Alternative Energy

[Cerbaho-WG]

And while Canadian Oil Shale does have a ton of oil in it, it's not an easy process to extract it.  The stuff is incredibly polluting, first of all, because you're using energy to do the work the earth does in turning oil shale into oil.  It's also a gigantic operation, on the scale of some of the largest mining operations on earth already, and that's for only a few million BPD.  It's also vastly more expensive than the Saudi LSC that we've been so addicted to, to the point that it's only become profitable in the last few years.  So yes, it's there, but if you want it to completely supply America's demand for oil, well first of all we're going to never see snow again, but secondly, it's going to take an absolutely massive investment in infrastructure in order to pull enough out.  On the scale of tens to hundreds of billions of dollars, and probably a lot of time too.  We just aren't anywhere close to being able to use that as our primary fuel source yet.

 

You're wrong on so many levels here. Extracting oil from the sands is unbelievably easy, and shale is only a bit more difficult (pumping extremely hot nitrogen into the shale, melting the tar, and pushing it towards the surface). Of course it isn't as cheap as sweet crude, but nothing is.

 

And a few million BPD? Are you f***ing crazy? Conservative estimates say that there are trillions of barrels of oil (yes, trillions), and BPD could be easily increased by, oh I don't know, investing more capital in the region which is bound to happen. As for costs, do you honestly believe that oil companies are going to pass this opportunity up because it's going to cost more than sweet crude? If anything, oil companies would be jumping at the opportunity, as they are (http://ww2.scripps.com/cgi-bin/archives/denver.pl?DBLIST=rm05&DOCNUM=20000). And you severely, once again, overestimate the amount of infrastructure needed to make oil shale extraction feasible. It's not going to cost hundreds of billions of dollars to have the appropriate tools. That's just fanatical and completely asinine.

 

I don't at all advocate the mass extraction of Canadian shale, but instead of ANWR, shale just makes too much sense.

[Balta1701]

Shell has been working on the "In situ conversion" method you cite for 2 decades thus far. It's been a lot of talk, but it's certainly not workable on a wide scale at least yet. It has not even gone through large scale testing to see how the equipment will hold up.

 

At this point, the estimates for profitability of oil shale say that the price must consistently stay above $70-$95 a barrel (Rand corp, 2005). If Shell gets that to work, then wonderful. But thus far it's still totally unproven in terms of applicability on a large scale.

[Cerbaho-WG]

Shell has been working on the "In situ conversion" method you cite for 2 decades thus far.  It's been a lot of talk, but it's certainly not workable on a wide scale at least yet.  It has not even gone through large scale testing to see how the equipment will hold up.

 

At this point, the estimates for profitability of oil shale say that the price must consistently stay above $70-$95 a barrel (Rand corp, 2005).  If Shell gets that to work, then wonderful.  But thus far it's still totally unproven in terms of applicability on a large scale.

 

I think you're underestimating it. My dad works for one of the world's largest industrial gases suppliers, Air Liquide, and there isn't much doubt in his mind that it works.

[Cknolls]

Yeah, for a paltry 215 days. The amount of oil that could be recovered from ANWR would be so negligible on oil and gas prices that it'd be a complete waste. If you want massive amount of oil, it's in our own backyard in the form of Candaian oil sand and shale, anyways.

 

But, wait, a few days ago everyone hopped aboard the alternative fuels bandwagon and now is up for drilling in ANWR.

 

SHOCKING.

 

LMAO

[Texsox]

ah, the classic "not in my back yard". it transcends all political boundaries.

I'm starting off May by agreeing with Sam

 

IMNSHO, this is more about wealth and privilege than political viewpoint.

[Balta1701]

I'm starting off May by agreeing with Sam 

 

IMNSHO, this is more about wealth and privilege than political viewpoint.

Yeah, but one of the reasons this is noteworthy is that the people opposing it are from the side of the aisle that would be supporting it wholeheartedly if it didn't inconvenience them.

 

It's not that surprising when a bunch of people who are in office because of oil tycoons oppose wind farms. It is a fairly big deal when people give speeches calling for alternative energy or raising the CAFE standards block a key wind farm that holds up alternative energy in the courts for years.

[Texsox]

We are on an energy grid. Add electricity in West Texas and someone in Maine benefits.

 

How come garbage dumps aren't located near wealthy communities?

How come prisons aren't located near wealthy communities?

 

There are all sorts of things that people don't want in their backyard, and in our society, they seem to always wind up in some poor person's backyard, not wealthy Democrats _or_ Republicans.

[Balta1701]

We are on an energy grid. Add electricity in West Texas and someone in Maine benefits.

 

How come garbage dumps aren't located near wealthy communities?

How come prisons aren't located near wealthy communities?

 

There are all sorts of things that people don't want in their backyard, and in our society, they seem to always wind up in some poor person's backyard, not wealthy Democrats _or_ Republicans.

Not entirely on the first part...as you increase distance, resistance goes up, so you simply cannot transmit the power that far.

[Texsox]

Not entirely on the first part...as you increase distance, resistance goes up, so you simply cannot transmit the power that far.

 

You don't have to. Less get's pulled from one area and it just kind of cascades. Dallas doesn't pull as much from St Louis, who doesn't pull as much from Cleveland, who doesn't pull as much from Boston, and viola. Capacity in helps no matter where.

 

Now I wish every home also had a means to generate electricity. I've looked at various solar possibiites, with the bonus of "selling back" excess.