Haeger

[Jim Spencer]

A knuckler basically cant pitch in relief due to the walks and the passed balls.

 

Last night his catcher, Rosa had 5 passed balls

[sayitaintso]

Last night his catcher, Rosa had 5 passed balls 

Only 5?

[YASNY]

Tim Wakefield: 144 game winner

Charlie Hough: 216 game winner (3.75 Career ERA); He also had a 25 yr career

Wilbur Wood: 4 straight 20 plus win seasons with the White Sox

 

Obviously there aren't many that succeed, but at the same time there aren't many guys that try it (usually its a last resort).  Haeger actually has a mid to upper 80's fastball and a relatively decent slider (albeit he rarely throws it) to go with the knuckler and from what I've been told he isn't that bad when it comes to holding runners (obviously they can steal at will when the knuckler is thrown, but apparently he isn't quite as slow and deliberate as Wakefield).

 

Phil Niekro wasn't too bad either.

[YASNY]

Read my post more closely.  There is no way we would bring him up for middle relief.  A knuckler basically cant pitch in relief due to the walks and the passed balls.  If he came in with runners on base, there is a large chance they will score.

 

Wilbur Wood, Hoyt Wilhem and Eddie Fisher all were, at one point or another, effective relievers for the Sox.

[Hatchetman]

wood and both niekro brothers won 20 games multiple times.

[beck72]

I love it, but I also know that Haeger has about a .5% chance of pitching meaningful innings for the White Sox.

 

Knuckleballers are very erratic, and I can't imagine the Sox would give any role to a pitcher who has so little control if an outing is dominant or gas can.

 

I hope he does well to entice a more useful (to us at least) piece from team that could use Haeger's services (Pirates, KC, FLA, etc.)

 

Well said. A guy like Haeger has much more value to a low budget, non-contending team than a team like the sox who are turning into perennial World series contenders. He wouldn't sniff the sox rotation for years and his out pitch isn't well suited for the bullpen.

 

If he continues his success into July, or at least comes back to earth a bit, his trade value would likely never be higher. Whether the sox get immediate help or a bullpen piece for the future by trading him, I'd say Charlie's days are numbered with the sox org.

[YASNY]

Why can't a knuckballer be effective from the pen? Who started this myth?

[sayitaintso]

Why can't a knuckballer be effective from the pen?  Who started this myth?

Walks and passed balls?

[YASNY]

Walks and passed balls?

 

I counter with Wood, Wilhelm and Fisher.

[Kalapse]

I counter with Wood, Wilhelm and Fisher.

That was 1970, it's a much different game today. I can really only think of 3 knuckleballers who have come out of the pen in the last few years.

 

Steve Sparks (mainly near the end of his Tiger career and with the D-Backs) he sucked out of the pen, his best year as a reliever he had a 4.88 ERA for DET/OAK in '03. Also that year Ramon Hernandez just happen to have more passed balls than any other year of his career.

 

Jared Fernandez, he's spent his whole career in the pen and has bounced around for 5 years between 3 teams and has now found himself in the minors with the Brewers. He's never had an ERA under 4 in his career.

 

Tim Wakefield, the best knuckleballer of the past 10 years spent 4 years in the bullpen for the Red Sox, his first year in the pen was '99 as a closer, he put up a 5.08 ERA and 1.557 WHIP, '00 - 5.48 ERA, 1.475 WHIP, '01 - 3.90 ERA, 1.358 WHIP and '02 - 2.81 ERA, 1.053 WHIP hence why they moved him into the rotation.

 

There really is no presedence for Heager to be successful out of the pen, the previous 3 guys have failed except Wakefield for 1.5 years and Heager's knuckler isn't nearly as good as wakefield's. Plus, AJ has enough problems trying to block Freddy and Jose's breaking balls in the dirt, do you really feel comfortable having AJ catch a knuckleballer for possibly the first time in his career during an in game situation in the 7th or 8th inning? Widger had enough problem catching him during ST, I'm not sure I want to go through that fun during a playoff race.

[YASNY]

Let's see here. The reasons offered were walks and passed balls. In the 60's and 70's a knuckleball didn't dance? Catchers didn't have trouble with them?

[Kalapse]

Let's see here.  The reasons offered were walks and passed balls.  In the 60's and 70's a knuckleball didn't dance?  Catchers didn't have trouble with them?

Fine how about the ultra inconsistency of knuckleballers? Do you really want Haeger comming into a close game and not having his good Knuckler? A pitcher with good stuff but doesn't happen to have his good stuff that night can still battle his way through it and get away unscathed, a knuckleballer on the other hand will be beaten mercifully, hell just look at what happened to RA Dickey this year, how many HRs did he serve up to the Tigers with his knuckleball?

 

I for one would not be comfortable with a knuckleballer comming out of the pen for the Sox but that's just me for all I know he could be a fine middle reliever, would show good consistency, wouldn't walk anyone and AJ/Widge would catch him just fine. I guess you just don't know until he's tried out in that role.

Edited May 7, 2006 by Kalapse

[YASNY]

Fine how about the ultra inconsistency of knuckleballers? Do you really want Haeger comming into a close game and not having his good Knuckler? A pitcher with good stuff but doesn't happen to have his good stuff that night can still battle his way through it and get away unscathed, a knuckleballer on the other hand will be beaten mercifully, hell just look at what happened to RA Dickey this year, how many HRs did he serve up to the Tigers with his knuckleball?

 

I for one would not be comfortable with a knuckleballer comming out of the pen for the Sox but that's just me for all I know he could be a fine middle reliever, would show good consistency, wouldn't walk anyone and AJ/Widge would catch him just fine. I guess you just don't know until he's tried out in that role.

 

My main point here is not about Haeger. It's about the misconception that a knuckleballer cannot be successful out of the bullpen. That generalization is garbage. Heager may or may not be. I don't have a clue. But there is no reason to dismiss him just because he throws a knuckler.

[Kalapse]

My main point here is not about Haeger.  It's about the misconception that a knuckleballer cannot be successful out of the bullpen.  That generalization is garbage.  Heager may or may not be.  I don't have a clue.  But there is no reason to dismiss him just because he throws a knuckler.

And my point is that just about no one has been successful out of the pen over the past decade throwing a knuckleball, though I'm not going to dismiss the possiblity that he could possibly be successful but there is no recent precedent to show that he could be successful.

[YASNY]

And my point is that just about no one has been successful out of the pen over the past decade throwing a knuckleball, though I'm not going to dismiss the possiblity that he could possibly be successful but there is no recent precedent to show that he could be successful.

 

And there is nothing to show that he can't be successful.

[TheHawkaroo]

Walks and passed balls?

 

What does this matter. A knuckler will have walks and passed balls whether he starts or relieves. A walk in the 1st inning is just as bad as a walk in the 7th. The object of a pitcher is to make outs, if he can't make outs then he shouldn't be starting or relieving.

 

I think a knuckler in the pen is a good idea. As the long reliever/6th starter who could eat up a lot of innings. If a starter gets hurt or has a bad outing throw in the knuckler.

[wcw2323]

What does this matter. A knuckler will have walks and passed balls whether he starts or relieves.  A walk in the 1st inning is just as bad as a walk in the 7th. The object of a pitcher is to make outs, if he can't make outs then he shouldn't be starting or relieving.

 

I think a knuckler in the pen is a good idea. As the long reliever/6th starter who could eat up a lot of innings. If a starter gets hurt or has a bad outing throw in the knuckler.

 

Charlie Heager just got the call up from the White Sox and will be starting Wednesday night against the Angels...Good Luck Charlie, you deserve it!!!!

[Kyyle23]

Charlie Heager just got the call up from the White Sox and will be starting Wednesday night against the Angels...Good Luck Charlie, you deserve it!!!!

 

 

you gonna get banned.....

[shawnhillegas]

Charlie Heager just got the call up from the White Sox and will be starting Wednesday night against the Angels...Good Luck Charlie, you deserve it!!!!

 

 

he certainly does deserve it. a knuckleballer who had an ERA of 10 in the spring facing last years ALCS opponent and taking the place of the best pitcher in baseball for that game. he absolutely deserves it which is why this story has to be true.

[RockRaines]

Let's see here.  The reasons offered were walks and passed balls.  In the 60's and 70's a knuckleball didn't dance?  Catchers didn't have trouble with them?

Yas, is there anything more worthless than a reliever who cant hold runners, walks people and throws alot of passed balls? s***, the walks alone kick Marte's ass out of town, and made Seattle want to trade thornton.

Edited May 8, 2006 by RockRaines

[Hatchetman]

I was looking at his stats and he is walking a boatload of guys. His success may be partially luck - 6 starts isn't exactly statistically significant. But most importantly he hasn't given up a homer all season. If he can keep the ball in the park, he should survive in the majors.

[Chisoxfn]

I was looking at his stats and he is walking a boatload of guys. His success may be partially luck - 6 starts isn't exactly statistically significant. But most importantly he hasn't given up a homer all season. If he can keep the ball in the park, he should survive in the majors.

He also pitched very well when he was promoted to Bham. It seems he's either very very good or very very bad and this season he's yet to be very very bad. Hopefully that doesn't happen on Wednesday if he does pitch.

[SoxFanForever]

Did anyone see that Futuresox was used as a source on the injury to Jose and the possible promotion of Haeger? I thought it was pretty cool.

 

Jose Contreras - Starting Pitcher

 

 

Jose Contreras is expected to go on the disabled list with a hip or back injury. Knuckleballer Charlie Haeger will replace him in the White Sox rotation.

Futuresox.com is reporting he underwent an MRI on his back. ESPN Radio's Bruce Levine is reporting that it's hip pain. Either way, it appears that the American League's best start through five weeks is going to miss at least most of May. Haeger would get the nod because Brandon McCarthy isn't conditioned to throw more than a few innings right now. He'd be a risky pickup in AL-only leagues, although he's pitched very well in Triple-A so far. May. 8 - 9:06 pm et

Source: FutureSox.com

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse...m=&majteam=CWS#

[Chisoxfn]

Did anyone see that Futuresox was used as a source on the injury to Jose and the possible promotion of Haeger? I thought it was pretty cool.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse...m=&majteam=CWS#

Ya...I was jazzed about that.

[mr_genius]

Did anyone see that Futuresox was used as a source on the injury to Jose and the possible promotion of Haeger? I thought it was pretty cool.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse...m=&majteam=CWS#

 

 

nice