The Gospel of Judas. . .

[Soxy]

Link--may need to register

Tidbits from article. . .

 

The text begins ``the secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot.''

 

The key passage comes when Jesus tells Judas ``you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothed me.''

 

National Geographic said the author of the gospel of Judas believed that Judas Iscariot alone understood the true significance of Jesus' teachings.

 

Another Link

 

From that article:

"This dramatic discovery of an ancient non-biblical text -- considered by some to be the most significant in the past 60 years -- enhances our knowledge of the history and theological viewpoints of the early Christian period, and is worthy of study by historians, scholars and theologians," Garcia said.

 

"This process will take time and ongoing dialogue which has just begun."

Edited April 6, 2006 by Soxy

[southsider2k5]

The "lost" books of the bible are facinating stuff. I can't get enough of them, and they really reenforce the central message of Jesus, which is love and forgiveness. The problem is some of the details are not exactly what the church wanted originally so they picked the stories that fit all of the key points, and they missed a lot because of it. We missed Christ's childhood, his upbringing, the lives of the people surrounding him, and I believe the fact that he had a family. I know that is controversial at best, but it doesn't make sense to me any other way.

[Soxy]

I read an article in Vanity Fair last year (or maybe 2 years ago), shortly before Pope John Paul II passed that discussed his more mystical side of faith. Do you know if he did any writing on some of these gospels? I think he might have had a more inclusive (or open minded) view of the gnostic gospels than the current Pope and I would have enjoyed reading his thoughts.

 

My bible (Oxford NRSV ed 3) has the apocrapha, and I love reading those books. I also have looked at (I think Elaine Pagel?) The Gnostic Gospels (I think that's the title). Really just intriguing stuff.

[Texsox]

Whenever I think of Christ's childhood I can't help but believe that somewhere there were kids thinking Oh s***, I beat the crap out of him in 2nd grade.

[Soxy]

Whenever I think of Christ's childhood I can't help but believe that somewhere there were kids thinking Oh s***, I beat the crap out of him in 2nd grade.

Actually, in one of the gnostic gospels there is a chronicle of Christ's childhood. It's not, um, really the most scholarly (though amausing). It's been a few years since I looked at it. I think they're all interesting, but well of varying spiritual importance But it includes something where this kid irritates Jesus and he does some serious damage.

 

Oh, found a link. The Infancy Gospel of Thomas.

 

English translation

Kind of reminds me of the Fig Tree Incident in Mark.

 

Actually, Jesus in this gospel kind of reminds me of Stewie Griffin. . .

Edited April 6, 2006 by Soxy

[southsider2k5]

I read an article in Vanity Fair last year (or maybe 2 years ago), shortly before Pope John Paul II passed that discussed his more mystical side of faith. Do you know if he did any writing on some of these gospels? I think he might have had a more inclusive (or open minded) view of the gnostic gospels than the current Pope and I would have enjoyed reading his thoughts.

 

My bible (Oxford NRSV ed 3) has the apocrapha, and I love reading those books. I also have looked at (I think Elaine Pagel?) The Gnostic Gospels (I think that's the title). Really just intriguing stuff.

 

I never heard he said anything about those kind of writings and even if he believed it, he would have never been allowed to let something like that out. I know he was a central figure in the remaking of Mary Magdeline, so I think really got the message of the NT more than most in the Catholic church do/did.

 

Also the Gospel of Thomas is incredible. It really opens your eyes and makes you want to read more of the other "lost" gospels. To me Christ is a much more believable human if he acts like a human, and therefore needs forgiveness. Also I really believe no one would have listened to his message if he was unwed or didn't have any children, as that was a real sign of something being wrong with that person. Either God had cursed them, or something was wrong with them. I believe for anyone to even pay attention to his message he would have had to have had the basic credibility of marriage and children.

[Soxy]

To me Christ is a much more believable human if he acts like a human, and therefore needs forgiveness.  Also I really believe no one would have listened to his message if he was unwed or didn't have any children, as that was a real sign of something being wrong with that person.  Either God had cursed them, or something was wrong with them.  I believe for anyone to even pay attention to his message he would have had to have had the basic credibility of marriage and children.

Absolutely, 100% agree. I don't buy the whole him and MM thing, but, I think he would have been married.

 

And the whole human side is why Mark (to me) is the most accessible of the Gospels. The rest make Jesus more God than human, and it really helps me to see him struggle with his disciples or be tired and irked. Plus, it's the only gospel where Jesus gets baptised FOR the forgiveness of sins without any apology for what that may mean. Also, the disciples are more believable there too, very human, afraid of what being followers may mean for them, etc. (Plus it's short so the easiest to get through).

[Soxy]

NYT article, registration required, but worth it.

[southsider2k5]

NYT article, registration required, but worth it.

 

Very interesting. Although I don't know about Judas as a willing and eagar particpant in the betrayal of Jesus, because if that is the case, it really isn't much of a betrayal, but more of a well laid plan. To me that really underminds a key idea that Jesus was abandonded and alone at the end, which this would be saying that the apostle/s were willing participants. I think if this Gospel truely comes from Judas or someone sympathic to him, it would stand to reason that they would soften his role, or even make it more noble here. To me it doesn't fit in the big picture of the crucifiction.

[Soxy]

I've always thought Judas got a bum rap. If it's God's will that this would happen, why would Judas be eternally damned? I've always felt bad for him.

 

Have you read Fear and Trembling, SS? It's sort of a treatise about what faith entails, starting with a meditation on Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac on Mt Moriah? Kierkegaard says that faith requires a belief in the absurd, so Abraham believed that he would sacrifice Isaac, but that he would not have to be without him. (sort of a paradox) This interpretation of Judas really fits in with Kierkegaards view that we must do the absurd and believe the unbelievable. Judas knew he would have to betray Jesus, but through the action of betrayal he knew he would become a.)the disciple that helped Jesus' mission culminate or b.) never have to be without Jesus because of teh betrayal. Really a provocative read, if you ever have ages of time to read a bit of theology. Also, it's where Kierkegaard really introduced the idea of a "leap of faith."

[Soxy]

To me that really underminds a key idea that Jesus was abandonded and alone at the end, which this would be saying that the apostle/s were willing participants.  I think if this Gospel truely comes from Judas or someone sympathic to him, it would stand to reason that they would soften his role, or even make it more noble here.  To me it doesn't fit in the big picture of the crucifiction.

I think the degree of "aloneness" at the time of his death really depends on which Gospel you're reading. In John Jesus is quite triumphant. In Gethsemene he even scoffs while praying, "Should I ask for this cup to be removed?" Which, I think, shows some cross-talk between the gospels and John's author taking a pot-shot at the others, saying that Jesus would never be defeated even at the crucifixtion.

 

I think it's Mark, though, (maybe Matthew too), where Jesus' last words are "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?" I think it's those two gospels people usually conjure up when thinking about the crucifixtion, but John is really different in tone.

[southsider2k5]

I have not read that... The one thing I did hear that I can't place right now is one of the lost gospels also speaks about the fates of those in hell. Some to the effect of the exsistance of hell kind of puts a kink in the whole eternal forgiveness thing, and in the ultimate act of forgiveness, someone in heaven asks for the forgiveness of the damned and receives it, proving God's complete Mercy. I wish I could remember where it was from, but I was watching the History Channel show about Hell when I heard it. I was half paying attention and totally missed where it came from, but the concept really awestruck me for a while... to be honest it has been something I have been thinking about ever since I heard it, to try to figure how it fits in for me personally, and if it even makes complete sense.

 

My point is that a concept like that would allow for the forgiveness of a guy like Judas.

 

Also without having the Judas story in front of me, we don't know that he could very well have prayed for forgiveness after the betrayal, and by all accounts he would have received it. Judas could very well be at the right hand of the Father for all we know, because I don't remember seeing anywhere what the rest of his life held for him, and what his actions and beliefs were like after the betrayal.

[southsider2k5]

I think the degree of "aloneness" at the time of his death really depends on which Gospel you're reading. In John Jesus is quite triumphant. In Gethsemene he even scoffs while praying, "Should I ask for this cup to be removed?" Which, I think, shows some cross-talk between the gospels and John's author taking a pot-shot at the others, saying that Jesus would never be defeated even at the crucifixtion.

 

I think it's Mark, though, (maybe Matthew too), where Jesus' last words are "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?" I think it's those two gospels people usually conjure up when thinking about the crucifixtion, but John is really different in tone.

 

Maybe it is the years of Lutheran School upbringing that focused on the more bitter and acrid crucifiction march that colored my view of those events... Very interesting points though.

[Soxy]

Maybe it is the years of Lutheran School upbringing that focused on the more bitter and acrid crucifiction march that colored my view of those events...  Very interesting points though.

I always thought the same thing, never really read all the accounts separately until college, but really changed the way I look at faith. They never read from John on Good Friday, it's always the my god, my god one.

 

One of my favorite investments was a Gospel parallel, you can pick them up pretty cheaply (example, but not including john) and they're just invaluable at looking at the many facets of Jesus. I think really good for people that want to see what's different in each of the stories even within the canonical gospels.

 

I'm not going to lie: having intelligent, well-informed discussions (like this one!) about religion are what I miss most about St. Olaf. *sigh*

Edited April 6, 2006 by Soxy

[southsider2k5]

I hear you! Its hard to find people to have these kind of discussions with. If you are with a group of Christians it hard not to come off as a complete conspiratalist nutjob, and if you talk to secular people, they don't want to talk about biblical concepts, let alone something that far out of the mainstream.

 

Thanks for getting me thinking today

[Soxy]

lol, anytime you want to have a religious wack-o thread I'm in. Heresy is my specialty.

[southsider2k5]

lol, anytime you want to have a religious wack-o thread I'm in. Heresy is my specialty.

 

Nice to know I'll remember that next time I across something interesting

[Milkman delivers]

Didn't Judas commit suicide soon after the betrayal? And if so, why did he do it if he conspired with Jesus on it?

 

(That might be covered in the link, but I don't have the time to read it right now.)

[Soxy]

Didn't Judas commit suicide soon after the betrayal?  And if so, why did he do it if he conspired with Jesus on it?

 

(That might be covered in the link, but I don't have the time to read it right now.)

I'll have to check that out, but I feel like it's only in one (maybe two) of the gospels. Either John or Matthew. . .

[kapkomet]

This one is fun. I'll add more later.

[southsider2k5]

Story of the movement of the manuscript after its discovery. Damn, I can't wait for the manuscript to come out in book form. Also is a bummer I don't have the NGM channel to watch the special about this Sunday nite.

 

http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/gospel/feature.html

[FlaSoxxJim]

Some of the pages ages of the document are going to be on display at the National Geographic building in DC starting today. Pretty cool.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060406/ts_nm/...gion_judas_dc_2

 

My 2 cents on Judas: Even growing up as a devout Catholic, I always had the viewpoint that Judas got the cosmic shaft because he was cast to play a role that had to be played for the larger evvents to unfold. Sort of the Biblical equivalent of Rosenkrantz and Gildernstern. I couldn't help but question the concept of free will when Event A had to happen in order to set successive events in motion. The notion that Jesus literally told Judas to turn him in certainly wouldn't sit well with people who believe in the official NT canon;. But I guess I always had an interpretation that was only slightly removed from that, in which God placed the burden on Judas to set these events in motion even if it wasn't literally spelled out to him by Jesus.

[Heads22]

Wait, I thought JUGGS said we didn't allow a religous POV here?

[southsider2k5]

Wait, I thought JUGGS said we didn't allow a religous POV here?

 

Quiet you idiot, this is all a part of the grand conspiracy to draw out Christians then ban them all!

[Soxy]

Some of the pages ages of the document are going to be on display at the National Geographic building in DC starting today.  Pretty cool.

That actually might be worth the 5 hour drive. . .