take it easy on ozzie

[Dick Allen]

If he's afraid to put him in to face Hafner then Logan shouldn't be on the team.

 

It was a bad pitch, that's not the managers fault.

That's not the point. Was he afraid to have BMac face him, is that why he was yanked? Of course not. It was the 8th inning, to me that's Cotts' job if they aren't going to let BMac, a guy who was pitching pretty well, continue. Maybe it was a test to see if Logan can do the job in those situations. I would prefer, and others on this board agree, Ozzie doesn't do his testing in a 1 run game in the 8th inning against the team that most likely poses the biggest threat to the White Sox division title defense. Losing that game was a 2 game swing with Cleveland, and last year we found out how important winning series against division opponents is, and how important winning games in April is. Now, Cotts wasn't exactly stellar Wednesday either, and he may have coughed up the lead himself. I actually was stunned they didn't let McCarthy continue. I'd rather have a righty I know is throwing well face Hafner, than a lefty with 1 inning above A ball at that point, that might not have his good stuff that day. Worst case scenerio BMac gives up a homer, but then you have an extra guy in the bullpen if the game goes extra innings.

[Guest JimH]

Rather than reply to each of you people individually, I'll lay it out here.

 

Boone Logan is on the team to be the lefthanded specialist. Period. In case I'm wrong or have missed something, please inform me. It is his job to get the Hafners, Stairs, etc. of the league out. They might have needed Cotts in the 9th, Jenks is still a bit iffy with velocity, control, etc. as everyone here knows.

 

There was nothing wrong with putting a guy in to do a job that suits his role to a T.

 

The player did not execute. You bring a guy north because he supposedly can do the job, and then during Game 3 of the season you suddenly say, "well it's Travis Hafner, we don't have confidence in Boone Logan to get the job done"? That's ludicrous. Not to mention he'd already proven he could get Hafner out.

 

As for McCarthy, let's suppose Hafner homered off of him. Please, all you 2nd guessers, tell me you wouldn't have screamed that a lefty pitcher shouldn't have been in.

 

The Hermanson/Jenks comment makes no sense whatsoever so it's not worth a comment.

 

My feeling was and continues to be they will keep setting up tests for Boone Logan, especially during this first month. Either he proves he can handle it or he can't. If he can't, they'll get someone else.

[WCSox]

You bring a guy north because he supposedly can do the job, and then during Game 3 of the season you suddenly say, "well it's Travis Hafner, we don't have confidence in Boone Logan to get the job done"?  That's ludicrous.

 

You're missing the point. This isn't about confidence (or lack thereof) in Logan. This is about putting in the pitcher who gives the Sox the best chance to win the series. In the eigth inning against a lefty, that would be Cotts, who posted a microscopic 1.94 ERA in 60 innings of relief last year. He's proven major-league talent. Boone Logan is not. Alternatively, leaving McCarthy in for the 8th would've been acceptable as well.

 

Had we won the game on Tuesday, this wouldn't have bothered me as much. But winning a series against a divisional rival and playoff contender is more important than developing young pitchers. This isn't 1999.

 

As for McCarthy, let's suppose Hafner homered off of him.  Please, all you 2nd guessers, tell me you wouldn't have screamed that a lefty pitcher shouldn't have been in.

 

I wouldn't have. B-Mac mowed them down in the previous inning and I think that the lefty-righty matchups are overrated anyway. A quality pitcher can get anybody out.

Edited April 7, 2006 by WCSox

[Guest JimH]

You're missing the point.  This isn't about confidence (or lack thereof) in Logan.  This is about putting the person in who gives the Sox the best chance to win the series.  In the eigth inning against a lefty, that would be Cotts, who posted a microscopic 1.94 ERA in 60 innings of relief last year.  He's proven major-league talent.  Boone Logan is not.  Alternatively, leaving McCarthy in for the 8th would've been acceptable as well.

 

Had we won the game on Tuesday, this wouldn't have bothered me as much.  But winning a series against a divisional rival and playoff contender is more important than developing young pitchers.  This isn't 1999.

I wouldn't have.  B-Mac mowed them down in the previous inning and I think that the lefty-righty matchups are overrated anyway.  A quality pitcher can get anybody out.

:rolly

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Are you the only one who decides what the point is?

 

No, you're not.

 

This is about a long baseball season, a season where you will go thru up's and downs, where you will use all 25 of your players, and where you use crucial situations early in the season to find out which players to rely on later in the season.

 

Now, I understand you have a micromanager view of every single at bat, every single inning, every single game. Thankfully, Guillen doesn't. Thankfully, Guillen uses his bench a lot, shows confidence in players, gives them a chance to succeed. If you were managing none of that would ever happen. And let's face it, if McCarthy had stayed in and he gave up a bomb to Hafner, you'd be on here criticizing that decision too, because you have a microscopic view of every game.

 

There's a bigger picture here, apparantly you don't get it, so it's not worth explaining it to you.

 

Lastly, your Hermanson/Jenks comment still doesn't make sense, so you can stuff your eye rolly, mmmmkay?

 

What you don't know about managing a baseball team is quite a lot.

[Guest JimH]

In that situation in the 8th, Hafner is trying to tie the game up with one swing.  Cotts is one of the hardest guys in baseball to homer against.  Like you said, no one is sure that Cotts would have gotten Hafner out.  However, I'm fairly confident in saying that Cotts had a much greater chance of keeping Hafner in the park.  And as for the Michaels AB, I think Ozzie is going to learn to go with righties against him in those situations.  He can just rake against LHP.

 

The reasons we lost were that our hitters couldn't execute in the last 5 innings of the game, and Boone Logan had a job to do, and made an awful pitch.  I'm not freaking out about one loss though.  There will be plenty of more games like this that we lose, and plenty of games that we'll win that we didn't deserve to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But you were on here all last year saying how great Cotts is against righties.

 

I totally agree with Boone Logan having a job to do, and making a bad pitch, and not freaking out about one loss, and the hitters not executing.

 

However, SoxTalk does have micromanagers who are freaking out. That is the very nature of SoxTalk. Oh, that and 2nd guessing.

[WCSox]

Are you the only one who decides what the point is?

 

No, you're not.

 

I simply pointed out that you're missing my point. What's wrong with that?

 

This is about a long baseball season, a season where you will go thru up's and downs, where you will use all 25 of your players, and where you use crucial situations early in the season to find out which players to rely on later in the season.

 

Yes, and you also need to do what you can to win series, especially against good teams. Again, this isn't 1999 anymore.

 

Now, I understand you have a micromanager view of every single at bat, every single inning, every single game.  Thankfully, Guillen doesn't.  Thankfully, Guillen uses his bench a lot, shows confidence in players, gives them a chance to succeed.

 

I never said that I knew more about managing than Ozzie. But let's stop pretending that he's beyond reproach.

 

If you were managing none of that would ever happen.  And let's face it, if McCarthy had stayed in and he gave up a bomb to Hafner, you'd be on here criticizing that decision too, because you have a microscopic view of every game.

 

You're dead wrong there. I can accept proven MLB talent giving it up in a crucial game. I can't accept a rookie being put in that position with the series victory on the line.

 

There's a bigger picture here, apparantly you don't get it, so it's not worth explaining it to you.

 

:rolly

 

If you don't think that winning a series against a strong divisional opponent in April is important, you're wrong. The "bigger picture" is winning. Rookie relief pitchers can be developed in less critical situations.

 

Lastly, your Hermanson/Jenks comment still doesn't make sense, so you can stuff your eye rolly, mmmmkay?

 

My point was that rookies need to show that they can get it done at the major-league level before they're put in critical situations. Jenks' 100-mph fastball makes him a great candidate to be a closer, but Ozzie didn't put him into save situations right off the bat. And if Jenks had crapped his pants after being called up, somebody else would've been moved to the closer role after Hermanson's back became a problem.

 

What you don't know about managing a baseball team is quite a lot.

 

I've made every effort to be civil in this discussion, so I don't know where this condescending crap is coming from.

[ScottyDo]

You can't hide Logan all year.  He's gonna have to be in those types of situations if he's gonna be in your bullpen.  Or else why is he here?  I'd rather him get experience in those types of spots now.

My thoughts exactly. First pressure situation he's seen yet, and I'd rather now than September. Get him some pitches against good hitters in tight situations early, even if it is against the indians. Otherwise you'll never know when the time comes.

[Rowand44]

My thoughts exactly.  First pressure situation he's seen yet, and I'd rather now than September.  Get him some pitches against good hitters in tight situations early, even if it is against the indians.  Otherwise you'll never know when the time comes.

He could work his way up just like Shingo did in 04. I still think what Ozzie did was the wrong move but whatever, he's going to make more wrong moves this season and he's going to make moves that everyone on here absolutely hates that end up working out.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Riiiiiiiiiiiight.  No one would have gotten on here and mentioned that Neal pitched two innings the prior day and that Logan got Hafner to GIDP on opening day and ripped Ozzie for using Cotts despite those facts.  That is laughable.

 

Where were you guys yesterday? lol. I could've used some back-up.

[Dick Allen]

Riiiiiiiiiiiight.  No one would have gotten on here and mentioned that Neal pitched two innings the prior day and that Logan got Hafner to GIDP on opening day and ripped Ozzie for using Cotts despite those facts.  That is laughable.

Actually, both Logan and Cotts pitched 2 innings on Tuesday. Logan did get Hafner to roll into a DP on Tuesday, but it also gave him a good look at him. What happened to Matt Thornton? I haven't heard 1 person mention the 2 innings Logan pitched Tuesday. Obviously, Cotts was available, everyone in the bullpen was available. Ozzie chose to use the last guy on his staff. It backfired. We will never know how the others would have fared, it may have been worse, but if it was, I would have been able to go home sooner, it was freezing.

[CWSGuy406]

Riiiiiiiiiiiight.  No one would have gotten on here and mentioned that Neal pitched two innings the prior day and that Logan got Hafner to GIDP on opening day and ripped Ozzie for using Cotts despite those facts.  That is laughable.

 

Uhh, Boone Logan pitched two innings the prior day as well, and actually threw more pitches than Cotts...

[WCSox]

I still think what Ozzie did was the wrong move but whatever

 

That pretty much sums it up for me. I'm moving on and looking forward to tonight's matchup.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Uhh, Boone Logan pitched two innings the prior day as well, and actually threw more pitches than Cotts...

Second Guesser! Heretic!

[Guest JimH]

I simply pointed out that you're missing my point.  What's wrong with that?

Yes, and you also need to do what you can to win series, especially against good teams.  Again, this isn't 1999 anymore.

I never said that I knew more about managing than Ozzie.  But let's stop pretending that he's beyond reproach.

You're dead wrong there.  I can accept proven MLB talent giving it up in a crucial game.  I can't accept a rookie being put in that position with the series victory on the line.

:rolly

 

If you don't think that winning a series against a strong divisional opponent in April is important, you're wrong.  The "bigger picture" is winning.  Rookie relief pitchers can be developed in less critical situations.

My point was that rookies need to show that they can get it done at the major-league level before they're put in critical situations.  Jenks' 100-mph fastball makes him a great candidate to be a closer, but Ozzie didn't put him into save situations right off the bat.  And if Jenks had crapped his pants after being called up, somebody else would've been moved to the closer role after Hermanson's back became a problem.

I've made every effort to be civil in this discussion, so I don't know where this condescending crap is coming from.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yeah sure know-it-all teenager (or 20-something).

 

The rolly eye bulls*** and the "condescending crap" comment, yeah, that's being civil.

 

The fact that you say I'm dead wrong shows you know f*** all about baseball. They have Logan as the lefty specialist, what is it about that you don't get? Are you that dense? Yeah, I think maybe you are.

 

They brought him in to face the lefthander, micromanaging 2nd guesser.

 

And guess what, micromanaging 2nd guesser, he'll do it again. That's exactly what he did last year. He tests guys out early in the season. If you had your way, he'd play all the regulars all the time and use 2 bullpen guys.

 

Wake up.

[Guest JimH]

Uhh, Boone Logan pitched two innings the prior day as well, and actually threw more pitches than Cotts...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Keith,

 

He wanted to save Cotts in case he needed him in the 9th or a tie game. Logan is the lefty specialist, that's why he used him against Hafner in the 8th. You are correct that both pitched two innings. Guillen used Logan in the role they have him in, he made a bad pitch.

 

As for Thornton, I'm sure he'll get some innings this weekend.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Keith,

 

He wanted to save Cotts in case he needed him in the 9th or a tie game.  Logan is the lefty specialist, that's why he used him against Hafner in the 8th.  You are correct that both pitched two innings.  Guillen used Logan in the role they have him in, he made a bad pitch.

 

As for Thornton, I'm sure he'll get some innings this weekend.

Jim,

 

Can you name one player in the major league draft era who was put into a "hold situation" with just 7 innings pitched above Rookie ball?

[CWSGuy406]

Keith,

 

He wanted to save Cotts in case he needed him in the 9th or a tie game.  Logan is the lefty specialist, that's why he used him against Hafner in the 8th.  You are correct that both pitched two innings.  Guillen used Logan in the role they have him in, he made a bad pitch.

 

As for Thornton, I'm sure he'll get some innings this weekend.

 

Jim, the thing is, I'm not buying that Cotts explanation -- even if it is Ozzie's logic behind it.

 

I don't want to come off as second-guessing, because I was saying it to my TV at the time it occured. If, in fact, Ozzie uses Cotts, and the same thing happens, he'd still have Jenks + Logan + Thorton for extra innings.

 

Don't get me wrong -- I fully understand what you're thinking when you say that Ozzie isn't just managing for now, but for September and October. I realize that. But it's the 8th inning of a game, and Hafner and Martinez, two of the best hitters in the division, are coming up -- you need your best, regardless of whether or not Cotts/McCarthy are the "LOOGY".

 

Again -- I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree with it.

[Dick Allen]

Keith,

 

He wanted to save Cotts in case he needed him in the 9th or a tie game.  Logan is the lefty specialist, that's why he used him against Hafner in the 8th.  You are correct that both pitched two innings.  Guillen used Logan in the role they have him in, he made a bad pitch.

 

As for Thornton, I'm sure he'll get some innings this weekend.

If he has so little confidence in Jenks in the ninth, that he can't use his primary left handed set-up man in the 8th, there is a huge problem. And if he wanted to save someone for extra innings, he might as well have left McCarthy in. I was at the game, and can tell you my entire section was questioning this move when it occurred. That's not second guessing, and its not micro-managing. Micro-managing would be what Ozzie did. Make sure Hafner saw a lefty, no matter what.

Edited April 7, 2006 by Dick Allen

[Gene Honda Civic]

Jim, the thing is, I'm not buying that Cotts explanation -- even if it is Ozzie's logic behind it. 

I also don't buy the "I didn't want to have him sit down" explaination.

 

Here's Brandon McCarthy talking about his outing from the same game.

"I definitely think this one was more of a bullpen experience than anything else that I had,'' McCarthy said. "I had to get up, sit down, get up again, get ready quickly. It was a little bit more where you're on a string. So it was good to get in there and know I could throw strikes.''

McCarthy was throwing in the 5th. Sat down. Started throwing while Count was back on the mound in the 6th. Sat down. Then warmed up to come in for the 7th.

[fathom]

If he has so little confidence in Jenks in the ninth, that he can't use his primary left handed set-up man in the 8th, there is a huge problem.

 

As I said a few days ago, if we're saving Cotts to pitch in the 9th inning, we're going to have a lot of blown saves from our lefties not named Neal. I don't understand's Ozzie reasoning for using Logan that he gave in the press. He said Logan had been warming up, and he didn't want to have to sit him down (since he'd be unable to go the rest of the game if he cooled off). Relievers have got to have the ability to get loose and then cool off, etc. It happens all the time, and I'd like to think that Logan isn't that fragile.

[Guest JimH]

If he has so little confidence in Jenks in the ninth, that he can't use his primary left handed set-up man in the 8th, there is a huge problem. And if he wanted to save someone for extra innings, he might as well have left McCarthy in. I was at the game, and can tell you my entire section was questioning this move when it occurred. That's not second guessing, and its not micro-managing. Micro-managing would be what Ozzie did. Make sure Hafner saw a lefty, no matter what.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I was at the game too, my section was saying it was a good test to put him in again vs. Hafner.

 

Now, tell me what you would've said here had McCarthy served up a long ball to Hafner. Do tell. I bet it would've been something along the lines of "why not Cotts, heck, why not Logan even?".

 

As for Jenks, no one said he has little confidence in Jenks. Ozzie said he'd be giving Cotts some save opportunities is the timing and match ups were right.

[Guest JimH]

Jim,

 

Can you name one player in the major league draft era who was put into a "hold situation" with just 7 innings pitched above Rookie ball?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I know of none, who cares? What's the difference? That's why Boone Logan is on the team, to get lefthanded hitters out and maybe more if he's throwing well.

 

Is there some kind of obscure rule that you know of that says he's not allowed to pitch in a hold situation?

 

They put him on the team for a reason, they're gonna use him for that reason, until such time he shows he can't do the job.

[Guest JimH]

As I said a few days ago, if we're saving Cotts to pitch in the 9th inning, we're going to have a lot of blown saves from our lefties not named Neal.  I don't understand's Ozzie reasoning for using Logan that he gave in the press.  He said Logan had been warming up, and he didn't want to have to sit him down (since he'd be unable to go the rest of the game if he cooled off).  Relievers have got to have the ability to get loose and then cool off, etc.  It happens all the time, and I'd like to think that Logan isn't that fragile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Guillen said he'd mix and match using people in the 9th inning with Jenks as the primary guy.

 

I agree with you that I hope Logan isn't that fragile. I guess Ozzie was trying to find out, and I guess we'll find out soon enough too, right? I think he's being cautious with both Logan and McCarthy, they are new to the bullpen and adjusting, and then there's that novel idea of looking at the bigger picture.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Now, tell me what you would've said here had McCarthy served up a long ball to Hafner.  Do tell.  I bet it would've been something along the lines of "why not Cotts, heck, why not Logan even?".

As soon as McCarthy retired Peralta with another nasty hook, I said "I'd run him back out there for the 8th" Use him like Scot Shields. I didn't care if Hafner was in the box. That's the see-what-he can do attitude that people are using to defend Logan's outing.

 

McCarthy may not have been the right call, but he sure looked like a good bet to get the job done. It's telling that McCarthy's first ever hold opportunity came in the same game, and an inning earlier than Boone Logan's.

[fathom]

The game reminded me of game 3 vs the Indians last year, where Ozzie went away from the hot pitcher (Hermanson/McCarthy) and instead played by the book (bringing closer Shingo/lefty match-up vs Logan). Hopefully Ozzie learns from this game like he did from last year's debacle of a game 3.