Bonds: Passing Aaron not likely

[fathom]

I wanted to say something similar, but I thought against it because Kittle was an ex-Sox player and I didnt want to side with Bonds in any issue.  But I do agree, its a story that Kittle tells, and it cannot be verified by anyone but Kittle and Bonds.  And given the timeframe of the comments, it was an easy target for Kittle and generated tons of buzz for his book.  Until I see(or hear) a quote from Bonds himself that says "I hate White People", Im going to attempt to give him some benefit of the doubt.

 

I've heard stories from a former teammate of Bonds which makes the comment to Kittle look polite.

[Steff]

I've heard stories from a former teammate of Bonds which makes the comment to Kittle look polite.

 

 

And I've seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears Kittle be a mean SOB when someone asked if the money from whoring his POS benches went to charity...

 

 

However, what does this have to do with Bonds passing Aaron..? And why is the fall back arguement always the racist comments?

 

 

I've also heard from 2 CURRENT teammates of his good deeds. And one of them is white.

[fathom]

And I've seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears Kittle be a mean SOB when someone asked if the money from whoring his POS benches went to charity...

However, what does this have to do with Bonds passing Aaron..? And why is the fall back arguement always the racist comments?

I've also heard from 2 CURRENT teammates of his good deeds. And one of them is white. 

 

I want to see Bonds break Aaron's record. It's not going to happen due to his injuries though. Would Bonds be more motivated to go for the record if Ruth was 1st, and Aaron was 2nd? Who knows the answer to that, but I have reason to believe he'd be more willing to stick around another year or two if that was the case. I still think he'll try to play in the AL next year, and just DH.

Edited April 25, 2006 by fathom

[Steff]

I want to see Bonds break Aaron's record.  It's not going to happen due to his injuries though.

 

 

Not the popular opinion, but I agree with you.

[Soxbadger]

Steff,

 

Its because the people who say Bonds is a racist are most likely racist themselves.

 

Its called projection, they dont want to see Bonds pass Ruth, so they say they dont want to see it because "Bonds is a racist."

 

Well damn, how come no one is saying Ty Cobb was the worst thing in baseball? He actually was a racist, refused to play in any game in which a black person was a part of, and went into the stands on occassion to start a fight.

 

Yet this man is a hall of famer because he was a white racist (which is good in many peoples eyes). Now when a black person aka Bonds gets the short end of the stick because he is black and remarks on it, he is a racist.

 

Bonds should just get on his knees and give the white man a blow job for even letting him step on the field in the white man's game of baseball.

 

The truth is, the media has been far worse to Bonds, than Bonds has been to any one else. All you have to do is look at the kid gloves Big Mac is treated with, the way Giambi gets a free pass, and so on and so forth. Its not because Bonds is a racist or mean or anything else, its quite simply the same reason Aaron got death threats.

 

Both happen to be of a different color.

[Steff]

^^ Quite a bit of truth there..

[WCSox]

Its because the people who say Bonds is a racist are most likely racist themselves.

 

So, Barry's allowed to race-bait through the media, but white people aren't allowed to call him on it? That's ridiculous.

 

Its called projection, they dont want to see Bonds pass Ruth, so they say they dont want to see it because "Bonds is a racist."

 

Bonds could've hit 800 HRs without steroids and he still wouldn't have been a better overall ballplayer than Ruth. The HRs aren't the issue.

 

Well damn, how come no one is saying Ty Cobb was the worst thing in baseball? He actually was a racist, refused to play in any game in which a black person was a part of, and went into the stands on occassion to start a fight.

 

Cobb was a horrible human being. Much worse than Barry.

 

Yet this man is a hall of famer because he was a white racist (which is good in many peoples eyes). Now when a black person aka Bonds gets the short end of the stick because he is black and remarks on it, he is a racist.

 

The sort end of what stick? I don't think that anybody's arguing that Barry shouldn't get into Cooperstown. He could've retired in '98 and would've still been a first-ballot HOFer.

 

You're also conveniently ignoring the fact that blacks were de jure second-class citizens in America in Cobb's day. That's not an excuse for Cobb's inexcusible behavior (which went well beyond racism), but you're comparing apples and oranges when talking about racism in America in 1920 and today.

 

Bonds should just get on his knees and give the white man a blow job for even letting him step on the field in the white man's game of baseball.

 

You've been watching "Bonds on Bonds," eh? Poor Barry's being mistreated by the oppressive, white society that he lives in!

 

The truth is, the media has been far worse to Bonds, than Bonds has been to any one else. All you have to do is look at the kid gloves Big Mac is treated with, the way Giambi gets a free pass, and so on and so forth. Its not because Bonds is a racist or mean or anything else, its quite simply the same reason Aaron got death threats.

 

No, the truth is that Barry is "picked on" for a reason: He constantly race-baits through the media, he has no interest in being friendly to the press, and he's a ridiculously-selfish player. While McGwire and Giambi are "cheaters" as well, they haven't gone out of their way to alienate their teammates or members of the media.

 

And speaking of kid gloves, remember back when that dark-skinned Latino named Sammy was the toast of the town in Chicago? The media slobbered over his knob just as much as McGwire's, despite the color of his skin.

 

I'm sure that there are a lot of white supremacist wackos who dislike Barry because of the color of his skin. But there are MANY more who dislike him for how he acts, rather than who he is.

Edited April 25, 2006 by WCSox

[Soxbadger]

Can you please provide me some quotes of Bonds race baiting the media?

 

Or outside of Ron Kittle, a quote where Bonds has actually made a racist statement?

 

It seems to me that the basis for Bonds being a racist, is nothing more than hearsay and unsubstantiated facts. So far I have not heard one interview, nor heard one statement from Bonds himself that has said anything racist about white people. Jim Leyland, a white person, has nothing but praise for Bonds, and never has once said Bonds is a racist.

 

Now if you want to give me some facts of Bonds being a racist, I will respond to why Bonds is race baiting.

 

But so far I can not tell.

 

As for the Ruth versus Bonds debate, if Bonds played in the early 20th century, he would have been the greatest player to ever live. If Ruth played in the late 20th century he would have been at best a very good player. It is almost impossible to compare different eras, and try and say this player is better than that player.

 

Once again, there is a glaring lack of "proof" when it comes to Bonds. Unless you have some quotes that you just are not producing?

 

Otherwise this seems to be merely gossip and hearsay, not very dependable sources of information.

[WCSox]

Can you please provide me some quotes of Bonds race baiting the media?

 

It's as easy as a Google search...

 

http://www.sportscolumn.com/story/2004/6/25/73033/2183

 

http://ezinearticles.com/?Bonds-Deals-Base...ck-Eye&id=16036

 

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl...nds-cover_x.htm

 

As for the Ruth versus Bonds debate, if Bonds played in the early 20th century, he would have been the greatest player to ever live. If Ruth played in the late 20th century he would have been at best a very good player. It is almost impossible to compare different eras, and try and say this player is better than that player.

 

Unless Barry could've been a stud pitcher back in the early 20th century AND hit 700 HRs (without steroids), he never would've been the player that Ruth was. Since I don't foresee anybody hitting 700 HRs and having multiple 20-game-winning seasons and a microscopic 0.87 ERA in 3 WS starts, I don't foresee any player being "better" than Ruth for a LONG time.

[Soxbadger]

Article 1 quotes Bonds as saying Boston is racist. There is no quote nor information that says Bonds is a racist.

 

Article 2 actually reaffirms my point, Bonds is quoted as saying "“But I’m not a racist,” Bonds says."

 

Article 3 contains no evidence of Bonds being a racist, it does not have any quote by Bonds to even suggest he prefers any race. In fact the picture shows Bonds with a young white fan, which is proof once again Bonds is NOT a racist.

 

So your quick google search proved my point.

 

WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE OF BONDS RACISM?

 

The reality is, Bonds being a racist is a media creation. They media has painted Bonds as a racist, therefore some people believe that he is. This is nothing more than Nazi propaganda 101, if you say something enough times, and the message is simple, the masses will believe it.

 

You are willing to give Cobb a pass because he played in the early 20th century, and "racism was more acceptable". Well then should we give Goering, Hitler, and the rest of the Nazi crew a pass because "in the middle of the 20th century anti-semitism was not only accepted in Germany, but it was the social norm." The answer is no. Cobb is given some leniancy because he lived in a different time, but he still was far more racist than other people of his day, where the comparison should lie.

 

As to the Ruth argument, once again Ruth was playing against much weaker competition. First, Ruth never played against a single minority. Black's were not allowed in MLB, there were no latin american players, there were only white people. This greatly diluted the talent level and made it so that the few great athletes were that much better. Was Ruth a better pitcher than Satchel Paige? Probably not. Was Ruth a better hitter than Josh Gibson? Maybe, but this just goes to show that since there were 2 leagues Ruth had the great benefit of never having to face many of the most talented players in the game.

 

If you look at your own article that you gave me in which Bird says African American's are better athletes, and then look at Ruth having the fortune of never having to play in an integrated league, it is not very hard to understand why Ruth's numbers may be inflated.

 

Ruth was the greatest player of his time, but if he had to play in the modern era he would not have been the greatest player. He would have been a good player, but his physical talents would be limited.

 

Back on to the subject, can you please find me a quote of Bonds saying something racist, like "I hate white people" or "white people are inferior to blacks" or any of the other million variation of racist statements.

 

So far the articles you presented me just claim Bonds is a racist with no proof. The job of the media is to sell stories, and more papers sell when your villian is "A racist" then when your villian is "a poor black guy who has gotten a bad rap from the media."

[fathom]

Back on to the subject, can you please find me a quote of Bonds saying something racist, like "I hate white people" or "white people are inferior to blacks" or any of the other million variation of racist statements.

 

 

If this was my board, I'd be happy to state who said that Bonds is a racist prick, and give examples of what was said. However, I'm not going to post any rumors that I could never prove (even though I have no doubt they're correct).

[Balta1701]

As to the Ruth argument, once again Ruth was playing against much weaker competition. First, Ruth never played against a single minority. Black's were not allowed in MLB, there were no latin american players, there were only white people. This greatly diluted the talent level and made it so that the few great athletes were that much better. Was Ruth a better pitcher than  Satchel Paige? Probably not. Was Ruth a better hitter than Josh Gibson? Maybe, but this just goes to show that since there were 2 leagues Ruth had the great benefit of never having to face many of the most talented players in the game.

 

If you look at your own article that you gave me in which Bird says African American's are better athletes, and then look at Ruth having the fortune of never having to play in an integrated league, it is not very hard to understand why Ruth's numbers may be inflated.

On the other hand, there are 2 sides to every story (btw, I'm ignoring the racism debate because I don't care).

 

Ruth never had to pitch against Satchel Paige or any number of others. But Ruth also had enormous disadvantages then too. How about, for example, the dramatic increase in number of teams since Ruth's day, such that the talent is less concentrated? Aside from the White Sox, how many teams are really able to run out a great pitcher every day? If there were 10 teams in the league, I bet you they could.

 

Or, how about the ballparks? Some of the places Ruth played were absolutely cavernous. What would have happened had he played in Minute Maid, or Coors? Who knows.

 

On top of that, Ruth never had anything close to modern strenght and conditioning techniques. Instead of performance enhancing drugs, he had to overcome performance hindering drugs.

 

The reality is this; it's almost impossible to really even guess how one hitter could do during one time compared to another. The differences are just too extreme. The fact is this; Babe Ruth dominated his era as much as any player in history. Barry Bonds did the same in the steroid era. Anyone who tries to really say anything beyond that is just blowing smoke.

[Soxfest]

Bonds cares about passing Ruth, Bonds has made MANY references to passing the great white hope in HR's.

[Steff]

Bonds cares about passing Ruth, Bonds has made MANY references to passing the great white hope in HR's.

 

 

 

Of course he cares. Anyone who plays wants to hold records and they are damn liars if they state differently.

 

 

Look at how I stated that without using a racist comment.

[fathom]

All I know is this....in an era where a lot of players were likely on the juice, he was the best player I saw.....by far.

[WCSox]

Article 1 quotes Bonds as saying Boston is racist. There is no quote nor information that says Bonds is a racist.

 

He labeled the entire city of Boston as racist! But when I label him as one for saying something so hateful, I'm the racist?

 

All three articles contain unsolicited instances of Barry portraying himself as a victim racial discrimination. Whenever Barry does something wrong, he uses this tactic to defelect blame. I suppose it's possible that Barry really doesn't dislike white people deep down inside, but just uses them as convenient scapegoats. Either way, his use never-ending of the race card is deplorable.

 

Article 2 actually reaffirms my point, Bonds is quoted as saying "“But I’m not a racist,” Bonds says."

 

Article 3 contains no evidence of Bonds being a racist, it does not have any quote by Bonds to even suggest he prefers any race. In fact the picture shows Bonds with a young white fan, which is proof once again Bonds is NOT a racist.

 

Right, because Barry said so and because he stood for a picture with one of those little cracker kids, it's true!

 

You are willing to give Cobb a pass because he played in the early 20th century, and "racism was more acceptable".

 

I'm willing to give Thomas Jefferson a pass for owning slaves as well. But I'm not willing to give Cobb a pass for some of the other deplorable things that he did. You can misquote me all you want, but I clearly said that Cobb was a lesser human being than Bonds. And that's saying quite a bit.

 

As to the Ruth argument, once again Ruth was playing against much weaker competition. First, Ruth never played against a single minority.... Was Ruth a better pitcher than  Satchel Paige? Probably not. Was Ruth a better hitter than Josh Gibson? Maybe, but this just goes to show that since there were 2 leagues Ruth had the great benefit of never having to face many of the most talented players in the game.

 

Paige could never hit like Ruth and Gibson could never pitch like Ruth. The point is that Babe was a stud at both and I don't know if we'll ever see a player like that again.

 

This is nothing more than Nazi propaganda 101, if you say something enough times, and the message is simple, the masses will believe it.

 

There's a reason that white fans and media overwhelmingly like Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Ken Griffey Jr., Derek Lee, Walter Payton, Emmitt Smith, Jerry Rice, Tiger Woods, and Jarome Iginla, but tend not to like Barry, Albert Belle, and T.O. And it has nothing to do with the relative tones of their skin.

Edited April 25, 2006 by WCSox

[Steff]

There's a reason that white fans and media overwhelmingly like Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Ken Griffey Jr., Derek Lee, Walter Payton, Emmitt Smith, Jerry Rice, Tiger Woods, and Jarome Iginla, but tend not to like Barry, Albert Belle, and T.O.  And it has nothing to do with the relative tones of their skin.

 

 

I have no doubt if the media put the bolded stars mistakes in bigger print the opinions would be different.

 

But that proves the point that is trying to be made so don't address it.

[Balta1701]

Article 3 contains no evidence of Bonds being a racist, it does not have any quote by Bonds to even suggest he prefers any race. In fact the picture shows Bonds with a young white fan, which is proof once again Bonds is NOT a racist.

[Soxbadger]

How is labeling a city racist, being a racist?

 

It seems that you have a different definition of racist then I or a dictionary does.

 

From dictionary.com

 

Racist

 

adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion [syn: antiblack, anti-Semitic, anti-Semite(a)] n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others [syn: racialist]

 

Does his statement about Boston contain racial intolerance?

 

No

 

Does his statement about Boston contain a suggestion that one race is superior to another?

 

No

 

Does his statement about Boston contain discrimination based on race?

 

No

 

By saying "Boston" he clearly does not create a racial suggestion. Boston has people of many different races, although you could easily spin his statement to be directed at "white people", although every race can be "racist".

 

Now you are trying to switch, saying that Bonds uses the "race card". That is quite a different argument than saying Bonds is a racist. The argument that Bonds is portraying a "martyr" does have some merit, and there are plenty of quotes where Bonds uses his own race to make his plight seem worse than others. But that is once again not racist.

 

The leap you seem to be trying to make is that:

 

A) Bonds feels he is the victim of racial discrimination

 

B) Since Bonds says this in the press, he must be a racist.

 

I can not find the logic in this argument. If Bonds is the target of racial discrimination in his mind, this once again makes him want to be a "martyr" not a "racist". He no where says Black people are better, he does not say white people are lesser. He does say hes getting the short end of the stick because of things outside of his control (race), classic martyr langauge.

 

As to Thomas Jefferson, you can give him a pass but comparing him to Cobb is quite strange. Jefferson lived a century earlier than Cobb, and therefore he should be compared to the same people of his era. Almost all landed gentry at the time had slaves, which meant that unlike Cobb who was in the minority, Jefferson was in the majority. There is also evidence that Jefferson did not believe in the inequality of blacks, just he was a victim of the time he lived in. There is undisputed evidence that Cobb lived at a time when blacks were much more accepted in society, and he went out of his way to try and make their lifes miserable, and prevent them from playing baseball.

 

As to the stars you listed, your right the media does like humble stars. They like when the All-Star does not talk back, or when they are humiliated like MJ and his "betting scandals" they take it on the chin and dont lash back. But is that how athletes should be judged? They are good guys if they let the media walk all over them, they are bad guys if they stand up for themselves?

 

And we will never see a pitcher who bats or a batter who pitches again. There is a reason why the Yankees would not let Ruth pitch anymore, and it is because players are more valuable when they play a specialized role. Many of the best players in MLB were both great hitters and pitchers at some point in their career, but as they were developed the teams they played for made them focus on only one or the other. Especially as salaries are so high these days, there is no reason to risk a great offensive player pitching, or vice versa. The fact that the Yankees were not even willing to let Ruth pitch should suggest that the reason why we will never see a pitcher/hitter like that again is not because of talent, but because of team policy.

Edited April 25, 2006 by Soxbadger

[WCSox]

Now you are trying to switch, saying that Bonds uses the "race card". That is quite a different argument than saying Bonds is a racist. The argument that Bonds is portraying a "martyr" does have some merit, and there are plenty of quotes where Bonds uses his own race to make his plight seem worse than others. But that is once again not racist.

 

In a court of law, I could probably never "prove" beyond a reasonable doubt that Barry's a racist. But I find it very difficult to believe that somebody who blames whitey for all of his self-inflicted misfortune doesn't have anything against Caucasians. Even if Barry really isn't a racist, his scapegoating is equally deplorable.

 

As to Thomas Jefferson, you can give him a pass but comparing him to Cobb is quite strange. Jefferson lived a century earlier than Cobb, and therefore he should be compared to the same people of his era. Almost all landed gentry at the time had slaves, which meant that unlike Cobb who was in the minority, Jefferson was in the majority. There is also evidence that Jefferson did not believe in the inequality of blacks, just he was a victim of the time he lived in. There is undisputed evidence that Cobb lived at a time when blacks were much more accepted in society, and he went out of his way to try and make their lifes miserable, and prevent them from playing baseball.

 

If you think that Cobb was "in the minority" in terms of his dislike of blacks in the 1910s and 1920s, you're in serious need of a history lesson. Nice try, though.

 

As to the stars you listed, your right the media does like humble stars. They like when the All-Star does not talk back, or when they are humiliated like MJ and his "betting scandals" they take it on the chin and dont lash back.

 

For starters, the media likes stars who actually make an effort to be a part of their team..

 

Link

 

There's no "media conspiracy" against Barry. He has nobody to blame but himself.

Edited April 25, 2006 by WCSox

[fathom]

There's no "media conspiracy" against Barry.  He has nobody to blame but himself.

 

This is probably the best post in this whole thread. Bonds was nothing but a prick to the media his entire career, and that's why so few are supporting him right now.

[Soxbadger]

And I fully will admit that Bonds has not been the nicest athlete to the media.

 

But that is much different than saying he is a racist.

 

I doubt that you will get any argument from people saying that "Bonds is a saint, he is the greatest human to walk the earth." What I am arguing is that it is unfair to keep labeling him a "racist" when there is nothing but conjecture, gossip, and hearsay as evidence of it.

 

Bonds is not a sympathetic person, but that does not mean that I am just going to follow the mob and lynch him because he may have been mean to the media.

 

I just do not think trying to be a martyr is the same as being a racist.

[Steff]

This is probably the best post in this whole thread.  Bonds was nothing but a prick to the media his entire career, and that's why so few are supporting him right now.

 

 

 

Which begs to question.. why must those in big shoes be media whores? The talent isn't enough to speak for itself...? It should be. And because it isn't, and such a big deal is made of things not on the field, is how this bs happens. Many of these guys don't give a rats ass about the media but for fear of their dirty laundry getting aired keep the peace by speaking to the pricks.

[fathom]

Which begs to question.. why must those in big shoes be media whores? The talent isn't enough to speak for itself...? It should be. And because it isn't, and such a big deal is made of things not on the field, is how this bs happens. Many of these guys don't give a rats ass about the media but for fear of their dirty laundry getting aired keep the peace by speaking to the pricks.

 

It's all a big public relations game. As you know, the better the public image, the more money they can make with endorsements. Look at how much scrutiny guys like Eddie Murray and Bonds have received in their career because they didn't get along with the media. Considering they're under a daily microscope, I have no clue why some athletes would make things so much harder for themselves.

[WCSox]

I doubt that you will get any argument from people saying that "Bonds is a saint, he is the greatest human to walk the earth." What I am arguing is that it is unfair to keep labeling him a "racist" when there is nothing but conjecture, gossip, and hearsay as evidence of it.

 

Anybody who refuses to play for the Red Sox because there are "too many racists in Boston" definitely has issues with Caucasians. The animosity is clearly there.

 

Bonds is not a sympathetic person, but that does not mean that I am just going to follow the mob and lynch him because he may have been mean to the media.

 

And I'm not going to join the Barry Apologist Crowd because being a good teammate and acting reasonably towards the media aren't stipulated in his contract.

 

It's too bad that Bonds had to be so spiteful, selfish, and self-centered because he's easily the best position player of our generation.