GOP Backing Away From Tough Immigration

[Texsox]

What part of Illegal alien am I missing, try going all around Mexico and stay after 60 days you will be deported, try as an illegal in Mexico to hold a rally you can't as stated in there constitution and even If you gain citizenship you can be deported anytime no questions asked as stated in there constitution, on Mexico southern border they use the military so illegals do not get in. Mexico wants US to give all things to illegals but in Mexico they want it the other way.

 

Yes, isn't it wonderful to live in a developed, world superpower, instead of a 3rd world country? Are you suggesting that Mexico's plan is somehow better than ours? I believe comparing ourselves to a third world country is silly. We beat Mexico in so many areas. Our laws are our laws, their laws are their laws. Plus, I have worked in Mexico and can say from first hand experience, we do not want to be Mexico, let's set out goals higher.

 

If we start to base out laws on the laws of other coutries would that mean we would have to accept every immigrant from some country because they agreed to accept an unlimited amount of Americans?

 

Couple things you are missing. Mexico will issue FM3s for just about anyone to come work in their country, This annual pass costs about $100, is very easy to apply for, you don't even have to speak Spanish. You can then live anywhere in the country. It is renewable for an unlimited number of times. If you desire a shorter work period, they have an FMN which is available at the border and costs about $20. That is a 30 day work visa with the same ability to move around anywhere in the country.

[Soxfest]

Yes, isn't it wonderful to live in a developed, world superpower, instead of a 3rd world country? Are you suggesting that Mexico's plan is somehow better than ours? I believe comparing ourselves to a third world country is silly. We beat Mexico in so many areas. Our laws are our laws, their laws are their laws. Plus, I have worked in Mexico and can say from first hand experience, we do not want to be Mexico, let's set out goals higher.

 

If we start to base out laws on the laws of other coutries would that mean we would have to accept every immigrant from some country because they agreed to accept an unlimited amount of Americans?

 

Couple things you are missing. Mexico will issue FM3s for just about anyone to come work in their country, This annual pass costs about $100, is very easy to apply for, you don't even have to speak Spanish. You can then live anywhere in the country. It is renewable for an unlimited number of times. If you desire a shorter work period, they have an FMN which is available at the border and costs about $20. That is a 30 day work visa with the same ability to move around anywhere in the country.

 

 

I looking at it overall not just the worker permit issue, I am not down on workers they are just trying to make a living just stating overall immigration differences between the 2 countries and how V.Fox wants it ALL 1 way.

Edited April 17, 2006 by Soxfest

[Texsox]

I looking at it overall not just the worker permit issue, I am not down on workers they are just trying to make a living just stating overall immigration differences between the 2 countries and how V.Fox wants it ALL 1 way.

 

I understan\ that there are differences in the laws and I don't see how that should effect our laws. If Mexico changed their laws and said, we'll let everyone in, now you *have* to, we'd immediately reject that argument.

[YASNY]

I understan\ that there are differences in the laws and I don't see how that should effect our laws. If Mexico changed their laws and said, we'll let everyone in, now you *have* to, we'd immediately reject that argument.

 

Still, you have to admit that there is certain hipocrasy to Fox's stance our immigration policies as opposed to his own policies.

[kapkomet]

Why do people keep yelling and screaming and debating the issue but yet keep ignoring one single fact? ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL. Why does that FACT not bother people?

 

If they come here LEGALLY, FINE!!!

 

Oh, wait, then the paying under the table can't happen, wages get raised, etc. Oh, the very same people who b**** and fight and piss and moan that the minumum wage is too low and they want to "PROTECT THE WORKERS" - yet, it's ok for the "under the table" s*** for ILLEGAL aliens? You can't have it both ways.

[Texsox]

Still, you have to admit that there is certain hipocrasy to Fox's stance our immigration policies as opposed to his own policies.

 

These are two very different countries, with two very different concerns. We happen to need these workers, they have millions of poor people without jobs. One country has excess workers and no jobs, the other has jobs and not enough workers. It would seem obvious that both countries would have different laws regarding immigration. And there are hypocrasies in laws everywhere. Mexico will trade with Cuba, but will not allow many Cubans to imigrate. The US will not trade with Cuba, but any Cuba who touches the beach, is allowed to stay. We accept everyone from a country we consider an enemy, but want to restrict those from a partner and ally. Does that make sense?

 

Kap, you are correct, they are illegal. The issue is, how badly do we want to punish ourselves in the process of punishing them? Shall we invest billions in rounding them all up and deporting them? After all that is the current law. Let's enforce the law. Who cares what that does to out agriculture industries, we can always buy more food from overseas. Who cares how many businesses go under, after all these people are here illegally and that's the law.

 

Of course, we both know that will not happen. So we start with the premise we will ignore the current law and figure out what to do with all these law breakers. Why should we punish ourselves and weaken our countries security by destroying our agriculture industry?

 

So Kap you can't have it both ways, you must be in favor of rounding them up at any cost and deporting them because " ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL. "

[YASNY]

These are two very different countries, with two very different concerns. We happen to need these workers, they have millions of poor people without jobs. One country has excess workers and no jobs, the other has jobs and not enough workers. It would seem obvious that both countries would have different laws regarding immigration. And there are hypocrasies in laws everywhere. Mexico will trade with Cuba, but will not allow many Cubans to imigrate. The US will not trade with Cuba, but any Cuba who touches the beach, is allowed to stay. We accept everyone from a country we consider an enemy, but want to restrict those from a partner and ally. Does that make sense?

 

Kap, you are correct, they are illegal. The issue is, how badly do we want to punish ourselves in the process of punishing them? Shall we invest billions in rounding them all up and deporting them? After all that is the current law. Let's enforce the law. Who cares what that does to out agriculture industries, we can always buy more food from overseas. Who cares how many businesses go under, after all these people are here illegally and that's the law.

 

Of course, we both know that will not happen. So we start with the premise we will ignore the current law and figure out what to do with all these law breakers.  Why should we punish ourselves and weaken our countries security by destroying our agriculture industry?

 

So Kap you can't have it both ways, you must be in favor of rounding them up at any cost and deporting them because " ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL. "

 

He's being a hypocrit. Does that make sense?

[southsider2k5]

These are two very different countries, with two very different concerns. We happen to need these workers, they have millions of poor people without jobs. One country has excess workers and no jobs, the other has jobs and not enough workers. It would seem obvious that both countries would have different laws regarding immigration. And there are hypocrasies in laws everywhere. Mexico will trade with Cuba, but will not allow many Cubans to imigrate. The US will not trade with Cuba, but any Cuba who touches the beach, is allowed to stay. We accept everyone from a country we consider an enemy, but want to restrict those from a partner and ally. Does that make sense?

 

Kap, you are correct, they are illegal. The issue is, how badly do we want to punish ourselves in the process of punishing them? Shall we invest billions in rounding them all up and deporting them? After all that is the current law. Let's enforce the law. Who cares what that does to out agriculture industries, we can always buy more food from overseas. Who cares how many businesses go under, after all these people are here illegally and that's the law.

 

Of course, we both know that will not happen. So we start with the premise we will ignore the current law and figure out what to do with all these law breakers.  Why should we punish ourselves and weaken our countries security by destroying our agriculture industry?

 

So Kap you can't have it both ways, you must be in favor of rounding them up at any cost and deporting them because " ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL. "

 

Um, I hate to break it to you, again, but passing the guest worker program will have the same effect on agricultural industries.

[kapkomet]

Kap, you are correct, they are illegal. The issue is, how badly do we want to punish ourselves in the process of punishing them? Shall we invest billions in rounding them all up and deporting them? After all that is the current law. Let's enforce the law. Who cares what that does to out agriculture industries, we can always buy more food from overseas. Who cares how many businesses go under, after all these people are here illegally and that's the law.

 

Of course, we both know that will not happen. So we start with the premise we will ignore the current law and figure out what to do with all these law breakers.  Why should we punish ourselves and weaken our countries security by destroying our agriculture industry?

 

So Kap you can't have it both ways, you must be in favor of rounding them up at any cost and deporting them because " ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL. "

It wouldn't cost that much. And yea, go back home, until a legal means can be found, then come back, and be welcomed with open arms. Gee, when they come back, they'd make EVEN MORE then now... because our minimum wage laws would actually be enforced at that point.

 

It was a direct slap in the face 20 years ago when Reagan did it, and it's a direct slap in the face now for those who followed the law and came here legally.

 

My boss, who is a director, is here on a work visa. She's going through the citizen process now, and I support her. She's doing it the "right way". Her husband lost his visa through a technicality and had to go back home to Kenya. You don't think it's hard for them? I'm sure it is. But they are going about the LEGAL way of getting here and staying here. I think it's a cold slap in the face for people like her who are doing it the right way to just "legalize whoever is here".

 

You know what? These people don't mean a damn thing to these politicians. They have turned a blind eye to it for years. Until someone convinced them that these people are "future votes"... they didn't care. Furthermore, if it means so much to these people, why is it that I know PERSONALLY of cases which many of the "illegals" didn't even care enough to participate in their own "protests"? This comes directly from their family members who wanted to "support" their illegal brothers and sisters in these marches, but the illegals didn't care. I wonder why that is?

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Do you people advocating deporting 12 million plus people realize how logistically ridiculous that is?

 

A more common sense approach would be much better.

[Texsox]

Um, I hate to break it to you, again, but passing the guest worker program will have the same effect on agricultural industries.

 

The same effect as deporting the trained, willing, workers and hoping to replace them? I don't think so.

 

The reason illegals did not protest, is the same as why they do not report crimes against them, they do not want to be discovered and deported.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

It wouldn't cost that much.

 

lol...

 

Furthermore, if it means so much to these people, why is it that I know PERSONALLY of cases which many of the "illegals" didn't even care enough to participate in their own "protests"?  This comes directly from their family members who wanted to "support" their illegal brothers and sisters in these marches, but the illegals didn't care.  I wonder why that is?

 

Uh, so what?

 

Some had to work. Some fear being arrested and sent away. Some probably don't give a s*** about protests.

 

Expecting 100% of illegal immigrants to show up is just silly...

[Balta1701]

It wouldn't cost that much. 

Estimates run from something like $200-$250 billion, over about 5 years, to round all of them up and send them off.

[kapkomet]

Do you people advocating deporting 12 million plus people realize how logistically ridiculous that is?   

 

A more common sense approach would be much better.

Common sense to you = amnesty. And it's wrong.

[kapkomet]

Estimates run from something like $200-$250 billion, over about 5 years, to round all of them up and send them off.

No. That's a scare number.

[kapkomet]

lol...

Uh, so what?

 

Some had to work.  Some fear being arrested and sent away.  Some probably don't give a s*** about protests.

 

Expecting 100% of illegal immigrants to show up is just silly...

Who said 100%? From the small sample size I have talked to, most didn't give a s***, and it was just a protest to protest and pretty much nothing more.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Common sense to you = amnesty.  And it's wrong.

 

lol

 

I've never stated that.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

No.  That's a scare number.

 

Wait, wait...could you please give us the real number?

[kapkomet]

Wait, wait...could you please give us the real number?

Wait, wait, I could pull any number out of my ass and quote it as "real".

[kapkomet]

lol

 

I've never stated that.

ok, then, Enstien of the "immagration issue", what's your solution?

 

ANY bill that legalizes or puts these people on the path to citizenship is amnesty. They are being rewarded for entering this country illegally.

 

That's pretty cut and dried.

[southsider2k5]

The same effect as deporting the trained, willing, workers and hoping to replace them? I don't think so.

 

The reason illegals did not protest, is the same as why they do not report crimes against them, they do not want to be discovered and deported.

 

In an economic sense it is pretty close actually... There will be wage inflation, bankruptcies, higher prices, farms getting shutdown, more food imports, and pretty much everything you sited in your posts.

 

In fact it could even have the effect of having more Americans hired at these jobs if they were forced to pay legal wages for this stuff, instead of hiring illegals at illegal wages. Remember the higher the wage, the higher the labor supply willing to work at those prices. If some of these companies in these business were forced to pay the wages they should have been paying all along, some of the new supply of labor willing to work would almost definately have to be some portion of legal residents who couldn't afford to work for sub-minimum wages.

[YASNY]

Estimates run from something like $200-$250 billion, over about 5 years, to round all of them up and send them off.

 

We could build a wall for that.

[southsider2k5]

Estimates run from something like $200-$250 billion, over about 5 years, to round all of them up and send them off.

 

Out of curiousity has anyone done a study for how much it would cost to add 12 million people to our social entitlement programs and the subtraction from the tax base it would result in? Not to mention adding in the lost purchasing power from the resulting wage inflation price increases for industries that take up a higher percentage of income of the poor, such as food stuffs?

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Out of curiousity has anyone done a study for how much it would cost to add 12 million people to our social entitlement programs and the subtraction from the tax base it would result in?  Not to mention adding in the lost purchasing power from the resulting wage inflation price increases for industries that take up a higher percentage of income of the poor, such as food stuffs?

 

Do you think we'd be paying less taxes if there were no illegal immigrants?

 

If so, how much?

[Balta1701]

Out of curiousity has anyone done a study for how much it would cost to add 12 million people to our social entitlement programs and the subtraction from the tax base it would result in?  Not to mention adding in the lost purchasing power from the resulting wage inflation price increases for industries that take up a higher percentage of income of the poor, such as food stuffs?

Well, presumably, if this was done as some sort of a "Guest worker" program, they wouldn't necessarily be winding up gathering huge amounts of support from social programs like unemployment or welfare, because they'd be "Working".

 

And of course, on top of the inflationary pressure on the cheapest goods, there's the other side of the token that the "Guest workers" will also be purchasing additional goods, which would drive profits/job creation higher.

 

If nothing else, let me say this: through the cowardice of our elected officials and the idiocy of our immigration laws, we've put ourselves into as bad of a situation as we could possibly be, and if nothing is done, it's going to just keep getting worse. In my opinion, the worst attempted fix for this mess is a gigantic, hugely expensive, massively disrupting deportation.

 

A much better method would be to realize that this situation exists not because of the people looking for jobs, but instead because of the inadequate laws, and we should find a method of addressing the problem in a forward looking manner, not a backwards looking one. If we obsess over "These people broke the law and must be punished!", we're just going to wind up making the future worse.

 

There are going to be costs associated with whatever choice we make, so we might as well try to find the best option and just deal with the costs as they ahppen.