GOP Backing Away From Tough Immigration

[NorthSideSox72]

I've posted on this topic many times in here, and I'll reiterate my points on why a serious wall/fence like that is a huge mistake...

 

1) Technology is always cheaper than brick and mortar.  Example: traffic congestion.  Over and over again, its found to be better to use traffic control systems (includes cameras, controllable lanes, etc.) to reduce congestion than adding more lanes, and for cheaper.  In this case, the technology would include cameras, motion sensors, small well-equiped teams with the best military vision equipment, helicopters and planes with FLIR, etc.  Those are being used only VERY sparsely right now.  Those will be more effective and cheaper than a wall.

 

2) A wall or fence like that is an environmental disaster.  For one thing, every species of animal that exists across that boundary bigger than an ant will effectively be split into two distinct populations.  And any species that have been pushed across one way or the other and are trying to recover their range will be thwarted.  Stilted ecosystems won't be able to recover, plant species will be effected, and suddenly you have major flooding and dust storm problems in the southwest (more so than now).

 

3) The fence is still going to be penetrated if you don't have personnel in place for detection and interception, and people are expensive.  That is why the use of technology, which can be used to TARGET the areas for response and use fewer personnel, is the better solution.

 

There are other reasons, but those are the big ones for now.

 

Just thought of two more reasons, smaller ones admitedly...

 

4) The motion sensors and cameras could have multiple uses - including studying wildlife and weather. Those studies could use that same data you gathered to some degree, without having to generate it on their own.

 

5) The cultural factor. How do you think people here would take that, who are recent immigrants from ANY country? Looks pretty bad to them. The technological approach doesn't have the same negative picture, but is just as effective (or more so). Why agitate people further if it isnt necessary to do so?

[Balta1701]

Im sure you could slice off 5 billion from the defense budget to fund this project.  Right now I think a physical border to keep invaders out is a lot better use of funds than a handful of F-22's that can be put off 1 year.

I would have said the same thing about rebuilding the Levees around NOLA, but well, we gots to cut taxes, and Iraq's costing $10 billion a week now.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I've posted on this topic many times in here, and I'll reiterate my points on why a serious wall/fence like that is a huge mistake...

 

1) Technology is always cheaper than brick and mortar.  Example: traffic congestion.  Over and over again, its found to be better to use traffic control systems (includes cameras, controllable lanes, etc.) to reduce congestion than adding more lanes, and for cheaper.  In this case, the technology would include cameras, motion sensors, small well-equiped teams with the best military vision equipment, helicopters and planes with FLIR, etc.  Those are being used only VERY sparsely right now.  Those will be more effective and cheaper than a wall.

 

Agree but that needs to be beefed up anyway. Emplacing a physical border would allow border enforcement personnel to redeploy to right on the border from the more inland locations that some of them now patrol.

 

2) A wall or fence like that is an environmental disaster.  For one thing, every species of animal that exists across that boundary bigger than an ant will effectively be split into two distinct populations.  And any species that have been pushed across one way or the other and are trying to recover their range will be thwarted.  Stilted ecosystems won't be able to recover, plant species will be effected, and suddenly you have major flooding and dust storm problems in the southwest (more so than now).

 

I think that's a little extreme of an assessment, especially considering that most of the border region is a desert wasteland.

 

3) The fence is still going to be penetrated if you don't have personnel in place for detection and interception, and people are expensive.  That is why the use of technology, which can be used to TARGET the areas for response and use fewer personnel, is the better solution.

 

There are other reasons, but those are the big ones for now.

 

As with the 1st point. Emplacing a physical border allows you to re-deploy people down to the line as opposed to inland areas. That combined with some more funding for re-enforcements and that solves that issue.

 

You can also leave open area's like mountainous regions. If a bunch of illegals make it over a mountain then you can have a chopper snag em up on the far side and reward them for their efforts with a trip to the pokey and a one way ride back.

[Rex Kickass]

Germany did something like that in 1961.

 

Just sayin.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I would have said the same thing about rebuilding the Levees around NOLA, but well, we gots to cut taxes, and Iraq's costing $10 billion a week now.

 

 

You saying we're spending 520 billion dollars annually on Iraq? Methinks that estimate is a touch high. I had read where the burn rate over there is more on the order of 4 billion a month. That seems far more realistic, especially based on the amount requested for Iraq and Afghanistan every year.

 

As for cutting taxes. We've been over this ground before dude. Revenues are still rising thanks to the booming economy.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Germany did something like that in 1961.

 

Just sayin.

 

 

EAST Germany put up the Berlin wall to keep people from leaving an oppressive communist regime.

 

The purpose of this is to stop people from invading our country which, by the way, is a wholly legitimate purpose.

[Rex Kickass]

Actually, the official line from East Germany was to keep Westerners out.

 

But having had a family separated by a similar wall, I tend not to like them.

[Balta1701]

You saying we're spending 520 billion dollars annually on Iraq?  Methinks that estimate is a touch high.  I had read where the burn rate over there is more on the order of 4 billion a month.  That seems far more realistic, especially based on the amount requested for Iraq and Afghanistan every year.

 

As for cutting taxes.  We've been over this ground before dude.  Revenues are still rising thanks to the booming economy.

Bloody hell, I meant months, not weeks. Damn units. Bane of my existence.

[NorthSideSox72]

Agree but that needs to be beefed up anyway.  Emplacing a physical border would allow border enforcement personnel to redeploy to right on the border from the more inland locations that some of them now patrol. 

I think that's a little extreme of an assessment, especially considering that most of the border region is a desert wasteland.

As with the 1st point.  Emplacing a physical border allows you to re-deploy people down to the line as opposed to inland areas.  That combined with some more funding for re-enforcements and that solves that issue.

 

You can also leave open area's like mountainous regions.  If a bunch of illegals make it over a mountain then you can have a chopper snag em up on the far side and reward them for their efforts with a trip to the pokey and a one way ride back.

 

On the wall and technology bit, I disagree. The wall slot restricts your teams to the border itself. You will need inland teams in any case, because some will make it through. Better to set the teams here and there on the US side, ready to roll as soon as the control center dispatches them.

 

As for the "desert wasteland", you are misinformed. I've been on the border in NM and AZ, and yeah, some of it is desert. Very little is wasteland. All kinds of endangered species straddle the border, plant and animal. And some of the mountainous areas are downright plush.

 

As for leaving mountains open, that won't be good. As it is, rangers in what is left of the Coronado NF, that hits the border near the AZ/NM line catch mule trains crossing there all the time with drug shipments, and those park rangers are not well trained for drug interdiction. They need better detection gear, and better trained reinforcements. Since those are pricey, you employ them as strike teams with the tech gear I mentioned earlier.

[Balta1701]

Actually, the official line from East Germany was to keep Westerners out.

 

But having had a family separated by a similar wall, I tend not to like them.

Yeah, which is why they shot all those easterners trying to get to the west. Because they didn't want them to find a westerner and then bring them back across to their communist paradise.

[Rex Kickass]

Hey I'm just saying what they said. I never said I agreed with them.

[Texsox]

EAST Germany put up the Berlin wall to keep people from leaving an oppressive communist regime. 

 

The purpose of this is to stop people from invading our country which, by the way, is a wholly legitimate purpose.

 

People from invading our country? Wouldn't it be better to come up with a policy that matches the employer with the worker who is invading? You act like we have armies at our border. We have poor huddled masses looking for jobs and across the river are employers willing to hire them. To keep that from happening, we need to spend billions on dollars.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Bloody hell, I meant months, not weeks.  Damn units.  Bane of my existence.

 

 

10 Billion a month still seems kind of high to me. Where'd you get that info from?

[NorthSideSox72]

People from invading our country? Wouldn't it be better to come up with a policy that matches the employer with the worker who is invading? You act like we have armies  at our border. We have poor huddled masses looking for jobs and across the river are employers willing to hire them. To keep that from happening, we need to spend billions on dollars. 

Gotta watch out for the next Pancho Villa, man.

[Balta1701]

10 Billion a month still seems kind of high to me.  Where'd you get that info from?

Congress.

 

The U.S. government is now spending nearly $10 billion a month in Iraq and Afghanistan, up from $8.2 billion a year ago, a new Congressional Research Service report found.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Congress.

 

 

Gotcha.

 

 

I guess Im a little behind the power curve.

[Texsox]

If we are going to spend billions of dollars on securing our borders, let's spend it on securing the freight that comes in here. On one side is the economic pressure to clear containers as quickly as possible and on the other is the security concerns of not being able to physically check each and every container. Perhaps the threat of a WMD getting smuggled in should be a higher concern than an illiterate farm worker trying to feed his family by sneaking into the country.

But hey that's just me agreeing with Bush and Reagan, and we know what a GOPerhead I am. If it wasn't for the damn liberal media bringing up all this fence and illegal stuff, we would have just went with Bush's proposal for a guest worker program or another amnesty like Reagan.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

People from invading our country? Wouldn't it be better to come up with a policy that matches the employer with the worker who is invading? You act like we have armies  at our border. We have poor huddled masses looking for jobs and across the river are employers willing to hire them. To keep that from happening, we need to spend billions on dollars. 

 

 

HELLO TEX. Thats what we're trying to do is match employers with people and do it LEGALLY. I never said the fence is a cure-all but match that up with cracking down on companies who hire them and thats a powerful 1-2 punch to fight the problem.

[southsider2k5]

Congress.

 

I know there is more going on in Iraq, but that total is for two wars, not just Iraq FWIW.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

If we are going to spend billions of dollars on securing our borders, let's spend it on securing the freight that comes in here. On one side is the economic pressure to clear containers as quickly as possible and on the other is the security concerns of not being able to physically check each and every container. Perhaps the threat of a WMD getting smuggled in should be a higher concern than an illiterate farm worker trying to feed his family by sneaking into the country.

 

 

 

Nobody ever said that we didn't need to do more about cargo containers. So instead of slicing off a handful of F-22's how about 2 handfuls of F-22's and we can do both.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I know there is more going on in Iraq, but that total is for two wars, not just Iraq FWIW.

 

 

Now that I think about it, didn't they roll in Katrina relief money with the latest supplemental bill?

[Texsox]

HELLO TEX.  Thats what we're trying to do is match employers with people and do it LEGALLY.  I never said the fence is a cure-all but match that up with cracking down on companies who hire them and thats a powerful 1-2 punch to fight the problem.

 

We can match that up legally, and not spend billions annually on a fence and it's maintenance.

 

The problem, if we should even call it that, is we have more jobs than people to work them. We issue thousands and thousands of H1B tech Visas every year. When Microsoft needs progammers, they lobby Washington and more Visas are planned. When the local farmer needs 900 people to pick and pack his crop for 2 months, he doesn't have that pull in Washington. He winds up employing workers without documentation at worst, or with fake documentation at the almost worst.

 

At the core, needing workers and not having them has fueled this problem. Employers aren't creating jobs for illegals. This isn't some charity thing. Let's address the issue of importing workers when we need them in a controlled and safe manner. When that happens, we won't need a fence.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

We can match that up legally, and not spend billions annually on a fence and it's maintenance.

 

The problem, if we should even call it that, is we have more jobs than people to work them. We issue thousands and thousands of H1B tech Visas every year. When Microsoft needs progammers, they lobby Washington and more Visas are planned. When the local farmer needs 900 people to pick and pack his crop for 2 months, he doesn't have that pull in Washington. He winds up employing workers without documentation at worst, or with fake documentation at the almost worst.

 

At the core, needing workers and not having them has fueled this problem. Employers aren't creating jobs for illegals. This isn't some charity thing. Let's address the issue of importing workers when we need them in a controlled and safe manner. When that happens, we won't need a fence.

 

 

The fact that we have to import people in here to work high tech jobs is our own fault and the fault of our crappy education system.

 

Tex we totally agree on the need for a guest worker system. Got it. But there are still going to be people who try to get in here illegally and that is what has to be addressed.

[Texsox]

The fact that we have to import people in here to work high tech jobs is our own fault and the fault of our crappy education system. 

 

Tex we totally agree on the need for a guest worker system.  Got it.  But there are still going to be people who try to get in here illegally and that is what has to be addressed.

 

That would be true if unemployment was at a much higher level. We are importing workers across the board and outsourcing. So I don't think it is a crappy education system. Plus, if the system was that crappy, we'd have all the lawnmen and farm hands we'd need.

 

Yes, there will still be some that try and sneak in. Then we have to address how much it is worth to stop them. $100 billion to stop 1,000 people? Maybe not. And can we remember tourism, medical, and educational systems bring in so many people that terrorists don't need to sneak in. They can buy their way in the front door. We are talking about stopping desperate, mostly illiterate, workers, with this fence. Too much money for too little benefit.

[Controlled Chaos]

We will always need border security. Be it fence, high tech, or personel. Believing that Mexicans won't try to come here illegally cause they can get on a guest worker waiting list is a pipe dream.