difficult with a rape case.  The first thing they teach you in the police adademy is to isolate and contain the crime scene.  However with a persons body that is almost impossible.  The first thing that a lot of rape victims do is to shower.  Which is the worst thing from an evidencial standpoint. 

 

DNA evidence has been around for a while.  But even back in the late 70s investigators were collecting rape kits known as Vitulo Kits.  Its basically collects pubic combings, dried blood, scrapings from underneath the fingernails of the victim.  The pubic hairs were used to match the accused.  Its not as foolproof as DNA but its pretty selective. Blood was typed and matched. 

 

Other things you need to look at also, does the accused have any wounds that could of been inflicted by the victim.  Do they have any scratches or defense wounds.  Plus description of the attacker, clothing they were wearing, any details.  Most rapes happen amongst people they know, its not the stranger rape that everyone sees on TV.  These are all things that help with the evidence gathering. 

 

Now in this case a few things are fishy.  They have obtained some genetic material obviously or they wouldnt have performed a DNA exam on the players.  When a rape victim is interviewed one of the questions have you had intercourse in the last 72 hours.  The reason for this is to collect genetic samples and pubic pullings from all those who could match for DNA.  You eliminate DNA samples that do not apply.  However this is not the case here.  They have drawn material and it hasnt matched.  This is a huge item that the defense will use to get these guys off.  Beyond a resonable doubt is the criteria. 

 

The DA is pushing this only because of the political issues at hand.  If this was cook county and the DNA testing came back negative for genetic material found in the rape kit then you drop the case.  Its not like they didnt get the right genetic drops from these guys, she positively identified them.  So if the genetic material doesnt match them, then where did it come from.

 

 

Good info. Thx man.

[Texsox]

yeah, i heard about some interview with a grad student at duke who said there is a "culture of rape" at duke. what the f***?! thats total bulls*** and everyone knows this. we are talking about duke university here, culture of rape is a bunch of femnazi bulls***.  this is all a ton of bulls*** and the DA is hoping to railroad some kids who are white and well off so that he can get elected by people who arent. i hope this case falls flat on it's face, and that all of the players sue for malicious prosecution, defamation, and privacy torts. if those two people charged raped that girl, of course they should pay for it, but all facts we have seem to indicate they didnt. but hey, that stripper got a full ride to college for accusing some rich white kids of rape when her proof lacks DNA positive results and she is a drunk stripper. when i have children, if any are girls, i now know how to get them free tuition for college, as long as the corrupt-assed rainbow coalition is still around being run by REVEREND jesse jackson, who has admitted to misusing funds and cheating on his wife while head of the organization. oh wait, since my daughter will be white i guess thats not an option. darn it!

 

 

:headshake This post has been edited by the Soxtalk staff to remove objectionable material. Soxtalk encourages a free discussion between its members, but does not allow personal attacks, threats, graphic sexual material, nudity, or any other materials judged offensive by the Administrators and Moderators. Thank you.

Edited April 19, 2006 by Texsox

[Steff]

yeah, i heard about some interview with a grad student at duke who said there is a "culture of rape" at duke. what the f***?! thats total bulls*** and everyone knows this. we are talking about duke university here, culture of rape is a bunch of femnazi bulls***.  this is all a ton of bulls*** and the DA is hoping to railroad some kids who are white and well off so that he can get elected by people who arent. i hope this case falls flat on it's face, and that all of the players sue for malicious prosecution, defamation, and privacy torts. if those two people charged raped that girl, of course they should pay for it, but all facts we have seem to indicate they didnt. but hey, that stripper got a full ride to college for accusing some rich white kids of rape when her proof lacks DNA positive results and she is a drunk stripper. when i have children, if any are girls, i now know how to get them free tuition for college, as long as the corrupt-assed rainbow coalition is still around being run by REVEREND jesse jackson, who has admitted to misusing funds and cheating on his wife while head of the organization. oh wait, since my daughter will be white i guess thats not an option. darn it!

 

 

 

Hellooooo Daniel Carver.

[samclemens]

oh i see. because i am calling this ram-job what it is, im a racist. makes total sense, since i dont have a liberal view on the issue i must be ignorant, backwards, racist and intolerant. i probably also live in the country and not the city, right?

[Texsox]

oh i see. because i am calling this ram-job what it is, im a racist. makes total sense, since i dont have a liberal view on the issue i must be ignorant, backwards, racist and intolerant. i probably also live in the country and not the city, right?

 

You are so quick and well versed with the stereotypes.

[Steff]

oh i see. because i am calling this ram-job what it is, im a racist. makes total sense, since i dont have a liberal view on the issue i must be ignorant, backwards, racist and intolerant. i probably also live in the country and not the city, right?

 

 

Maybe if you didn't generalize so much..

 

The situation is questionable enough on it's own without dragging all folks of color into it as an attempt to support your position.

 

That, and it's ignorant and insulting to the members here who are of the AA race. MO.

[southsider2k5]

oh i see. because i am calling this ram-job what it is, im a racist. makes total sense, since i dont have a liberal view on the issue i must be ignorant, backwards, racist and intolerant. i probably also live in the country and not the city, right?

 

It kinda sucks when your stereotypes and ignorance get answered back in kind, doesn't it?

[Balta1701]

So, a few other noteworthy bits...

 

The Duke Lacross coach was warned last year that he needed to get his kids under control.

 

That community service 1 of these 2 kids was given was for beating up a man and using anti-homosexual slurs against him.

 

So...to go along with that...I'd just like to note how some of the people saying this is just an out of control prosecutor are willing to happily believe the government's case against every inmate at Gitmo despite the fact that none of them have had trials either.

 

And once again, i'll repeat, since it was brought up again; all of the DNA evidence isn't back yet. We only know about the statement of the defense attorney. We know more has been sent out for testing, and we don't know those results yet. The report that the stripper was drunk wasn't the best-sourced story I've ever seen, and it may very well have been a leak from the defense team or someone defending the lacross players & trying to muddy the waters of the jury pool. Or even if she was, there may well be other evidence we don't yet know about.

 

It is going to be months before this reaches trial and the D.A. has to show all his cards. You may very well be right that there will be almost no evidence against these kids in the end, but until you actually know what is there, how in the world can you blame this on the D.A.? Or does someone here actually work for that D.A.'s office and have access to all the evidence?

[kapkomet]

oh i see. because i am calling this ram-job what it is, im a racist. makes total sense, since i dont have a liberal view on the issue i must be ignorant, backwards, racist and intolerant. i probably also live in the country and not the city, right?

What ever happened to letting the full story come out? You have enough stereotypes in your comments to completely dismiss any slight credibility you thought you had.

Edited April 19, 2006 by kapkomet

[Soxbadger]

Right now this is all posturing.

 

DA posturing that they have the evidence, Defense posturing that DA has nothing.

 

Basically this round is for the plea bargain. Defense attorney trying to get his client a great plea by putting the DA to the coals and saying "If you dont get him on some slap on the wrist, your not going to get any conviction." On the other side you have the DA saying to the defense attorney "If he pleas guilty now we will give him a deal that he would never have gotten if this goes to trial."

 

Next will come the round where the attorneys try and break down the 2 defendants. Since they are being defended by 2 different attorneys (its very rare for a criminal case for 2 defendants to have a single attorney) the DA is going to try and flip one for a deal.

 

"You tell on X, we will give you probation or plead you to a misdemeanor so this never goes on your record."

 

The DNA evidence is not 100% exculpatory, especially if you can get a second witness to corraborate the story of the girl. Even if the next round of DNA comes back positive, there will still be some wiggle room for the defense.

 

With out the evidence its hard to speak specifically about what tactics I think would be more successful, just in general this is the type of stuff thats going on now. Another problem for the defendants is that they are both from NY, meaning that if the trial does take place the DA will paint them as outsiders.

[bmags]

well i'm not gonna deny that these kids are probably assholes...the question is whether they are rapists.

[Rex Kickass]

oh i see. because i am calling this ram-job what it is, im a racist. makes total sense, since i dont have a liberal view on the issue i must be ignorant, backwards, racist and intolerant. i probably also live in the country and not the city, right?

 

I think there's a big difference between a culture of entitlement and a culture of rape. The guy on the Fan said that there was a history of bad, borderline illegal behavior on behalf of the Duke students. How you managed to associate that with a free pass for raping girls is beyond me.

[Controlled Chaos]

I think there's a big difference between a culture of entitlement and a culture of rape. The guy on the Fan said that there was a history of bad, borderline illegal behavior on behalf of the Duke students. How you managed to associate that with a free pass for raping girls is beyond me.

 

Im reserving comments till all the facts come out. Generalizations and stereotypes don't help, but neither does calling someone a racist. Racist gets thrown around to easily.

 

Here's one student who used the phrase "culture of rape"

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/lac...e-fallout_x.htm

 

Alvaro Jarrin, a Duke graduate student, wore a T-shirt imploring the silent players to speak up.

 

"It is important that we not let this go down easily," he said as hundreds of marchers began gathering on Duke's east campus. "There's a culture of rape at Duke, so we're hoping this will get them to speak up. This rape is a symptom of a larger problem at Duke."

[Soxy]

Im reserving comments till all the facts come out.  Generalizations and stereotypes don't help, but neither does calling someone a racist.  Racist gets thrown around to easily. 

 

Here's one student who used the phrase "culture of rape"

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/lac...e-fallout_x.htm

 

Alvaro Jarrin, a Duke graduate student, wore a T-shirt imploring the silent players to speak up.

 

"It is important that we not let this go down easily," he said as hundreds of marchers began gathering on Duke's east campus. "There's a culture of rape at Duke, so we're hoping this will get them to speak up. This rape is a symptom of a larger problem at Duke."

As a former rape counselor on a college campus, I don't have any problem with applying this term to my old school or my current one.

[jackie hayes]

The report that the stripper was drunk wasn't the best-sourced story I've ever seen, and it may very well have been a leak from the defense team or someone defending the lacross players & trying to muddy the waters of the jury pool.  Or even if she was, there may well be other evidence we don't yet know about.

 

It is going to be months before this reaches trial and the D.A. has to show all his cards.  You may very well be right that there will be almost no evidence against these kids in the end, but until you actually know what is there, how in the world can you blame this on the D.A.?  Or does someone here actually work for that D.A.'s office and have access to all the evidence?

It was a recording of the police frequency acquired by the AP. How is that a bad source?

 

At least, it sure as hell wasn't a "leak".

 

Her case sounded very strong initially, but now -- the dna evidence that the da himself was talking about turned into dust (yes, more tests are forthcoming, I know that). She's passed out in a parking lot afterward, perhaps (defense photos) f***ed up before, and you have other people questioning her story (security guard, maybe the other dancer). The da is up for reelection in TWO WEEKS, and he has been demagoguing about, saying how this illustrates racist violence. And you don't know why this sounds really fishy?

 

Why are you so eager to defend this guy? This defense -- 'Well, he's got to have SOMETHING good to go to trial' is exactly like saying 'Bush MUST have had good evidence to go to war.' No -- politicians do stupid things for ideology or elections. And this case got weak in BIG hurry.

 

If Nifong had been reserved about this up to now, I might think your view is credible. But he's shot his mouth off every which way. If he's holding anything in reserve, he must have started with a veritable mountain of evidence.

[jackie hayes]

As a former rape counselor on a college campus, I don't have any problem with applying this term to my old school or my current one.

Two things: First, CC was pointing out that "culture of rape" is not sc's coinage (as Rex suggested), that it was an exact quote. That's exactly right.

 

Second, I don't believe you. At least, I don't believe that your definition of "culture" is the same as mine. There is a "culture of pornography" (nudge, nudge, wink, wink). There is a culture of alcohol, binge drinking, even alcoholism, a culture of drug use. Fine. But I would ask you to provide some backup to this claim that rape is generally acceptable on these college campuses. If you're just saying that people are reluctant to turn on their friends, it's pretty ridiculous to call that a "culture." "Culture" implies some common knowledge and acceptance, not just a misplaced personal loyalty.

[Soxy]

Two things:  First, CC was pointing out that "culture of rape" is not sc's coinage (as Rex suggested), that it was an exact quote.  That's exactly right.

 

Second, I don't believe you.  At least, I don't believe that your definition of "culture" is the same as mine.  There is a "culture of pornography" (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).  There is a culture of alcohol, binge drinking, even alcoholism, a culture of drug use.  Fine.  But I would ask you to provide some backup to this claim that rape is generally acceptable on these college campuses.  If you're just saying that people are reluctant to turn on their friends, it's pretty ridiculous to call that a "culture."  "Culture" implies some common knowledge and acceptance, not just a misplaced personal loyalty.

I think there is a culture of believing she must be lying, so she isn't thought to be a slut, to get something, etc. There is a culture of believing the accused to be innocent until proven guilty, but the accuser is a slut from the second she goes to the police.

 

 

As for "proof" I only have my experience working with my college administration and students (as well as occassionally the police). I saw rapists admit they had done it, and not be kicked out of school--the only ramification was picking dorms and classes after the victim. I had one student get her complaint not heard because she was drunk at the time. So, I have no proof, but after working on it for four years (and visiting and doing training at other schools in the region, I can't say I found any different attitudes elsewhere).

 

And apologies to CC, my response was more proded and inspired by samclemens.

Edited April 19, 2006 by Soxy

[whitesoxfan101]

This whole thing would be over if not for somebody trying to get re elected. Sad but true.

[Soxbadger]

Um how can you say that?

 

In an election year the last thing you want as a DA is a controversial case that you may lose.

 

The thing the DA wants most is for this s***ty case to go away, and a bright shining new case to show up with great evidence and an assured conviction.

 

The statement this is only about being re-elected is very misguided in my opinion.

[whitesoxfan101]

Um how can you say that?

 

In an election year the last thing you want as a DA is a controversial case that you may lose.

 

The thing the DA wants most is for this s***ty case to go away, and a bright shining new case to show up with great evidence and an assured conviction.

 

The statement this is only about being re-elected is very misguided in my opinion.

 

He's in a highly majority african american voter district, and this case is the black stripper vs. the rich white guys from Duke, no matter how else it may be portrayed. There is a reason lack of DNA evidence all of a sudden means nothing when it comes to this case.

Edited April 19, 2006 by whitesoxfan101

[southsider2k5]

He's in a highly majority african american voter district, and this case is the black stripper vs. the rich white guys from Duke, no matter how else it may be portrayed.  There is a reason lack of DNA evidence all of a sudden means nothing when it comes to this case.

 

Because it happens in 75-80% of sexual assult cases?

[jackie hayes]

I think there is a culture of believing she must be lying, so she isn't thought to be a slut, to get something, etc. There is a culture of believing the accused to be innocent until proven guilty, but the accuser is a slut from the second she goes to the police.

 

And apologies to CC, my response was more proded and inspired by samclemens.

That's not how I take "culture of rape", but okay. I don't deny that there are groups (not small ones) that think that way.

 

The existence of apologists, and their tendency to associate, doesn't make a culture, imo. By that logic, we have in every single place a culture of anything. A culture of white-on-black murder, of black-on-white murder, anything.

 

It's a little ironic to say a culture of rape exists because some people make bad assumptions about other groups, in defending a statement that assumed that the white athletes must certainly be guilty, since (those) people make bad assumptions about other groups. Those people, some people, but certainly not our dear, truthful Alvaro.