GOP Backing Away From Tough Immigration

[NorthSideSox72]

Do you people advocating deporting 12 million plus people realize how logistically ridiculous that is?   

 

A more common sense approach would be much better.

If you do this right (guest worker program, fines on employers of illegal aliens, and enforce the immigration laws on illegals on an opportunity basis), you do not have to deport anyone. They will go on their own, in order to get in line for the jobs. They do it for us.

[NorthSideSox72]

We could build a wall for that.

No wall. Please. So many negatives to doing that.

[southsider2k5]

If it is in our nation's best interest to forget their criminal history, then I agree, we should. I don't think we should spend billions of dollars to deport them, which is what our laws call for. And that is the slope we are on. Only the most extreme claim that rounding them up and deporting is the thing to do. So we start from a premise that we should ignore our law and modify it after the fact. Let's never get in this position again. I think everyone can agree on that.

 

SS, over what time period and how did they determine that number? Was that legal and illegal Mexican nationals? Does that also include Americans living in Mexico? Like everyone here, all these numbers seem suspect to me. How much could you save on $12,000 per year income? Remember illegals shop in the same stores as you and I. If they could still save and send home even a $1000, that's pretty amazing. JimH and I just kicked around people not being able to save that without having the IRS hold it for us. Yet they are able to? They are far better money managers than most Americans.

$1000x12,000,000=$12,000,000,000.00 Stuff like that is why you see extended families all living together in one home.

 

I forget where I saw the specific number, but I did a quick google and I found amounts from $10 billion annually to the NYT supposedly saying $17 billion, and BancoMex saids $16 billion. Regardless of which number you believe, its significant.

 

No doubt they are way better savers than Americans who savings rate is something like 0.5%.

[southsider2k5]

$1000x12,000,000=$12,000,000,000.00  Stuff like that is why you see extended families all living together in one home.

 

I forget where I saw the specific number, but I did a quick google and I found amounts from $10 billion annually to the NYT supposedly saying $17 billion, and BancoMex saids $16 billion.  Regardless of which number you believe, its significant.

 

No doubt they are way better savers than Americans who savings rate is something like 0.5%.

 

Searching google further an article from the Federal Reserve bank of Dallas saids an estimated $20 billion.

 

http://www.dallasfed.org/research/swe/2006/swe0601c.pdf

[Texsox]

$1000x12,000,000=$12,000,000,000.00  Stuff like that is why you see extended families all living together in one home.

 

I forget where I saw the specific number, but I did a quick google and I found amounts from $10 billion annually to the NYT supposedly saying $17 billion, and BancoMex saids $16 billion.  Regardless of which number you believe, its significant.

 

No doubt they are way better savers than Americans who savings rate is something like 0.5%.

 

Plus, assuming that some illegals are living together, that could be $5000 or $6000 per family. And Americans are struggling to save for retirement. :headshake

[Balta1701]

No doubt they are way better savers than Americans who savings rate is something like 0.5%.

Actually...last year the average American's savings rate was not 0.5%, it was -0.5%. link

[Texsox]

Couple things from that article. It's a pdf and I can't just cut and paste

 

Americans are Mexico's biggest investors.

 

This number is for all immigration, not just the illegals. I would imagine that legal migrants, who are generally better educated and earning more in the US, may be a bigger source.

 

Interesting, regardless, that is a big number.

 

BTW, a common phrase to describe how closely tied the two economies are is "When the US sneezes. Mexico catches a cold."

 

Kap, the Kenyans you are working with, do you think they are sending money back to Kenya?

[southsider2k5]

Actually...last year the average American's savings rate was not 0.5%, it was -0.5%.  link

 

LOL. Even better, I hadn't seen that number since college I think, so obviously we have gotten MUCH better

[kapkomet]

Couple things from that article. It's a pdf and I can't just cut and paste

 

Americans are Mexico's biggest investors.

 

This number is for all immigration, not just the illegals. I would imagine that legal migrants, who are generally better educated and earning more in the US, may be a bigger source.

 

Interesting, regardless, that is a big number.

 

BTW, a common phrase to describe how closely tied the two economies are is "When the US sneezes. Mexico catches a cold."

 

Kap, the Kenyans you are working with, do you think they are sending money back to Kenya?

You know, I don't know. I think they are saving it all so that they can get him back over here, which is quite expensive from what I understand.

[Texsox]

You know, I don't know.  I think they are saving it all so that they can get him back over here, which is quite expensive from what I understand.

 

I assume he must be looking for an H1B Tech Visa.

[southsider2k5]

I found this and it blew my mind. It seems that Mexico doesn't want to open its own borders to immigrants.

 

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-mex19.html

 

TULTITLAN, Mexico -- Considered felons by the government, these immigrants fear detention, rape and robbery. Sometimes they are deported; more often police officers simply take their money.

 

More at link...

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I found this and it blew my mind.  It seems that Mexico doesn't want to open its own borders to immigrants.

 

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-mex19.html

More at link...

 

 

Its really simple. The Mexican government is trying to get rid of as many of its own poor people as it can by pawning them off on the U.S. Its a nice bonus also that the money they send back is the second largest revenue source for their country to boot.

[Texsox]

Its really simple.  The Mexican government is trying to get rid of as many of its own poor people as it can by pawning them off on the U.S.  Its a nice bonus also that the money they send back is the second largest revenue source for their country to boot.

Mexico a blueprint for our country to follow.

 

Mexico is a third world country with much different needs than the US. How anyone thinks that both countries are equal and should have equal laws surprises me. Yes, Mexico has a lot of poor, unskilled workers. And, in perfect symetry, the US has a need for lots of unskilled workers. Thank God we have an education system and a society, that actually can take almost anyone, put them through our schools, and they will be qualified to work jobs above unskilled. But instead of celebrating our good fortune and the bounty that comes with being a world power, we are thnking we should have the same laws as Mexico. Let's set out sights a bit higher.

 

Shouldn't the US laws be based on what is best for the US and not compare it with what Mexico does?

And Nuke, since you are such a fan of Mexico laws, let's take away everyone's guns like Mexico.

[southsider2k5]

Mexico a blueprint for our country to follow.

 

Mexico is a third world country with much different needs than the US. How anyone thinks that both countries are equal and should have equal laws surprises me. Yes, Mexico has a lot of poor, unskilled workers. And, in perfect symetry, the US has a need for lots of unskilled workers. Thank God we have an education system and a society, that actually can take almost anyone, put them through our schools, and they will be qualified to work jobs above unskilled. But instead of celebrating our good fortune and the bounty that comes with being a world power, we are thnking we should have the same laws as Mexico. Let's set out sights a bit higher.

 

Shouldn't the US laws be based on what is best for the US and not compare it with what Mexico does?

And Nuke, since you are such a fan of Mexico laws, let's take away everyone's guns like Mexico.

 

Oh.Please.

 

These people obviously are trying to get into Mexico for a reason. There are obviously jobs that Mexicans don't want to do, and there must be somekind of stupid immigration policy that prevents people who actually want to do these jobs from getting there... or they wouldn't have central/south americans trying to sneak into their country to make a better life for themselves. But for us it is supposed to be enough to penalize our poor, our immigrants, our working people... For Mexico, they are just a burden to be abused, made as felons, robbed, and sent back to where they came from. Mexico is a country of 105 million people, and they can't find room for more than 15,000 people in FIVE YEARS?!?!? And on top of that, they expect us a country of 300 million people to absorb 12 million people, plus another 500,000 a year?!?!

 

You can't take the arguement and say it is OK for Mexico to do it, and it isn't OK for the US. This reeks of hypocrisy of the highest levels by Vincente Fox and the Mexician people. Of course they don't want us to compare it to what Mexico does, because they know it would be a PR disaster if, once again, the media reported the whole story.

 

If they expect American borders and American jobs to be open an open frontdoor to support their economy, how dare they close their own backdoor to the exact same kind of people. And to frame this as some sort of slam against the US just makes me irate. How dare a group that commits racism against a group of people have the audacity to protest while illegally in another country for rights they refuse to give people IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY. If they actually believed the stuff they said, they would be trying to share the wealth and help their fellow man, instead of showing how big of hypocrates they are. Its not about Mexico having the same laws as us, its about Mexico having the same standards as they expect to impose on a forgein and sovergein nation.

 

Maybe as a solution would could close our borders to Mexico, and accept all of the Central and South Americans directly who seem to really need help more than their Mexican bretheran? If they are willing to even accept Mexico's "third world" lifestyle how horrible must things be in their native country. We need to help them more, right?

[kapkomet]

Mexico a blueprint for our country to follow.

 

Mexico is a third world country with much different needs than the US. How anyone thinks that both countries are equal and should have equal laws surprises me. Yes, Mexico has a lot of poor, unskilled workers. And, in perfect symetry, the US has a need for lots of unskilled workers. Thank God we have an education system and a society, that actually can take almost anyone, put them through our schools, and they will be qualified to work jobs above unskilled. But instead of celebrating our good fortune and the bounty that comes with being a world power, we are thnking we should have the same laws as Mexico. Let's set out sights a bit higher.

 

Shouldn't the US laws be based on what is best for the US and not compare it with what Mexico does?

And Nuke, since you are such a fan of Mexico laws, let's take away everyone's guns like Mexico.

BS. Mexico has the fifth largest economy in the world. But it's so poor!!! It's so corrupt though that the poor people stay poor. They all are pawned off here.

[Texsox]

BS.  Mexico has the fifth largest economy in the world.  But it's so poor!!!  It's so corrupt though that the poor people stay poor.  They all are pawned off here.

 

Kap, that isn't accurate. I'm not certain where you found that information, but there are many larger. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbo...r/2001rank.html

 

SS,

 

Shouldn't we do what is right for America? I know you want to change Mexico, and perhaps your proposed changes would be for the better, but I'm tired of trying to solve the world's problems. I'm an American and not a Mexican.

 

Mexico and the US are different countries and have different needs. If Mexico allowed unlimited immigration and then told the US that they had to also, we wouldn't accept that. Why should we care what another countries' laws are? We have a choice of either training unskilled laborors in this country or allowing immigration. If a guest worker program is in our nation's best interest, then I don't see where we should hurt ourselves to change Mexico laws.

[kapkomet]

Look. Bottom line is this. Mexico wants to pawn off their poor people on us, so our GOVERNMENT can take care of them with the social programs that are here in America. That way, the corrupt assholes in Mexico gets to funnel all their money to the government which allows the fat cats to get bigger. Oh wait, that's what the Democrats say here about the tax cuts. I guess we're no better.

[Texsox]

Here's something I just don't get. Instead of celebrating the fact that our society has advanced to the stage where our children can have careers that are more lucrative than toiling at unskilled, manual labor jobs, some seem to be proposing we should take a giant step back and raise Americans to work these jobs? Because if we don't want immigrants to do them, then it must be y'alls children.

 

IMHO, we should be happy our children do not have to do these jobs. That a high school diploma moves them a couple steps up the job ladder. We also have made a college education within grasp of anyone with the resolve to go to school. We are paying big money for one of the world's greatest education systems and now some would have us turning out busboys, produce pickers, and lawn men. We are even insisting these workers get educated, we want them to learn English, even though many are illiterate in their own language.

 

First generation immigrants have been doing these jobs forever, in every society. Those that come first hopefully provide a platform for their children to move ahead and grab hold of the American dream.

[Texsox]

Look.  Bottom line is this.  Mexico wants to pawn off their poor people on us, so our GOVERNMENT can take care of them with the social programs that are here in America.  That way, the corrupt assholes in Mexico gets to funnel all their money to the government which allows the fat cats to get bigger.  Oh wait, that's what the Democrats say here about the tax cuts.  I guess we're no better.

 

And our workforce needs them.

 

The hypocrisy argument just doesn't make sense to me. If you really believe that, then we would have to throw open the border to an unlimited number of immigrants from any country that allows unlimited Americans to immigrate. Because we wouldn't want to be hypocrits. I don't have a problem with us allowing more, or less, immigrants than that country allows from the US. Obviously you two do. So besides just calling them hypocrits, please tell me why it is in our best interest to base our immigration laws on those of other countries.

[southsider2k5]

Here's something I just don't get. Instead of celebrating the fact that our society has advanced to the stage where our children can have careers that are more lucrative than toiling at unskilled, manual labor jobs, some seem to be proposing we should take a giant step back and raise Americans to work these jobs? Because if we don't want immigrants to do them, then it must be y'alls children.

 

IMHO, we should be happy our children do not have to do these jobs. That a high school diploma moves them a couple steps up the job ladder. We also have made a college education within grasp of anyone with the resolve to go to school. We are paying big money for one of the world's greatest education systems and now some would have us turning out busboys, produce pickers, and lawn men. We are even insisting these workers get educated, we want them to learn English, even though many are illiterate in their own language.

 

First generation immigrants have been doing these jobs forever, in every society. Those that come first hopefully provide a platform for their children to move ahead and grab hold of the American dream.

 

Uh, no one said they don't immigrants to do the jobs. They don't want illegal immigrants doing them. I don't think I have seen one person in this entire thread who saids they want to close the borders and keep everything in the US. Your rant is completely misguided.

[NorthSideSox72]

Here's something I just don't get. Instead of celebrating the fact that our society has advanced to the stage where our children can have careers that are more lucrative than toiling at unskilled, manual labor jobs, some seem to be proposing we should take a giant step back and raise Americans to work these jobs? Because if we don't want immigrants to do them, then it must be y'alls children.

 

IMHO, we should be happy our children do not have to do these jobs. That a high school diploma moves them a couple steps up the job ladder. We also have made a college education within grasp of anyone with the resolve to go to school. We are paying big money for one of the world's greatest education systems and now some would have us turning out busboys, produce pickers, and lawn men. We are even insisting these workers get educated, we want them to learn English, even though many are illiterate in their own language.

 

First generation immigrants have been doing these jobs forever, in every society. Those that come first hopefully provide a platform for their children to move ahead and grab hold of the American dream.

Tex-

 

While I do not agree with much of your stance on this issue, I do agree that we cannot expect to raise many new Americans to do these jobs. Just won't happen. That is why I support the guest worker program and other changes to the current immigration process.

 

Here is another idea. If there is really that much low-pay, hard labor work needed to be done, maybe we can put our overburdened prison system to work on that. There are of course limitations to that, but I think it could be part of the solution.

[Texsox]

Tex-

 

 

 

Here is another idea.  If there is really that much low-pay, hard labor work needed to be done, maybe we can put our overburdened prison system to work on that.  There are of course limitations to that, but I think it could be part of the solution.

 

Because as soon as you use prison labor, you have taken a job from a honest person and given it to a criminal. Which is why I prefer a guest worker program and allowing people who want the jobs to come here and work those jobs while earning citizenship. Regardless of what that countries' immigration laws are. I also favor a program to allow those who are already here to stay as long as they have not committed any crimes while in the US.

[southsider2k5]

SS,

 

Shouldn't we do what is right for America? I know you want to change Mexico, and perhaps your proposed changes would be for the better, but I'm tired of trying to  solve the world's problems.  I'm an American and not a Mexican.

 

Mexico and the US are different countries and have different needs. If Mexico allowed unlimited immigration and then told the US that they had to also, we wouldn't accept that. Why should we care what another countries' laws are? We have a choice of either training unskilled laborors in this country or allowing immigration. If a guest worker program is in our nation's best interest, then I don't see where we should hurt ourselves to change Mexico laws.

 

If their are people in more dire need than Mexico, why are we so worried about fixing their problems? Also if we are only worried about American's how is a guest worker program really in our best interests? Right now we have a seemingly endless supply of below minimum wage labor willing to work in unsafe conditions to do all of the jobs we don't want to do, while not burdening our social entitlement programs at all. Companies win because they don't have to pay high wages or offer benefits, we the consumers win because costs are kept low for us in low skill labor intensive sectors. Why are we worried about these people at all then? Supposedly they aren't taking any American's jobs that they want to do, so we don't lose there either... If this is just about us, why help the illegal aliens at all? That would just hurt us in the long run anyway. Why would we hurt OURSELVES to help Mexicans in the first place?

 

Can you see how that arguement doesn't hold up at all?

[NorthSideSox72]

Because as soon as you use prison labor, you have taken a job from a honest person and given it to a criminal. Which is why I prefer a guest worker program and allowing people who want the jobs to come here and work those jobs while earning citizenship. Regardless of what that countries' immigration laws are. I also favor a program to allow those who are already here to stay as long as they have not committed any crimes while in the US.

I can understand that argument - not wanting to give away those jobs that someone who obeys the laws might take. So if they are being filled by legal immigrants or US citizens, great.

 

But I still don't think amnesty is in order for illegals. By the nature of their situation, they have already broken multiple laws.

[kapkomet]

Uh, no one said they don't immigrants to do the jobs.  They don't want illegal immigrants doing them.  I don't think I have seen one person in this entire thread who saids they want to close the borders and keep everything in the US.  Your rant is completely misguided.

Exactly. Illegal being the key word.