This Loss is on Ozzie

[IlliniKrush]

This isn't true at all.  People have been complaining about this for a while now.  Hell, go back to the first Cleveland game, Ozzie did the same s*** and got Bobby into a jam that he was able to get out of but people were still pissed off about it.

 

This one is on Bobby cause he was horrible BUT if Ozzie continues to do this s*** in the 9th, he's going to blow a ton of saves for Bobby.  Even the best of closers usually allow a baserunner in the 9th and that's why they need a whole inning.  If you keep putting your closer into a jam, he's going to blow many more saves.

Plus, you need to make your calls before the result takes place. Had Thornton went 1-2-3 with 3 k's, i still would have disagreed with the call. Hindsight's 20/20.

 

Unless we have a closer by committe, give the ball to Jenks in the 9th. The one exception i would make is that if there is a NASTY (read: Hafner, etc) lefty leading off the inning, i'd led COTTS face him to start off the inning. Otherwise, quit screwing around.

 

Finally, there is a difference between blaming a loss on someone and criticizing someone. Just because the loss isn't 100% on Ozzie doesn't mean one can't criticize. That's like saying "we won the game, so the manager must have made all the right moves."

[Whitewashed in '05]

If he hasnt, then its another bad call.

Jenks was awful tonight, and thats going to happen from time to time, just is. However, I like when a manager puts his closer in the best position to succeed, and tonight, as well as other nights, Ozzie has not done that for Bob. Prior to tonight, Bobby has proved that the ninth should he his.

Exactly. This wasn't the first time Bobby has had to clean up someone elses mess. We had a ONE run lead and once you let that leadoff man get on its gonna be hard to hold them down. Bobby came in with no outs and a runner on 1st. A bunt got him to second with 1 out. Not his fault the game was tied at the piont. After that yes he f***ing sucked. Give the ball to Jenks in the ninth and let him f***ing blow it if anything.

[Guest JimH]

Ok, good, I'm normally not on at this time and I wasn't sure if I was missing something.

 

That's exactly where I was headed.  You can't have it both ways.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, meaning, Guillen gets criticized for pigeon holing on matchups but then he should pigeon hole the closer into getting the last three outs because ... well ... because that's the way Abner Doubleday wrote the script.

 

None of the three pitchers in the 9th executed.

[Rowand44]

Plus, you need to make your calls before the result takes place. Had Thornton went 1-2-3 with 3 k's, i still would have disagreed with the call. Hindsight's 20/20.

 

Unless we have a closer by committe, give the ball to Jenks in the 9th. The one exception i would make is that if there is a NASTY (read: Hafner, etc) lefty leading off the inning, i'd led COTTS face him to start off the inning. Otherwise, quit screwing around.

 

Finally, there is a difference between blaming a loss on someone and criticizing someone. Just because the loss isn't 100% on Ozzie doesn't mean one can't criticize. That's like saying "we won the game, so the manager must have made all the right moves."

Well that's the thing, like I've said many times already, this loss is not on Ozzie at all. I'm just tired of him f***ing around in the 9th inning, it's frusterating as f***.

[beautox]

No matter how many disagree, I'm with you. Those that play baseball or have played baseball on a team know that relievers just feel more confident when the job is theirs and they dont have to make up for other people's mistakes. The lead-off walk just set the tone for a bad inning. I am seriously tired of this match-up garbage. Jenks is our closer. Let him close.

 

 

yeah the last 3 outs in the ninth are jenks, and jenks alone.

[SSH2005]

If Jenks starts the 9th and blows it, so be it. As our closer, at least he was put in the best position to succeed.

[beautox]

No matter how many disagree, I'm with you. Those that play baseball or have played baseball on a team know that relievers just feel more confident when the job is theirs and they dont have to make up for other people's mistakes. The lead-off walk just set the tone for a bad inning. I am seriously tired of this match-up garbage. Jenks is our closer. Let him close.

i agree i think matt has looked solid but the 9th inning is no place for him.

[Whitewashed in '05]

Well if management saw anything today is that we cannot succeed with our bullpen no matter if ozzie did make a wrong decision which he did. Give Nelson a little to get back into the swing of things and get him up here. All while finding someone else that can get outs for us.

[Guest JimH]

Bobby came in with no outs and a runner on 1st. A bunt got him to second with 1 out. Not his fault the game was tied at the piont.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not sure I follow you here.

 

Yeah he came on with a guy on first. Then the bunt, one out, runner at 2nd. They still had the lead at that point 2-1.

 

He walked Graffanino, and then the bad pitch to Emil Brown, that tied the score.

[IlliniKrush]

Well that's the thing, like I've said many times already, this loss is not on Ozzie at all.  I'm just tired of him f***ing around in the 9th inning, it's frusterating as f***.

Yup. This is an issue that you can discuss without just talking about this one game, and that's what some people probably don't get, perhaps.

 

Hell, none of us really know what's going on in Bobby's head when he comes in to start the inning with no one on...compared to the tying run on first. I'm not making excuses, but there's a human element here that could/could not come into play on a particular night.

[AddisonStSox]

If Jenks starts the 9th and blows it, so be it.  As our closer, at least he was put in the best position to succeed.

 

Alright, fair enough. You've all made some fair points.

 

For me, it's unless I have Mariano Rivera trotting out from left-field, it is nowhere near an automatic situation. As trite as Hawk has made it by this point, his point remains: Ozzie coaches from the gut. He lives and dies by the sword and tonight it came back to hurt him.

 

Thornton was throwing smoke in the 8th and with Bobby pitching some hard innings lately, he wanted Thornton to get the left-hander out. It didn't happen and Bobby then allowed the inning to unfold the way it did. That said, point well taken and you've all made some solid points.

Edited May 6, 2006 by AddisonStSox

[IlliniKrush]

Not sure I follow you here.

 

Yeah he came on with a guy on first.  Then the bunt, one out, runner at 2nd.  They still had the lead at that point 2-1.

 

He walked Graffanino, and then the bad pitch to Emil Brown, that tied the score.

The troublesome part about that was that he got beat with his 2nd pitch to a guy like Emil Brown. I thought there was no way he wouldn't try to smoke him right there, then he let Emil get a part of a breaking ball. Interesting call by AJ, i presume, right there.

[SSH2005]

I know he's older than dirt but I am actually excited to see what Jeff Nelson can bring to the bullpen.

[IlliniKrush]

Alright, fair enough.  You've all made some fair points.

 

For me, it's unless I have Mariano Rivera trotting out from left-field, it is nowhere near an automatic situation.  As trite as Hawk has made it by this point, his point remains: Ozzie coaches from the guy.  He lives and dies by the sword and tonight it came back to hurt him.

 

Thornton was throwing smoke in the 8th and with Bobby pitching some hard innings lately, he wanted Thornton to get the left-hander out.  It didn't happen and Bobby then allowed the inning to unfold the way it did.  That said, point well taken and you've all made some solid points.

You've made some fine points yourself - it's been a nice conversation.

 

I think you've used the term "thornton was throwing gas/heat/smoke" about 5 times now

 

I know what you are saying about Rivera, et al...BUT, it's not like we have a ton of other great options in this pen to close out games/take a few outs in the 9th. I think now's the time to make sure/figure out if Bobby can be THE guy the rest of the year...then establish the rest of your roles from there. Right now we've played a month and there are zero roles in this pen besides Man Soo Lee.

Edited May 6, 2006 by IlliniKrush

[Whitewashed in '05]

Not sure I follow you here.

 

Yeah he came on with a guy on first.  Then the bunt, one out, runner at 2nd.  They still had the lead at that point 2-1.

 

He walked Graffanino, and then the bad pitch to Emil Brown, that tied the score.

Jenks wasn't put in the best position for him to succeed. He came in with a runner on 1st who was bunted over to 2nd with only 1 out. It would have been hard for him to keep him from scoring even if he was throwing strikes. So the game could've been tied on a single. Not a bad thing if a closer allows a hit, but in the situation he was in it was a BS. I am not defending Jenks, but maybe had he started the inning he wouldn't of blown the save.

[Rowand44]

then establish the rest of your roles from there. Right now we've played a month and there are zero roles in this pen besides Man Soo Lee.

This right here imo is the most important thing. Establish some roles in the pen. To be honest, I think it should be real easy for the 8th and 9th innings. Go Neal to Bobby, your two best relievers in the last two innings no matter what. From there establish roles for the other relievers. Like Brian said before, there is a human element to this game and I think that when a guy knows his role, he'll be more comfortable and because of that, more successful.

[IlliniKrush]

This right here imo is the most important thing.  Establish some roles in the pen.  To be honest, I think it should be real easy for the 8th and 9th innings.  Go Neal to Bobby, your two best relievers in the last two innings no matter what.  From there establish roles for the other relievers.  Like Brian said before, there is a human element to this game and I think that when a guy knows his role, he'll be more comfortable and because of that, more successful.

Alright let's say that's your plan...where do you go BMac? Not cricizing, just asking. Does he sometimes get the 8th? 7th into 8th? I'm still unsure what the hell to do with Politte....

[AddisonStSox]

You've made some fine points yourself - it's been a nice conversation.

 

I think you've used the term "thornton was throwing gas/heat/smoke" about 5 times now 

 

I know what you are saying about Rivera, et al...BUT, it's not like we have a ton of other great options in this pen to close out games/take a few outs in the 9th. I think now's the time to make sure/figure out if Bobby can be THE guy the rest of the year...then establish the rest of your roles from there. Right now we've played a month and there are zero roles in this pen besides Man Soo Lee.

 

I'm in term-paper hell, senior, cut me some slack.

 

As for the roles in the bullpen, it has been a work in progress and I think Ozzie has gone about it the right way, I really do. He wasn't handed the best bullpen this season--let's be honest, Cliff pitched over his head in 2005 and Cotts has yet to pitch like that on a consistant basis--and he's still managed to get some things done...I don't think it's a desperate as you make it appear.

 

He's worked Thornton into more and more pressing situations and so far, he has been up to the task. You can kind of see where Ozzie is headed with him and I think he's done it the right way. He wants to know if Thornton can throw some strikes in the 8th inning and at least merit some set-up innings...and if tonight is any indication of how he approaches the 8th, he looks up to the task.

 

He's also pegged Cliff as a guy who will not be that automatic set-up like he was in 2005...the same can probably be said for Cotts, although I still don't quite know what to make of him this year.

 

As for Bobby, he's handed him the ball in the ninth all year and until tonight, it has worked.

[Rowand44]

Alright let's say that's your plan...where do you go BMac? Not cricizing, just asking. Does he sometimes get the 8th? 7th into 8th? I'm still unsure what the hell to do with Politte....

I was going to say bmac in the 7th once he gets himself back together. I just believe that Neal and Bobby our are two best guys and they should have the 8th and 9th.

[Friend of Nordhagen]

The real problem is that we have a gap in our pen -- another guy to close out games. This was Jenks' third appearance in a row. If we learned anything from late last year, it's that Bobby loses a little something (a little break on the curve; a few MPH off the fastball) when he's used often. That's when someone else has to be available. The problem was that Cotts had pitched two straight days, too. And Ozzie has 0 confidence in Politte or McCarthy to close right now.

[sayitaintso]

Sure Bobby didn't look sharp tonight.

But Ozzie started him off by having the tying run on first with no one out... instead of at the plate.  Let Bobby have the 9th. No Loogies necessary... just give the ball to Jenks.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Edited May 6, 2006 by sayitaintso

[Harry&JimmyRocked]

People laugh at Jeff Nelson, but this guy has a hand full of rings, has pitched on the game's grandest stages, and is murder on right-handers.

 

We'll see how many are laughing when he develops into a go-to guy in the late innings.

 

 

im not really laughing at him. i'm pointing out that it's pretty bad we gotta bring a guy off the scrap heap to save our horrible pen. i pray to god he shows some of the unhittable jeff nelson of old. my only question is, if relief pitching is always so thin, why did no one pick him up till we did?

[RockRaines]

so bobby blows every 10th save. Fine with me.

[southsideirish71]

I will agree with another poster in this thread. The pitch calling tonight in the 9th was absolute horses***. We get caught up with sitting on the outside corner, especially against the Royals. You need to bust in once in a while to setup the outside corner.

 

Ozzie needs to figure out the roles on this bullpen and figure it out soon. If Ozzie started Thorton to shorten the game for Bobby because he pitched a few games, whatever. But if you are worried that Bobby is tired, then send out someone else. Dont dink and dunk the ninth.

 

Boone Logan needs to go. He is a LOOGY who made this team based on one thing, his ability to attack the zone and throw strikes. All he has done is had one good game when it was a blowout. He came into one game where the ball hasnt landed yet, came into another were he walked the world, and then tonight he again came in to perform the LOOGY function and got PWN3d. If the LOOGY cant do it, then send him down. His ERA looks cute, however he just allows nearly all of his inherited runners to score.

 

Thorton should be the LOOGY, until he proves the can throw strikes consistantly. Because of his velocity he is less likely to get hurt, when Boone gets behind he will get f***ing rocked.

 

Where is Neal Cotts? Bmac is also missing in action.

 

No major league teams at all mix and match the 9th like this. They either start with their closer, or if their closer has come into a lot of games, they turn to one of the setup men.

 

Now Bobby is unavailble for tomorrow. What a f***ing mess.

[DBAHO]

So how's Javier Lopez sounding as the LOOGY right now?

 

If anyone's going to be called up right now, it'd probably be him, not Nelson or Tracey I'd say, considering they'd probably send down Logan.