It would be different if it was Mexico

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Dude you have to turn everything into a f***in headache.  You said it was easy to immigrate to mexico.  I just pointed out an article saying otherwise and you in turn start with your needling...  Are you suggesting this?  Should we do this?  Do you think that?  Blah blah blah.  Same s*** with you everytime.  Someone makes a comment and you start asking all these hypothetical questoins..."what if this...what if that"  They answer and you have more "how about if this...are you saying we should do that."  They answer and guess what...you have more hypothetical bulls***.  It's like you have a posting strategy or something.  Get the person to keep having to defend themselves against your ignorant suggestions instead of making their own points.  Whatever...Been down that road before.  This ain't a Q&A.

 

I was simply f***ing saying that if I was an illegal mexican wondering what the big hooppla was about, I can look at my own country and say ...oh dam..we have our own policies as well.  It isn't as easy as just crossing a border here either.

 

lol...

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Nothing positive comes of it.

 

Tell that to the large numbers of companies and such who profit from the work of immigrants. I bet they'll consider their gains a positive.

 

Which is why I'm in favor of a guest worker program along with the opportunity to earn citizenship for those deserving folks...

[southsideirish71]

Tell that to the large numbers of companies and such who profit from the work of immigrants.  I bet they'll consider their gains a positive.

 

Which is why I'm in favor of a guest worker program along with the opportunity to earn citizenship for those deserving folks...

 

As I always like to play devils advocate sleepy. I have to pose the following to you.

 

Say we establish a new guest workers program, with an aggressive citizenship path. There will still be a limit on how many people that will support. If this has some sort of clemency attached to it, it will put a mass invasion of people who want to be grandfathered into this rule. I mean how do you tell if this guy was here before or not, all illegals have no port of entry documentation. Even with this there will be people who will be on the outside looking in. This is inevitable. There will also be a group of people who dont want to be put on a waiting list for guest worker visas and will want to cross over illegally, in hopes of getting a future clemency as we already bent to the demands of politcally pressure. These people will be violating the law just like before and we will still have illegal immigrants in the US. Its just the nature of supply and demand.

 

What do you think we should do about illegal immigration after the guest worker program, how aggresive should our border security programs be?

 

 

IMO any guest worker program has to be mixed with a rock solid border security program. I am all for giving people a chance at the american dream. I however want to make sure that our borders dont become swiss cheese on those who think that because we relented once, that just a some protests and political pressure will make it all go away again. There will be lmits on the guest worker visas, that is just part of the game. Guest workers should also go through a screening process, violent criminals should not be given the same free pass that good hard working immigrants should get. This will take time and resources and also cooperation with foreign governments and interpol. There will also have to be some sort of taxation that will have to take place on wages earned. This will have a two fold affect, there will be those companies who will still reach out to illegal immigrants as the new wage will hit into their profits, and as the salary will rise, the ammount of jobs will be less due to financial restraint by those companies who wish to work legally. This will still create an environment for illegal immigrants and their employment by business.

 

I think that guest worker programs are a good way to go, but there are a lot of other issues that we need to streamline and work through to make this process not only work, but make our borders safer and more secure.

Edited April 11, 2006 by southsideirish71

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Ah, yes, excellent point. I agree and am all for tougher security, just not a huge, imposing, expensive wall that serves to completely block us from a neighboring country.

[NorthSideSox72]

Ah, yes, excellent point.  I agree and am all for tougher security, just not a huge, imposing, expensive wall that serves to completely block us from a neighboring country.

Effective border security can be achieved without a physical wall. A wall would not only be incredibly expensive and symbolically hateful, it would cause an environmental disaster.

 

Instead, I'd suggest that technology is our best bet. Motion sensors, cameras, aircraft with FLIR, patrols with military-style sighting equipment, satelites... all these can be used to target and address any attempts at illegal border crossings. And while I clearly do not have the numbers available, it seems to me it would be a lot less expensive than a giant wall running thousands of miles.

[Soxbadger]

There is a great irony that today we sit at a fork in the road, where ex-immigrants are trying to make it harder for future immigrants.

 

No matter how high and mighty I may become, I will never forget that if it were not for the leniant immigration policies of the 19th and 20th century, my family may never have had the chance to come here.

 

So give us your tired, your hungry, your poor, because it is the American way to accept them. Let them take jobs, let them compete, because that is American. It is only those who are lazy, those who are drains on society that fear the immigrants.

 

Because can an immigrant that can not speak my language, that has not gone to high school, college, etc, really compete for my job?

 

The answer is no, and the reality is not one illegal immigrant has ever taken a job that I have wanted.

 

They take jobs from those who are no longer deserving, because they will work harder and for less. Its time to stop crying and asking for a bigger govt to come and protect us.

[Texsox]

If we decide to pay billions of dollars to increase our border security, where will the money come from? Another massive tax cut? Soon to have all this money, we'll have to skip paying taxes totally for a year.

 

What problem are we actually trying to solve with this increased expense? We are chasing the boogey man. Read the first post in this thread. They are allowing trucks with no inspection drive right in. And all these posts later, we are trying to link immigration to security.

[jasonxctf]

There is a great irony that today we sit at a fork in the road, where ex-immigrants are trying to make it harder for future immigrants.

 

No matter how high and mighty I may become, I will never forget that if it were not for the leniant immigration policies of the 19th and 20th century, my family may never have had the chance to come here.

 

So give us your tired, your hungry, your poor, because it is the American way to accept them. Let them take jobs, let them compete, because that is American. It is only those who are lazy, those who are drains on society that fear the immigrants.

 

Because can an immigrant that can not speak my language, that has not gone to high school, college, etc, really compete for my job?

 

The answer is no, and the reality is not one illegal immigrant has ever taken a job that I have wanted.

 

They take jobs from those who are no longer deserving, because they will work harder and for less. Its time to stop crying and asking for a bigger govt to come and protect us.

 

 

[FlaSoxxJim]

Give me your hungry, your tired your poor I’ll piss on ’em

That’s what the Statue of Bigotry says

Your poor huddled masses, let’s club ’em to death

And get it over with and just dump ’em on the boulevard

 

--Lou Reed, Dirty Boulevard (1989)

[Texsox]

There is a great irony that today we sit at a fork in the road, where ex-immigrants are trying to make it harder for future immigrants.

 

No matter how high and mighty I may become, I will never forget that if it were not for the leniant immigration policies of the 19th and 20th century, my family may never have had the chance to come here.

 

So give us your tired, your hungry, your poor, because it is the American way to accept them. Let them take jobs, let them compete, because that is American. It is only those who are lazy, those who are drains on society that fear the immigrants.

 

Because can an immigrant that can not speak my language, that has not gone to high school, college, etc, really compete for my job?

 

The answer is no, and the reality is not one illegal immigrant has ever taken a job that I have wanted.

 

They take jobs from those who are no longer deserving, because they will work harder and for less. Its time to stop crying and asking for a bigger govt to come and protect us.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

There is a great irony that today we sit at a fork in the road, where ex-immigrants are trying to make it harder for future immigrants.

 

No matter how high and mighty I may become, I will never forget that if it were not for the leniant immigration policies of the 19th and 20th century, my family may never have had the chance to come here.

 

So give us your tired, your hungry, your poor, because it is the American way to accept them. Let them take jobs, let them compete, because that is American. It is only those who are lazy, those who are drains on society that fear the immigrants.

 

Because can an immigrant that can not speak my language, that has not gone to high school, college, etc, really compete for my job?

 

The answer is no, and the reality is not one illegal immigrant has ever taken a job that I have wanted.

 

They take jobs from those who are no longer deserving, because they will work harder and for less. Its time to stop crying and asking for a bigger govt to come and protect us.

Very nice post, sir.

 

But I would contend that I am not trying to make it harder for immigrants - I am trying to make it easier. Because someone who sneaks across a border (any of our borders) illegally and undocumented is not an immigrant - they are a trespasser.

 

More visas? Great. Guest worker program? Excellent. Allowing people to enter our country completely unknown to us? Not acceptable.

[southsideirish71]

There is a great irony that today we sit at a fork in the road, where ex-immigrants are trying to make it harder for future immigrants.

 

No matter how high and mighty I may become, I will never forget that if it were not for the leniant immigration policies of the 19th and 20th century, my family may never have had the chance to come here.

 

So give us your tired, your hungry, your poor, because it is the American way to accept them. Let them take jobs, let them compete, because that is American. It is only those who are lazy, those who are drains on society that fear the immigrants.

 

Because can an immigrant that can not speak my language, that has not gone to high school, college, etc, really compete for my job?

 

The answer is no, and the reality is not one illegal immigrant has ever taken a job that I have wanted.

 

They take jobs from those who are no longer deserving, because they will work harder and for less. Its time to stop crying and asking for a bigger govt to come and protect us.

 

As an ex-immigrant I am very much in favor of giving those a shot at the american dream. However you cannot just have open borders without any checks and balances. No country no matter how open and free can take on a endless amount of people who will sit undocumented underneath the veil of society. I am for a guest worker program. But even that will have limits. And when the lmits for the guest worker program are reached we will still have those who decide to come here illegally. I know you dont want to pick tomatoes, and the illegal worker does that for a very small wage. But let me paint you another picture. Here is the guy that is illegal that worries me, and its not the terrorist. Its the MS-13 gang member who is ex el-savadorian army who moves through your neighborhood without any documentation. MS-13 is one of the most organized gangs and probably one of the most dangerous. This is one of the gangs that scares the FBI and your local law enforcment the most. Its not because of the color of the gang members skin. its because it contains a lot of ex-military/ex-paramilitary who have a bit more knowlege of warfare than you average suburban cop. its the guy who slips in and out of our country. its also the Russian mobster, the IRA gunman, the Colombian cartel, the other list of illegal immigrants who are exploiting the weak borders of our country to exploit people. Its the people who make money on the trafficking, the cattle cars, the fake passports who are linked to organized crime. That is what I am worried about. Not the farmer who has come here for the better life. This is why I am worried. Not just the terrorists. We need to know who is in this country, we need as many of them accounted for. I can tell you, that in the 80s a lot of money was filtering back unchecked to the IRA from undocumented Irish workers. This is not a debate about immigrants, I am all for immigrants and their right to come here and work and find a better life. This is a story about security and sovereignty.

[southsideirish71]

If we decide to pay billions of dollars to increase our border security, where will the money come from? Another massive tax cut? Soon to have all this money, we'll have to skip paying taxes totally for a year.

 

What problem are we actually trying to solve with this increased expense? We are chasing the boogey man. Read the first post in this thread. They are allowing trucks with no inspection drive right in. And all these posts later, we are trying to link immigration to security.

 

Tex they shouldnt be allowing trucks unchecked on either border. I want the same enforcement on both borders, I also want them to check cargo coming in our ports. Our security is going to catch us sooner or later. We act like the country is secure because we go through a few more security checkpoints on the way to our plane, but that is just 1 part of our security picture.

[Rex Kickass]

The problem is that for the last thirty years, the US has had an immigration policy which encouraged the illegal immigration that we're fighting now. The reason? We allowed businesses to draw illegal workers in - and those are the ones who should be punished. I realize that the people who cross over illegally are breaking a law. But at the same time, if these people have been living responsibly and being good neighbors in the community in which they live, I see no reason to punish people to the point of uprooting someone from their home of several years or even decades. Make them pay a fine, sure - but deportation does not have to be the only method of punishment.

[Soxbadger]

Southsider,

 

I do not think that is the problem the current bill is addressing. If you are worried about highly sophisticated personell entering the US, no amount of border patrol is going to stop them.

 

Russian mobsters, IRA members, etc have funding. When you have funding, you can fabricate the necessary items to cross into the United States and no amount of security in the world is going to stop it.

 

Im not suggesting to just open the doors and let everyone in with out keeping tabs. Im suggesting that we let everyone in, and the ones we let in we keep track of. That way it is easier for the US to be on the look out for the terrorists, instead of just the people who want to enter the country.

 

In the end, I guess I try and err on the side of allowing people in. I know that is dangerous, but that is what I feel America stands for. It is dangerous that our criminal system is "Guilty until innocent" or that the burden of proof is "beyond a reasonable doubt", but I am of the opinion our country was founded that way because it is better to let 100 criminals go free than wrongly convict 1 person.

 

Its not easy to walk the path of the United States, the greater part of world history has been dominated by societies that were far different than our own.

[NorthSideSox72]

The problem is that for the last thirty years, the US has had an immigration policy which encouraged the illegal immigration that we're fighting now. The reason? We allowed businesses to draw illegal workers in - and those are the ones who should be punished. I realize that the people who cross over illegally are breaking a law. But at the same time, if these people have been living responsibly and being good neighbors in the community in which they live, I see no reason to punish people to the point of uprooting someone from their home of several years or even decades. Make them pay a fine, sure - but deportation does not have to be the only method of punishment.

That is certainly part and parcel - enforcement needs to also be directed at companies and individuals already patriated. That would decrease demand for illegal workers.

[NorthSideSox72]

Southsider,

 

I do not think that is the problem the current bill is addressing. If you are worried about highly sophisticated personell entering the US, no amount of border patrol is going to stop them.

 

Russian mobsters, IRA members, etc have funding. When you have funding, you can fabricate the necessary items to cross into the United States and no amount of security in the world is going to stop it.

 

Im not suggesting to just open the doors and let everyone in with out keeping tabs. Im suggesting that we let everyone in, and the ones we let in we keep track of. That way it is easier for the US to be on the look out for the terrorists, instead of just the people who want to enter the country.

 

In the end, I guess I try and err on the side of allowing people in. I know that is dangerous, but that is what I feel America stands for. It is dangerous that our criminal system is "Guilty until innocent" or that the burden of proof is "beyond a reasonable doubt", but I am of the opinion our country was founded that way because it is better to let 100 criminals go free than wrongly convict 1 person.

 

Its not easy to walk the path of the United States, the greater part of world history has been dominated by societies that were far different than our own.

While I disagree with your conclusion, you make some excellent points.

[Texsox]

I'm not certain what conclusions to draw here but Israel has about the most secure borders and the most terrorism. We have about the least secure and also little terrorism. I'm not convinced there is a cause and effect relationship, but I do believe no amount of securing our border will insulate us from terrorism.

[Rex Kickass]

That is certainly part and parcel - enforcement needs to also be directed at companies and individuals already patriated.  That would decrease demand for illegal workers.

 

It's sort of like the war on drugs. You don't solve it by going after the user. Because there will always be another user popping up. You go after the supply, because when that dries up - the demand will too, eventually.

 

You don't go after the individual immigrant. Go after the people that bring them in illegally and dangerously. Go after the people that hire them and provide the supply of black market jobs that they're coming here to have. Then the demand for non existent jobs dries up.