Health news from England

[juddling]

Fetus Cannot Feel Pain, Expert Says

04.14.06, 12:00 AM ET

 

FRIDAY, April 14 (HealthDay News) -- Fetuses cannot feel pain, therefore U.S. legislation requiring doctors to tell women that the fetus will feel pain, or to provide pain relief during abortions, has no scientific basis and may harm the women involved, a leading expert contends.

 

"This is an unwarranted piece of legislation because there is good evidence that the fetus cannot feel pain at any stage of gestation," said Stuart Derbyshire, senior lecturer in psychology at the University of Birmingham, U.K.

 

He authored an review of the available data on the subject in the April 15 issue of the British Medical Journal.

 

"I don't think the question of pain resolves the argument about abortion," said Derbyshire, who said abortion remains a social, moral and political question. However, he said that, based on the evidence, "it's illegitimate to use the possibility of pain as a way of trying to prevent abortion from occurring, because the possibility of pain doesn't exist."

 

Some other experts agreed.

 

"No one wants to inflict pain in fetuses unnecessarily, nor do physicians want to put the mother at risk by the unnecessary administration of analgesics to treat her fetus, not her," said Dr. Henry J. Ralston, a professor of anatomy and neuroscience at the University of California School of Medicine, San Francisco. "I agree with Dr. Derbyshire's primary conclusion, that 'Legal or clinical mandates to prevent pain in fetuses are based on limited evidence and may put women seeking abortion at unnecessary risk.'"

 

The U.S. government is presently considering legislation that would require doctors to inform women seeking abortions that "there is substantial evidence that the process of being killed in an abortion will cause the unborn child pain."

 

The legislation would additionally require that a fetus of more than 22 weeks' gestational age receive anesthesia before the abortion procedure. Doctors who refuse to comply could be fined $100,000 while also losing their license and their Medicaid funding.

 

More than a dozen state legislatures -- including those in New York and California -- have debated such bills. Several states have already passed laws.

 

Congress is also considering whether to require doctors to provide anesthesia to fetuses in all cases of abortion after 22 weeks of gestational age.

 

But is there enough evidence to conclude that fetuses actually experience pain?

 

After examining the available neurological and psychological literature, Derbyshire says "no."

 

The neural circuitry needed to process pain is complete, if not mature, by 26 weeks' gestation, he said. "From about 26 weeks you can talk about there being a complete system in terms of biology, a link from the skin to the spinal cord to the brain, and we know that set-up is reasonably functional," Derbyshire explained.

 

But to properly experience pain, the mind must also be developed, something which cannot happen until after birth. The mind permits the subjectivity of pain, said the U.K. expert, who has previously served as an unpaid consultant to Planned Parenthood of Virginia and Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin, as well as the U.K.-based Pro-Choice Forum.

 

"The key thing is representational memory," Derbyshire explained. "If you want to discriminate pain from hunger, from vision, or from any other sensational experience, you need to be able to label it in some way, and that will come from interactions with the primary caregiver," -- in other words, after birth.

 

"I agree that pain is a complex sensory experience that requires activation of many regions of the cerebral cortex and that 'Without consciousness there can be nociception [response to noxious events] but there cannot be pain,'" Ralston said. "I do not know when that necessary neural circuitry is fully developed and functional, but it certainly is not established by 20 weeks gestational age, as encoded in legislation in several states in laws penalizing physicians for not informing mothers about pain in their fetuses."

 

The problem with the actions encoded in the legislation is that it could put the mother at risk, according to Derbyshire.

 

"It does introduce risks to the mother if we start to inject drugs to the fetus and increase the time of the procedure," Derbyshire said. "That would be unnecessary and involve unnecessary costs and risks."

[AbeFroman]

discuss eh?

 

This will just turn into a pissing match of experts. Righties say this expert that says they feel pain is right... Lefties say this expert that says they don't feel pain is right.

 

I really don't think there is much to discuss. I feel like we really don't know the answer and this thread will simply devolve to a heated debate between two heavily entrenched sides of the abortion issue with nobody being convinced in either direction.

 

hopefully, i just saved a bunch of you a lot of time

Edited April 14, 2006 by AbeFroman

[southsideirish71]

But to properly experience pain, the mind must also be developed, something which cannot happen until after birth. The mind permits the subjectivity of pain, said the U.K. expert, who has previously served as an unpaid consultant to Planned Parenthood of Virginia and Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin, as well as the U.K.-based Pro-Choice Forum.

 

I wonder what their agenda is. So a baby at 39 weeks because it has not gone through the birthing process can not feel pain, however a 36 week pre-me can because they were removed from a C section? This is just more agenda based science to make themselves feel good that this is removing a group of cells and not a life. Its the same syndrome that we saw in Silence of the Lambs when the serial killer disassociated himself from his victims by using the word it. I love the fact in this article is a professor of pyschology. He can interview the fetus and ask it it has pain.

 

 

 

But according to other research

 

 

1997: Statement by Professor Robert White:

 

Dr. Robert White, director of the Division of Neurosurgery and Brain Research Laboratory at Case Western Reserve School of Medicine, gave testimony before the House Constitution Subcommittee of Congress. He stated that the fetus at 20 weeks gestation "is fully capable of experiencing pain...Without question, all of this is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant subjected to such a surgical procedure."

 

 

1997: Statement by Dr. Paul Ranalli:

 

Dr. Ranalli is a neurologist at the University of Toronto, in Toronto Canada. He is acting president of the de Veber Institute for Bioethics and Social Research. He gave a presentation called "Pain, Fetal Development, and Partial-birth abortion" on 1997-JUN-27 to the House Judiciary Committee of the State of Ohio. 2,3 He has concluded that the "spino-thalamic" system is fully developed at about 12 to 14 weeks of gestation. This is the system that conveys pain signals from pain receptors throughout the body to the thalamus. He apparently believes that the thalamus can feel pain, even though a connection between it and the cortex is missing.

 

To support his belief that a fetus in the second trimester can feel pain, he cites three signs:

1.) A fetus will "withdraw from painful stimulation"

2.) Two types of stress hormones which are detected in adults who are feeling pain are also found in a fetus from when a blood sample is withdrawn. He quotes:

3.) Nicholas Fisk of London, England who observed this reaction as early as 19 weeks 4, and

4.) J Partch of Kiel, Germany who observed it at 16 weeks.

[samclemens]

I wonder what their agenda is.  So a baby at 39 weeks because it has not gone through the birthing process can not feel pain, however a 36 week pre-me can because they were removed from a C section?  This is just more agenda based science to make themselves feel good that this is removing a group of cells and not a life.  Its the same syndrome that we saw in Silence of the Lambs when the serial killer disassociated himself from his victims by using the word it.  I love the fact in this article is a professor of pyschology.  He can interview the fetus and ask it it has pain.

 

i have to agree with you. just because the guy has a PhD in psychology doesnt mean he knows anything about physical medicene, especially fetuses. that would be like some academic with a worthless PhD in sociology (a psuedo-science, psuedo means false) telling me about global warming.