Sammy, Sammmy...

[BrandoFan]

Well when Im like 30 Im going to Cooperstown and if Sammys there Im gonna spit on his plaque. If its not fastened on the wall, well, Im gonna grab and run!

 

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JTC2784]

Couldn't agree with you more, YASNY.

[YASNY]

Couldn't agree with you more, YASNY.

Thank you, sir(?).

[JTC2784]

Thank you, sir(?).

well, "kid" would probably be more appropriate because of my age (18)

[whitesox61382]

How's he supposed to handle it?  How about the way McGwire handled hitting 70.  How about the way Ripken handled breaking Gehrig's Iron Man mark.  With class and dignity and respect, instead of me, me, me. I don't dislike Sosa because he's a Cub.  I dislike him because he had enough talent to be a great five tool baseball player, and he sacrificed all that to become a slugger and only a slugger.  I dislike him because he's a showboat that is not interested in being the best player he can be to help his team win.  And if you doubt that, go back to Don Baylor's first spring training as manager of the Cubs.  He wanted Sosa to go back to being a baseball player instead of a slugger.  The Cubs management backed Sosa, and Baylor lost all credibilty as manager.  Which, as a result, undermined his effectiveness as manager and negatively affected the success of the team. Again, it was all about Sammy.  I wouldn't care if he was a Tampa Bay Devil Ray instead of a Cub.  I dislike ballplayers that are more interested in their own glory than the success of their team.

You must feel the same way about the entire Sox offense then, because no one makes sacrificies for the team. No one gives themselves up to move runners in scoring position. No one bunts. No one tries to hit the ball the other way. No one just tries to put the ball into play with a runner at 3rd and less then 2 outs. Yet I don't hear you blaming them. The fact is that if Sammy were still on the Sox most of the people in here would be defending him. The majority of people out there don't see this as a major offense, by our anti-Cub bias is clotting our thought process. Which is more important a guy that hits .280/50/125 0 SB or .300/30/100 20 SB? Speed isn't as important as it use to be. It is an overrated aspect in baseball. The game is evolving into a power hitters delight, and Sammy is evolving with it. And you don't like him because of it. I think you would have a tough time arguing that a Sammy that hits 50+ HR's is less productive to the team then a Sosa that only hits 30, steals some bases, hits for a similar average, and plays a little better D. Give me an examples of how he is any more selfish then any other cocky sports star. McGwire and Ripken are the exceptions and not the norm. It just so happens that you singled out one cocky star because he plays for a team you dislike, and used your negative bias to form a decision before even thinking things through. I don't like Sosa as a person, and I hate the Cubs even more. However, as a fan of baseball in general I respect the numbers and positive things he has done to baseball. You argue that his his attitude during the 66 season was negative, but he inspired interest in this sport that has never been seen before. You are just to near sighted to realize that though. This is a minor offense that people like you are blowing out of poportion simply because you don't like him as a person. Do you think that is fair?

[BrandoFan]

Speed isn't as important as it use to be. It is an overrated aspect in baseball

 

It can be argued that Ricky Henderson at his best as valuable as Sammy in his best 2001 campaign because a SB is as good as a double and often a triple. Almost. Add to it extra bases/advanced on ball in the dirt that are not scored as a SB and all those runs scored from 1st and 2nd......Whereas a slowass Sammy/Frank Thomas nowdays, when they walk they are often stranded on 1st since they are not going anywhere and they certainly don't score from 1st on a double, etc....Over a full season those extra 20 runs a year Sosa produced over a typical slugger are lost because his defense is subpar, arm inaccurate and feet slowed....Tack onto it his 20 Mill salary and what you get is an overrated player. Still HOF-worthy, tho.

 

Speed+defense is a deadly combination, just ask Mariners fans about Ichiro in 2001.

[whitesox61382]

It can be argued that Ricky Henderson at his best as valuable as Sammy in his best 2001 campaign because a SB is as good as a double and often a triple. Almost.  Add to it extra bases/advanced on ball in the dirt that are not scored as a SB and all those runs scored from 1st and 2nd......Whereas a slowass Sammy/Frank Thomas nowdays, when they walk they are often stranded on 1st since they are not going anywhere and they certainly don't score from 1st on a double, etc....Over a full season those extra 20 runs a year Sosa produced over a typical slugger are lost because his defense is subpar, arm inaccurate and feet slowed....Tack onto it his 10 Mill salary and what you get is an overrated player. Still HOF-worthy, tho.

 

Speed+defense is a deadly combination, just ask Mariners fans about Ichiro in 2001.

You have to factor in the time that they are caught stealing. IMO being caught stealing cancels out 2 SB's, so in the end unless you have 20+ SB's with a great percentage of steals it becomes overrated. Is taking one base worth the chance of an out, especially when teams are hitting HR's at a record paces. Bobby Valentine brought this issue up on BB tonight and also agreed that the risk of taking another base is not worth the chance of making an out. There is more to speed then just stealing bases, but Sosa has decent speed even today. He is nowhere near as slow as a guy like Konerko. He scores from 1st on most doubles, from 2nd on most singles, and from 3rd on most fly balls. He still has decent speed. A valuable leadoff hitter like Henderson in his prime is just as valuable as a slugger like Sosa in his prime. But to suggest that Sosa had the potential to be the 2nd coming of Henderson is blind optimism. The fact is that he become just as productive as a guy like Henderson taking a different path, but because we don't like the Cubs or Sosa we find ways to critize him without just cause.

[Mathew]

Why check old bats of his? You think he'd give someone a 498th or whatever number bat that was corked to somebody? He is dumb but that is weel past dumb.

[BrandoFan]

It can be argued that Ricky Henderson at his best as valuable as Sammy in his best 2001 campaign because a SB is as good as a double and often a triple. Almost.  Add to it extra bases/advanced on ball in the dirt that are not scored as a SB and all those runs scored from 1st and 2nd......Whereas a slowass Sammy/Frank Thomas nowdays, when they walk they are often stranded on 1st since they are not going anywhere and they certainly don't score from 1st on a double, etc....Over a full season those extra 20 runs a year Sosa produced over a typical slugger are lost because his defense is subpar, arm inaccurate and feet slowed....Tack onto it his 10 Mill salary and what you get is an overrated player. Still HOF-worthy, tho.

 

Speed+defense is a deadly combination, just ask Mariners fans about Ichiro in 2001.

You have to factor in the time that they are caught stealing. IMO being caught stealing cancels out 2 SB's, so in the end unless you have 20+ SB's with a great percentage of steals it becomes overrated. Is taking one base worth the chance of an out, especially when teams are hitting HR's at a record paces. Bobby Valentine brought this issue up on BB tonight and also agreed that the risk of taking another base is not worth the chance of making an out. There is more to speed then just stealing bases, but Sosa has decent speed even today. He is nowhere near as slow as a guy like Konerko. He scores from 1st on most doubles, from 2nd on most singles, and from 3rd on most fly balls. He still has decent speed. A valuable leadoff hitter like Henderson in his prime is just as valuable as a slugger like Sosa in his prime. But to suggest that Sosa had the potential to be the 2nd coming of Henderson is blind optimism. The fact is that he become just as productive as a guy like Henderson taking a different path, but because we don't like the Cubs or Sosa we find ways to critize him without just cause.

I agree a CS should be counted against a player just like GIDP should decrease one's total bases if anything else....BUT to suggest that CS should cancel 2 SB's is a bit out there; afterall considering that you put pressure on the pitcher and make him waste pitches on pitchouts and nibble the corners which only helps the batter in the box, even a CS can be somewhat valuable....I don't need to tell you that a steal puts a runner in scoreing position which ion turn opens the first base and changes the whole defensive alighnement, to say nothing of, once again, malking a pitcher nervous thatthe runner might take for 3rd with less than 1 out if the ball touches the dirt, wild pitch, etc....There is no way to put the price on Jeter, Beltran, Alomar having 90% steal rate in their best years..to say nothign of take extra bases in many different game situations, staying out of DPs, etc, etc, etc....which at the end of the season comes to A LOT.

 

Now, Sammy prodigious run produciton still elevates him above the rest...but for guys like Moe Vaughn, Edgar and Jim Thome, it's very crucial to slug a lot or their worth dips significantly. ammy is not nearly as slow as Konerko (whom you might as well walk if he is hitting well since he is gonna be stranded at 1st regatdless), but he is a realtive non-factor on the base pathts.

 

I also mantioned running+defense as a combination, they are often related.

[YASNY]

Well when Im like 30 Im going to Cooperstown and if Sammys there Im gonna spit on his plaque. If its not fastened on the wall, well, Im gonna grab and run!

I can see that headlines now.......

 

Ex Marine arrested for stealing Sosa HOF plaque.

Tribune calls for death penalty

[Guest hotsoxchick1]

soxfans on the boards ban together and hire johnny cochran for defense attny......news at 9...........lol.........

[YASNY]

whitesox61382, I was very clear about the fact that Sosa being a Cub has nothing to do with my dislike for him. I always liked Grace, Sandberg and other Cub players over the years. I do not dislike a player because of the uniform they wear. I may not like the team, but I like and dislike players based on my perception of them as people and ballplayers. So, get off that "because he's a Cub" kick.

 

As for the Sox players, I blame the organization for not stressing team baseball enough. It should begin in rookie ball and carry on through every level of the minors, and then the big club. The team would have a rock solid basis of team oriented baseball after a few years. They then, shouldn't trade for players that do not play for the team.

[whitesox61382]

whitesox61382, I was very clear about the fact that Sosa being a Cub has nothing to do with my dislike for him. I always liked Grace, Sandberg and other Cub players over the years.  I do not dislike a player because of the uniform they wear.  I may not like the team, but I like and dislike players based on my perception of them as people and ballplayers.  So, get off that "because he's a Cub" kick. 

 

As for the Sox players, I blame the organization for not stressing team baseball enough.  It should begin in rookie ball and carry on through every level of the minors, and then the big club.  The team would have a rock solid basis of team oriented baseball after a few years.  They then, shouldn't trade for players that do not play for the team.

Only playing the devils advocate here, but you blame Sosa for his lack of team play and the Sox management and not the individual player for their lack of team play. That sounds like a double standard to me in an attempt to make a negative comments about Sosa. If I was coaching the Cubs and Sosa has put together back-back-back 50+ HR season, I would let him swing away. Thats just me. A 2 run HR is a little better then sacrificing a guy into scoring postion by giving up an out. Call me a selfish coach, but 50 HR's is hard to argue with and is more then enough justification for allowing him to swing away and see what happens. Judging by his RBI totals he usually does a good job driving the runners home. Asking Sosa to bunt would be like asking Thomas to bunt when he was in his prime. If he did that you would have probably called for the managers head, but since it is Sosa it is his fault and he is selfish. You may not dislike him because he is a Cubs, but it is clear that you hold a double standard in regards to the Cubs and change your point of view in referance to the Sox. Once again I will state that I don't like him as a person, but as a fan of baseball I respect what he has done production wise and for the sport of baseball.

[YASNY]

whitesox61382, I was very clear about the fact that Sosa being a Cub has nothing to do with my dislike for him.   I always liked Grace, Sandberg and other Cub players over the years.  I do not dislike a player because of the uniform they wear.  I may not like the team, but I like and dislike players based on my perception of them as people and ballplayers.  So, get off that "because he's a Cub" kick. 

 

As for the Sox players, I blame the organization for not stressing team baseball enough.  It should begin in rookie ball and carry on through every level of the minors, and then the big club.  The team would have a rock solid basis of team oriented baseball after a few years.  They then, shouldn't trade for players that do not play for the team.

Only playing the devils advocate here, but you blame Sosa for his lack of team play and the Sox management and not the individual player for their lack of team play. That sounds like a double standard to me in an attempt to make a negative comments about Sosa. If I was coaching the Cubs and Sosa has put together back-back-back 50+ HR season, I would let him swing away. Thats just me. A 2 run HR is a little better then sacrificing a guy into scoring postion by giving up an out. Call me a selfish coach, but 50 HR's is hard to argue with and is more then enough justification for allowing him to swing away and see what happens. Judging by his RBI totals he usually does a good job driving the runners home. Asking Sosa to bunt would be like asking Thomas to bunt when he was in his prime. If he did that you would have probably called for the managers head, but since it is Sosa it is his fault and he is selfish. You may not dislike him because he is a Cubs, but it is clear that you hold a double standard in regards to the Cubs and change your point of view in referance to the Sox. Once again I will state that I don't like him as a person, but as a fan of baseball I respect what he has done production wise and for the sport of baseball.

You missed my entire point. I do respect what Sosa has accomplished. However, he could have been so much better, accomplished so much more. If was a team player, he might have a couple of rings by now. After all, isn't what this thing called baseball is all about? Team victories? Sosa has had his priorities out of whack for a long time. And I'd call Baylor a much more knowledgable "coach" than you. Nothing personal, but he does have you beat on qualifications, I would assume. He tried to bring out the best in Sosa, only to be rebuffed. Here is a situation where his manager wanted him to play one way, and he refused, in order to do his own thing. The Sox players are doing are their stupid mangement team asks them to do.

[YASNY]

And by coincidence, to prove my point:

 

Today's Rozner Column

[southsider2k5]

Nice posts Yas. You see the game the same way that I do. And yes there are guys on the Sox, and who have been on the Sox, who I can't stand because of the way they approach the game.

[southsider2k5]

Here's something interesting from Yahoo.

 

Advantages in question

 

Hitters often believe that a corked bat gives them an advantage. Players drill a hole and fill it with cork, then close the hole with glue and sawdust. The bat is lighter without giving up mass, and players are able to get around on a fastball faster. Or so the theory goes.

 

But some experts say cork fillers reduce the distance a ball can be hit, about 3 feet on a 400-foot drive, according to Robert K. Adair, author of The Physics of Baseball. Adair writes that the same advantages can be gotten by choking up on the bat about an inch.

 

Whether a corked bat helps a hitter substantially or not, this much is certain: Altered bats are illegal. The major leagues' Rule 1.10 (a) says in part: ''The bat shall be one piece of solid wood.''

 

A corked bat weighs about an ounce or an ounce-and-a-half less than before it was altered. Sosa favors bats that are 34 inches long, have a barrel diameter of 2 inches and weigh 31 ounces. He said in an interview with The Indianapolis Star last summer that when he picks up a bat, he knows instantly whether it meets his custom specifications. ''I know,'' he said. ''I just know.''

Seattle Mariners infielder Jeff Cirillo doesn't believe Sosa's explanation that he used the bat by accident. Before a game in Philadelphia on Wednesday, Cirillo challenged a reporter to look around a dressing room where game-ready bats were set like shining weapons in various lockers.

 

''Batters know their bats,'' Cirillo said. ''They know their game T-shirts, their socks, their cleats. You are going to know which bat is your game bat.

 

''If you look at his bat, it was game-ready. He had been preparing. It was like a hunter sharpening his bow. And if I had a corked bat, I would surely know which one it was.''

 

Cirillo said, though, Sosa has done much for the game and should be forgiven. Cirillo said he liked that Sosa took responsibility for his actions and ''didn't hide behind his agent.''

[whitesox61382]

whitesox61382, I was very clear about the fact that Sosa being a Cub has nothing to do with my dislike for him.   I always liked Grace, Sandberg and other Cub players over the years.  I do not dislike a player because of the uniform they wear.  I may not like the team, but I like and dislike players based on my perception of them as people and ballplayers.  So, get off that "because he's a Cub" kick. 

 

As for the Sox players, I blame the organization for not stressing team baseball enough.  It should begin in rookie ball and carry on through every level of the minors, and then the big club.  The team would have a rock solid basis of team oriented baseball after a few years.  They then, shouldn't trade for players that do not play for the team.

Only playing the devils advocate here, but you blame Sosa for his lack of team play and the Sox management and not the individual player for their lack of team play. That sounds like a double standard to me in an attempt to make a negative comments about Sosa. If I was coaching the Cubs and Sosa has put together back-back-back 50+ HR season, I would let him swing away. Thats just me. A 2 run HR is a little better then sacrificing a guy into scoring postion by giving up an out. Call me a selfish coach, but 50 HR's is hard to argue with and is more then enough justification for allowing him to swing away and see what happens. Judging by his RBI totals he usually does a good job driving the runners home. Asking Sosa to bunt would be like asking Thomas to bunt when he was in his prime. If he did that you would have probably called for the managers head, but since it is Sosa it is his fault and he is selfish. You may not dislike him because he is a Cubs, but it is clear that you hold a double standard in regards to the Cubs and change your point of view in referance to the Sox. Once again I will state that I don't like him as a person, but as a fan of baseball I respect what he has done production wise and for the sport of baseball.

You missed my entire point. I do respect what Sosa has accomplished. However, he could have been so much better, accomplished so much more. If was a team player, he might have a couple of rings by now. After all, isn't what this thing called baseball is all about? Team victories? Sosa has had his priorities out of whack for a long time. And I'd call Baylor a much more knowledgable "coach" than you. Nothing personal, but he does have you beat on qualifications, I would assume. He tried to bring out the best in Sosa, only to be rebuffed. Here is a situation where his manager wanted him to play one way, and he refused, in order to do his own thing. The Sox players are doing are their stupid mangement team asks them to do.

He could have been so much better and accomplished so much more? How? He had 5 straight seasons in which he hit at least .288/49/108, and during the 1st 4 years of the stretch only hit below .308 once, only hit fewer then 63 HR's once, and drive in 138+ runs each year. No player in the history of baseball has/had come close to those numbers for that extended period of time, and you are trying to make the arguement that he could have be better or accoplished more? You are going to have a hard time proving that. Say he didn't balk up and still was a better runner and defensive player. You are trying to make an arguement that Sosa could have hit for a similar average, far less power, fewer RBI's, probably fewer walks, a similar number of strikeouts, more stolen bases, and a better defesive player would have been a better player? Not many people are going to agree with you on that. You have to make sacrifices to evolve with the game, and Sosa did that and was better off for it. His production is the only thing I need to point to to back up my opinion that Sosa couldn't have been more productive for his team.

 

Won a ring? Now you are really going out on a limb. You really think the Cubs ever had the talent to win a ring? You think the Cubs would have made the playoffs in 2001 if Sosa hit half as many HR's and drove in a lot fewer runs in to play better defense and steal a few more bases? If so then you need to learn more about baseball. Sosa was the Cubs. He single handed cared them. There is no way that the Cubs could have won a ring, because they never surrounded him with enough talent. There was an interesting stat about how Sosa accounted for more then 30% of the Cubs offense, more then any player in baseball, and you are trying to say that he would have done the same with fewer HR's and RBI's, but more speed? Or that with almost no offensive support they had enough talent to win it all? Give me some of what you are smoking because you are dulisional right now.

[BrandoFan]

He could have been so much better and accomplished so much more? How? He had 5 straight seasons in which he hit at least .288/49/108, and during the 1st 4 years of the stretch only hit below .308 once, only hit fewer then 63 HR's once, and drive in 138+ runs each year. No player in the history of baseball has/had come close to those numbers for that extended period of time

 

I agree with your larger point (if we forget about roids and cork, Sammy's 1998-2002 numbers alone should reserve him a spot in HOF and that if he was still a 30/30 man, Cubs would have still lost 100 games).

 

However, you are kinda wrong in your minor point quoted above: if you forget about HR totals for a second (homers are flashy but pretty meaningless, it's the RBIs that count), his run production is certainly excellent, but it doesn't rival that of Foxx, Ruth, Gherig, Ted Williams, etc best years....especially when you consider they played with unwatered-down pitching, dead ball, in huge parks, with pitchers throwing spitters every other pitch, high mounds, without steroids or even personal trainers, etc, etc, etc.

 

OPS alone makes Sammy great, but not otherwordly so.

[whitesox61382]

"However, you are kinda wrong in your minor point quoted above: if you forget about HR totals for a second (homers are flashy but pretty meaningless, it's the RBIs that count), his run production is certainly excellent, but it doesn't rival that of Foxx, Ruth, Gherig, Ted Williams, etc best years....especially when you consider they played with unwatered-down pitching, dead ball, in huge parks, with pitchers throwing spitters every other pitch, high mounds, without steroids or even personal trainers, etc, etc, etc."

 

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you. As you pointed out it is a different type of game when those guys played. While they didn't have the advantage of hitting as many HR's they did have other advantages. It's nearly impossible to accurately compare different decades, especially players that played mostly in the first half of the 20th century. The game has evolved into a HR hitters delight. I don't think there is enough evidence to support either way that the above players and other greats would not have evolved as well and become similar to Sosa and the other power hitters of this day of age. I agree that an RBI is one of the most important stats in baseball, but correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't a HR at least yield one RBI? I think the HR is more then just flash, especailly if you try and make the arguement that the RBI is probably the most important stat offensively. Furthermore, I do think Sosa's run production matched those above guys. I did a quick check of those guys stats and not one of them drove in 138+ runs 4 years in a row. Another thing to consider is the teams that they played for. Playing for the Yankees during their prime gave hitters like Gehrig and Ruth many more RBI oppurtinuties. Sosa played for the deadful Cubs. Look at the OBP of the guys that hit in front of Sosa during most of those years, and his RBI totals become that much more impressive. The stat that shows that he accounted for more then 30% of the Cub's offense in my mind is the most telling stat. It shows that he pretty much cared the offense for the Cubs, something most of the players that you mentioned didn't have to do because of the good players surrounding them throughout the lineup.

[BrandoFan]

"However, you are kinda wrong in your minor point quoted above: if you forget about HR totals for a second (homers are flashy but pretty meaningless, it's the RBIs that count), his run production is certainly excellent, but it doesn't rival that of Foxx, Ruth, Gherig, Ted Williams, etc best years....especially when you consider they played with unwatered-down pitching, dead ball, in huge parks, with pitchers throwing spitters every other pitch, high mounds, without steroids or even personal trainers, etc, etc, etc."

 

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you. As you pointed out it is a different type of game when those guys played. While they didn't have the advantage of hitting as many HR's they did have other advantages. It's nearly impossible to accurately compare different decades, especially players that played mostly in the first half of the 20th century. The game has evolved into a HR hitters delight. I don't think there is enough evidence to support either way that the above players and other greats would not have evolved as well and become similar to Sosa and the other power hitters of this day of age. I agree that an RBI is one of the most important stats in baseball, but correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't a HR at least yield one RBI? I think the HR is more then just flash, especailly if you try and make the arguement that the RBI is probably the most important stat offensively. Furthermore, I do think Sosa's run production matched those above guys. I did a quick check of those guys stats and not one of them drove in 138+ runs 4 years in a row. Another thing to consider is the teams that they played for. Playing for the Yankees during their prime gave hitters like Gehrig and Ruth many more RBI oppurtinuties. Sosa played for the deadful Cubs. Look at the OBP of the guys that hit in front of Sosa during most of those years, and his RBI totals become that much more impressive. The stat that shows that he accounted for more then 30% of the Cub's offense in my mind is the most telling stat. It shows that he pretty much cared the offense for the Cubs, something most of the players that you mentioned didn't have to do because of the good players surrounding them throughout the lineup.

One arguement of yours that I agree with is that whenever such comparison is done, it inevitbly involves a great deal of speculation, subjectivity and unknowable factorts.

 

HOWEVER, knowing how many homers Sosa hits to opposite fieds...well the stadium factor (420 feet to RF gap was not uncommon in those days) alone would probably take away a dozen of Sammy's homers (and with them a bunch of RBI's), turning them into mere flyouts as Mr. Schmidt pointed out long time ago.... I am not even gonna go into the juice/liveball/watered down pitching/etc aspects...

 

As for his 138 rbi thing, check out Jimmie Foxx's 1931-1938 numbers and then adjust for amount of atbats (they played less games then, right?)...suddenly Sammy's 5-year run looks more mortal, doesn't it?

[whitesox61382]

"HOWEVER, knowing how many homers Sosa hits to opposite fieds...well the stadium factor (420 feet to RF gap was not uncommon in those days) alone would probably take away a dozen of Sammy's homers (and with them a bunch of RBI's), turning them into mere flyouts as Mr. Schmidt pointed out long time ago.... I am not even gonna go into the juice/liveball/watered down pitching/etc aspects..."

 

I don't know a ton about the history of most older stadiums, but I am pretty sure 420 ft to the gap was the exception and not the norm for most stadiums during that time. If you look at the older stadiums that are still in existance they are no smaller then the newer stadiums. Sure some of them have changed over the years, but I think you are being a bit drastic if you assume a majority of the parks power alleys were 420.

 

"As for his 138 rbi thing, check out Jimmie Foxx's 1931-1938 numbers and then adjust for amount of atbats (they played less games then, right?)...suddenly Sammy's 5-year run looks more mortal, doesn't it?"

 

138+ RBI's 4 straight years mortal? You are going to get a lot of arguements from experts on that. The first thing you mention is how hard it is to compare eras and most of it is spectulation, yet you use speculation in your next paragraph to downplay Sosa's production. Instead of speculating why don't you compare Sosa's numbers to his contemparies. No player in recent history has matched 4 straight season of 138+ RBI's, juiced ball or not. Thats not mortal thats impressive. For example, the HOF judges players on how the rank compared to those they played against, and when it comes to that 4 year streak no one was better. I am sorry, but thats not mortal. A HOF player, imo, isn't mortal. Another thing that I pointed out is the players arround him, and more specificly the players that batted in front of him. Its hard to drive in runs when there aren't guys on base when you come to the plate. I don't have the stats in front of me, but I am pretty sure that Sosa hit around, if not well above, .300 with runners on base during that stretch. He took full advantage of the chances he had to drive in runs. Since you were speculating about Sosa's numbers during a different era, I think it is only fair to speculate about Sosa's numbers if he had better offensive players surrounding him like the old timers you mentioned. I think it is fair to assume that he would probably have 15-20 more RBI's a year(assuming he hit for the same avarege with runners on base that he did during that stretch) if he had better hitters behind him to allow him to see better pitches, and guys in front of him that consistantly got on base. I think that is fair speculation and would allow Sosa to say that he drove in 150+ runs during that stretch, and I don't care which era you are in when you drive in almost a run a game that is down right impressive. As you can see you can speculate negatively like you did assuming that he would hit fewer HR's during that era or you can speculate positively like I did and assume that he would have more RBI's if he had better offensive players surround him like the players you mentioned did. Either way you can't deny that in this age of baseball Sosa is not mortal when it comes to production compared with his current counterparts. Its just an attempt to tarish his amazing numbers on your behalf.

[BrandoFan]

138+ RBI's 4 straight years mortal? You are going to get a lot of arguements from experts on that. The first thing you mention is how hard it is to compare eras and most of it is spectulation, yet you use speculation in your next paragraph to downplay Sosa's production

 

1. 420 might have been excessive, but it sure as hell wasn't "soft" 365. they had quite a few stadiums with 430-480 to straight away center and Sammy hits about 7-10 of those a year, to say nothing, of course, of hits to other parts of the field that might have been much closer to what they are now, but even the difference of 10-15 feet can often mean a lot over 162 games... Think of how many RBI's would have to be subtracted if you take away some of those "cheapies". 10? 20? More? I think the 138 average is grossely inflated I am VERY confident in saying that. 110 is more like it (if in the unlikely event the run production during different decades could ever be universalized as R-GDP in 80's dollars is in economics for example...I know, it's a stretch on my part, lol).

 

2. There is a reason why I included the speculation thing up there...But since so many call Sammy's run "unprecedented" without making ANY qualifications, I felt justified in my healthy scepticism. It's not like I am saying Sosa is "mere mortal", but "more of a mortal".

 

3. Sammy indeed hit over 310 with RISP...but Fox hit .360.

 

4. I temporarily excluded the steroid arguement as well as dead ball, pitching, higher mound, etc....but let's not pretend like they didn't play a big part in keeping players like Foxx from reaching 200-RBI plateu. I am not suggesting everything should be weighted equally--it never is or will be--but some consideration should be given if not by MLB officals then certainly by a few curiosity-endowed fans. No harm done, healthy arguement.

 

5. I still said Sammy deserves to be in the Hall as much as it pains me since I more or less know in mu gut that he is all juiced up and corked out. I don't know where you got the idea where I "disrespected" what Sammy has done, I am just putting a slightly different prospective on the whole greatness thing, that's all.

 

6. I never argued that Sammy would have been a flat-out better player if he hadn't "bulked up". What I did say is that Ricky Henderson at his best could match Sammy's value while playing a completely different type of ball. I said speed+defense can go a long way, provided OBP and RISP numbers are still respectable and they were in Ricky or Ty Cobb's case.

[southsider2k5]

http://espn.go.com/main.html

 

ESPN.com has a poll on how long it will take you to forgive Sammy.

 

Vote early, vote often.

[Soxplosion]

soxfans on the boards ban together and hire johnny cochran for defense attny......news at 9...........lol.........

Oh you guys would do that for me?