Mexicans Contribution To Our Economy

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Whatever it takes to secure our border.

 

 

 

^^^^^

 

 

DING DING DING!!!!!

 

 

 

BTW. Bush is set to make a big speech on immigration reform on Monday which is thought to include proviions for deploying the Guard along the border to beef up the border patrol.

 

 

COULD IT BE THAT BUSH IS FINALLY WILLING TO DO SOMETHING CONCRETE TO STOP ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION?!?!?!?!

 

I wont hold my breath but Im hopeful.

[Texsox]

Whatever it takes to secure our border.

 

Secure from what? You honestly don't think that erecting a 2000 mile wall, costing hundreds of billions of dollars, is an over reaction? Are we so afraid of illiterate Mexican peasants we need a wall to protect us?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Secure from what? You honestly don't think that erecting a 2000 mile wall, costing hundreds of billions of dollars, is an over reaction? Are we so afraid of illiterate Mexican peasants we need a wall to protect us?

 

 

More like 5 billion from various estimates Ive heard. Like I said in a previous thread.........slice 5 billion off the bloated defense budget and get it done.

[YASNY]

Secure from what? You honestly don't think that erecting a 2000 mile wall, costing hundreds of billions of dollars, is an over reaction? Are we so afraid of illiterate Mexican peasants we need a wall to protect us?

 

What do you mean secure from what? Secure speaks for itself. If erecting a 2000 mile wall is what it takes to secure the damn borders then build it. I don't want anybody in this country who's very first act is to disregard and violate our laws.

[Texsox]

Since this fence will never be erected this is pointless. Y'all keep swatting mosquitos with elephant rifles. A guest worker program makes these people legal, which viola eliminate the need for us to live in a prison, because in your words, their first act wouldn't violate our laws.

 

But since it's what Bush wants to do, and y'all are always anti-Bush, I guess you just have to fight everything he proposes. Support the President

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

What do you mean secure from what? Secure speaks for itself. If erecting a 2000 mile wall is what it takes to secure the damn borders then build it. I don't want anybody in this country who's very first act is to disregard and violate our laws.

 

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

 

DING DING DING!!!!!

[Texsox]

^^^^^^^^

LMAO.

 

Why did stopping Mexican poor people become our worse problem requiring billions of dollars and resources? Perhaps Republicans are looking for something to divert our attention from all the legal troubles at the White House? Reagan solved this by offering amnesty. Bush offered a guest worker program. Conservatives are so desperate for something to divert attention they are fighting the boogey men.

 

We need a fence to save us from illiterate Mexcians or else our society is doomed, doomed we say! Don't stop and think that the worst terrorists in our history where either US citizens, trained by the US military, or came in through Canada. Doomed if we don't build a wall. We will be destroyed by gardners and farm workers

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

^^^^^^^^

LMAO.

 

Why did stopping Mexican poor people become our worse problem requiring billions of dollars and resources? Perhaps Republicans are looking for something to divert our attention from all the legal troubles at the White House? Reagan solved this by offering amnesty. Bush offered a guest worker program. Conservatives are so desperate for something to divert attention they are fighting the boogey men.

 

We need a fence to save us from illiterate Mexcians or else our society is doomed, doomed we say! Don't stop and think that the worst terrorists in our history where either US citizens, trained by the US military, or came in through Canada. Doomed if we don't build a wall. We will be destroyed by gardners and farm workers

 

 

You're arguments are reduced to making fun of others in this issue and that's what's truly funny.

 

Reagan didn't solve anything with his amnesty, he made the situation far worse.

 

Bush is taking the right step forward with his guest worker program but thats all it is is a first step. You have to have a stick to go along with the carrot.

 

Those "harmless" farmers and gardners are costing states billions of dollars a year, destroying the lives of farmers and ranchers who reside along the border and allow the Mexican government to export its problem to the United States.

 

But you're too busy laughing to see any of this.

 

:rolly

Edited May 14, 2006 by NUKE_CLEVELAND

[Texsox]

You're arguments are reduced to making fun of others in this issue and that's what's truly funny.

 

Reagan didn't solve anything with his amnesty, he made the situation far worse.

 

Bush is taking the right step forward with his guest worker program but thats all it is is a first step. You have to have a stick to go along with the carrot.

 

Those "harmless" farmers and gardners are costing states billions of dollars a year, destroying the lives of farmers and ranchers who reside along the border and allow the Mexican government to export its problem to the United States.

 

But you're too busy laughing to see any of this.

 

:rolly

 

And a guest worker program, that allows for workers that America needs, is controlled, and allows for citizenship after a set criteria is met, solves this without turning the border into a prison zone. It allows for the economic benefits that border communities derive from Mexican tourists. It allows for the labor that American industries need.

 

Yes, poor people cost us billions of dollars, no matter their citizenship. Poor people don't pay much, if any, in taxes, so that is a false argument. It isn't their legal status that costs billions, it's their income. Replace undocumented with documented, and the cost is still there. Make immigration easier, resulting in less resources necessary to enforce the law, costs us less.

 

This isn't about securing the borders, it's about controlling Mexican immigration. That can be accomplished without spending billions on a 2000 mile long fence.

 

This issue has been around forever. Interesting timing that conservatives all of a sudden want to make it our nation's #1 problem.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

And a guest worker program, that allows for workers that America needs, is controlled, and allows for citizenship after a set criteria is met, solves this without turning the border into a prison zone. It allows for the economic benefits that border communities derive from Mexican tourists. It allows for the labor that American industries need.

 

Yes, poor people cost us billions of dollars, no matter their citizenship. Poor people don't pay much, if any, in taxes, so that is a false argument. It isn't their legal status that costs billions, it's their income. Replace undocumented with documented, and the cost is still there. Make immigration easier, resulting in less resources necessary to enforce the law, costs us less.

 

This isn't about securing the borders, it's about controlling Mexican immigration. That can be accomplished without spending billions on a 2000 mile long fence.

 

This issue has been around forever. Interesting timing that conservatives all of a sudden want to make it our nation's #1 problem.

 

 

Well at least you acknowledge that they're costing us billions of dollars. Now how about using those funds to deal with our own poor people instead of letting Vicente Fox export his own poverty problem to the US?

[Texsox]

Well at least you acknowledge that they're costing us billions of dollars. Now how about using those funds to deal with our own poor people instead of letting Vicente Fox export his own poverty problem to the US?

 

As I stated, the costs would be there regardless of documented or undocumented. Our unemployement rate remains low, and has been for decades. Leading me to conclude that we actually need these workers. So how about using those fence funds to deal with our own poor people?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

As I stated, the costs would be there regardless of documented or undocumented. Our unemployement rate remains low, and has been for decades. Leading me to conclude that we actually need these workers. So how about using those fence funds to deal with our own poor people?

 

 

Id rather use monies being wasted on educating, providing health care and welfare for a group of people who don't even belong in this country in the first place.

[Texsox]

Id rather use monies being wasted on educating, providing health care and welfare for a group of people who don't even belong in this country in the first place.

 

So, explain how your program works? What are you doing with the existing population, where are the replacement workers coming from, and what are the budget implications?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

So, explain how your program works? What are you doing with the existing population, where are the replacement workers coming from, and what are the budget implications?

 

 

Ok. The NUKE_CLEVELAND immigration reform plan.

 

 

-Guest worker program. That fills the need for migrant labor picking fruit or whatever it is they're needed for and if they want to become full citizens then let them stand in line like everybody else.

 

-Border fence all along the Mexican frontier save for places where it isn't practical like over mountains. Those regions can be covered by UAV's and if anyone makes it all the way across they would be snatched up by heli-borne teams of BP agents. Have the fence guarded by Border Patrol and National Guard troops until the BP can be fully staffed and funded.

 

-Take away all social services from illegal aliens save for emergency medical care. We can recoup funds spent on that by cutting off foregin aid to Mexico and re-directing that money to paying back the states who are forced to deal with these people.

 

-Its also time to seriously crack down on business who hire illegals. Give business a 6 month grace period to purge their rolls of undocumented workers and replace them with new hires from the guest worker program. After that........ICE comes in and starts randomly checking records to ensure things are on the up and up. If caught in violation levy massive fines. Fines that would eliminate the incentive to exploit migrant labor. The only way to change bad business behavior is to hit them in the pocketbook. Additionally, ensure that these people are being paid at least the federal minimum wage.

 

-Make English the official language of this country. When my ancestors came to this country they had a choice. They could either work hard and assimilate or they would fall by the wayside. It should be no different for immigrants today. I don't see any reason why this country, or any other for that matter, should bend into 5 different contorted positions to accomodate these people.

 

 

Before you go on about too much stick and not enough carrot, remember that illegal aliens are just that. Illegal. They are criminals from the moment they set foot on U.S. soil and the Mexican government and U.S businesses are complicit in all of it. Im in favor of immigration but it has to be done in a controlled and orderly fashion. This business of people running across the border in the dead of the night has got to stop.

[EvilMonkey]

Ok. The NUKE_CLEVELAND immigration reform plan.

-Guest worker program. That fills the need for migrant labor picking fruit or whatever it is they're needed for and if they want to become full citizens then let them stand in line like everybody else.

 

-Border fence all along the Mexican frontier save for places where it isn't practical like over mountains. Those regions can be covered by UAV's and if anyone makes it all the way across they would be snatched up by heli-borne teams of BP agents. Have the fence guarded by Border Patrol and National Guard troops until the BP can be fully staffed and funded.

 

-Take away all social services from illegal aliens save for emergency medical care. We can recoup funds spent on that by cutting off foregin aid to Mexico and re-directing that money to paying back the states who are forced to deal with these people.

 

-Its also time to seriously crack down on business who hire illegals. Give business a 6 month grace period to purge their rolls of undocumented workers and replace them with new hires from the guest worker program. After that........ICE comes in and starts randomly checking records to ensure things are on the up and up. If caught in violation levy massive fines. Fines that would eliminate the incentive to exploit migrant labor. The only way to change bad business behavior is to hit them in the pocketbook. Additionally, ensure that these people are being paid at least the federal minimum wage.

 

-Make English the official language of this country. When my ancestors came to this country they had a choice. They could either work hard and assimilate or they would fall by the wayside. It should be no different for immigrants today. I don't see any reason why this country, or any other for that matter, should bend into 5 different contorted positions to accomodate these people.

Before you go on about too much stick and not enough carrot, remember that illegal aliens are just that. Illegal. They are criminals from the moment they set foot on U.S. soil and the Mexican government and U.S businesses are complicit in all of it. Im in favor of immigration but it has to be done in a controlled and orderly fashion. This business of people running across the border in the dead of the night has got to stop.

 

Bravo!

[Texsox]

Ok. The NUKE_CLEVELAND immigration reform plan.

 

 

-Guest worker program. That fills the need for migrant labor picking fruit or whatever it is they're needed for and if they want to become full citizens then let them stand in line like everybody else.

 

-Border fence all along the Mexican frontier save for places where it isn't practical like over mountains. Those regions can be covered by UAV's and if anyone makes it all the way across they would be snatched up by heli-borne teams of BP agents. Have the fence guarded by Border Patrol and National Guard troops until the BP can be fully staffed and funded.

 

-Take away all social services from illegal aliens save for emergency medical care. We can recoup funds spent on that by cutting off foregin aid to Mexico and re-directing that money to paying back the states who are forced to deal with these people.

 

-Its also time to seriously crack down on business who hire illegals. Give business a 6 month grace period to purge their rolls of undocumented workers and replace them with new hires from the guest worker program. After that........ICE comes in and starts randomly checking records to ensure things are on the up and up. If caught in violation levy massive fines. Fines that would eliminate the incentive to exploit migrant labor. The only way to change bad business behavior is to hit them in the pocketbook. Additionally, ensure that these people are being paid at least the federal minimum wage.

 

-Make English the official language of this country. When my ancestors came to this country they had a choice. They could either work hard and assimilate or they would fall by the wayside. It should be no different for immigrants today. I don't see any reason why this country, or any other for that matter, should bend into 5 different contorted positions to accomodate these people.

 

 

Before you go on about too much stick and not enough carrot, remember that illegal aliens are just that. Illegal. They are criminals from the moment they set foot on U.S. soil and the Mexican government and U.S businesses are complicit in all of it. Im in favor of immigration but it has to be done in a controlled and orderly fashion. This business of people running across the border in the dead of the night has got to stop.

 

Point one, I agree, except if they are here working, they are ahead of someone who isn't here. We have history in our country and know if they can be good citizens or not.

 

Fence, worthless when illegals are trucked in, come in along the frontiera on temp visas etc. holes can get cut, better to make legal easy enough that there is no incentive to hire illegals or be an illegal.

 

Cutting off aid to Mexico makes the problem worse. We want them to help keep drugs from getting to our users, we want them to cut pollution that reaches the US, we want them to upgrade their border crossing to help our businesses. We do not want them to have a big military, so we offer protection, etc. We want to keep them an ally. Bottom line, cutting aid to Mexico then adds a carrot to come to the US. That would not help. The better Mexico is doing, the less of an incentive there is for their population to leave.

 

I like the proposal for handling businesses. Exactly what I would recommend. I don't know if 6-months is too much or two little time. I also think there should be some sanity based on what paperwork was turned in to the employer. I find it difficult to blame a business if they are fooled by a good forgery.

 

I'm not certain what making English the official language would do. Would you fine businesses for speaking Spanish? We want our tourisim offices to speak as many different languages as possible. Down here, most of the population is bi-lingual, why force two people to speak English when they can just as easily speak Spanish? I don't want to wait in line while someone takes five minutes struggling with English when it would take 30 seconds in Spanish. I believe government should service the population, not vice versa. Assimilate? By having someone translate a government form for them? Unless you require businesses to only speak English, and what do multi-national companies do, this will only effect how the government works. Our economy is global in nature, why we would encourage isolationism, is beyond me.

[mr_genius]

 

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Cutting off aid to Mexico makes the problem worse. We want them to help keep drugs from getting to our users, we want them to cut pollution that reaches the US, we want them to upgrade their border crossing to help our businesses. We do not want them to have a big military, so we offer protection, etc. We want to keep them an ally. Bottom line, cutting aid to Mexico then adds a carrot to come to the US. That would not help. The better Mexico is doing, the less of an incentive there is for their population to leave.

 

 

Mexico has 2 main exports to the United States. Drugs and poor people. They are not going to do anything concrete to improve the situation on the border no matter how much money we give them. They simply wish to export their poverty problem to this country instead of doing something on their own to solve the problem.

 

Its the same deal with narcotics. Their government is an order of magnitude more corrupt than even the Daley administration is in Chicago. Its way past time they were punished for their misconduct.

Edited May 14, 2006 by NUKE_CLEVELAND

[samclemens]

Cutting off aid to Mexico makes the problem worse. We want them to help keep drugs from getting to our users, we want them to cut pollution that reaches the US, we want them to upgrade their border crossing to help our businesses. We do not want them to have a big military, so we offer protection, etc. We want to keep them an ally. Bottom line, cutting aid to Mexico then adds a carrot to come to the US. That would not help. The better Mexico is doing, the less of an incentive there is for their population to leave.

 

come on, man, be realistic. you really think that any money we give that country doesnt go directly into corrupt officials' pockets? and by the way, mexico is not part of the US; it's THEIR responsibility to fix their own damn economy (this is the same general arguement that libs on here oppose iraq- yes, i selectively reason on different issues). it's our job to keep out illegals. the real solution is to very strictly enforce the laws. if the gov't would actually crack down and simply enforce the immigration laws to a T, making harsh examples out of a few businesses, you would see a hell of a change in a short amount of time.

[Texsox]

Mexico has 2 main exports to the United States. Drugs and poor people. They are not going to do anything concrete to improve the situation on the border no matter how much money we give them. They simply wish to export their poverty problem to this country instead of doing something on their own to solve the problem.

 

Its the same deal with narcotics. Their government is an order of magnitude more corrupt than even the Daley administration is in Chicago. Its way past time they were punished for their misconduct.

 

If America didn't have a drug usage problem, Mexico wouldn't have to spend so much of the GNP on keeping Columbians and other SA drug cartels from terrorizing Mexico and shipping drugs to the US. Most of those drugs are coming through Mexico, no originating in Mexico. Mexico, in cooperation with US DEA, has irradicated most crops. Of course your plan to cut aid to Mexico would cause them to cut back on drug enforcement, worsening the problem. Mexico is fighting, and making great strides in dealing with the drug cartels. Of course they are using resources they could be using to help their poor. Americans stop using illegal drugs, there is no market, no smuggling, and Mexico wins.

 

It is way past the time for America to recognize the problems that America's illegal drug usage problem has around the world. When feeding drugs to Americans, who are willing to spend huge amounts of money for them, is more lucrative than selling legitimate crops, you have to stop the demand.

 

BTW, natural gas and oil are big sellers also. Mexico is also a huge producer of food crops to the US. US aid has gone to improving the conditions in the fields, which results in better produce for us.

 

Vincente Fox is working hard to produce a middle class in Mexico. You are correct, corruption is screwing the average Mexican. But abandoning Mexico and letting them fall farther behind, undermines out security and hurts all of North America.

 

 

 

come on, man, be realistic. you really think that any money we give that country doesnt go directly into corrupt officials' pockets? and by the way, mexico is not part of the US; it's THEIR responsibility to fix their own damn economy (this is the same general arguement that libs on here oppose iraq- yes, i selectively reason on different issues). it's our job to keep out illegals. the real solution is to very strictly enforce the laws. if the gov't would actually crack down and simply enforce the immigration laws to a T, making harsh examples out of a few businesses, you would see a hell of a change in a short amount of time.

 

Sam, I see the projects. I've worked with Mexico officials are Director of the South Texas Manufacturers Association. I read in the papers the drug busts. I talk to people who live there. I worked for years in Mexico. Sure Mexico has some corrupt officials, so do American charities.

 

A prosperous Mexico helps us. It offers markets for our exports, for one.

[mr_genius]

If America didn't have a drug usage problem, Mexico wouldn't have to spend so much of the GNP on keeping Columbians and other SA drug cartels from terrorizing Mexico and shipping drugs to the US. Most of those drugs are coming through Mexico, no originating in Mexico. Mexico, in cooperation with US DEA, has irradicated most crops. Of course your plan to cut aid to Mexico would cause them to cut back on drug enforcement, worsening the problem. Mexico is fighting, and making great strides in dealing with the drug cartels. Of course they are using resources they could be using to help their poor. Americans stop using illegal drugs, there is no market, no smuggling, and Mexico wins.

 

It is way past the time for America to recognize the problems that America's illegal drug usage problem has around the world. When feeding drugs to Americans, who are willing to spend huge amounts of money for them, is more lucrative than selling legitimate crops, you have to stop the demand.

 

BTW, natural gas and oil are big sellers also. Mexico is also a huge producer of food crops to the US. US aid has gone to improving the conditions in the fields, which results in better produce for us.

 

Vincente Fox is working hard to produce a middle class in Mexico. You are correct, corruption is screwing the average Mexican. But abandoning Mexico and letting them fall farther behind, undermines out security and hurts all of North America.

Sam, I see the projects. I've worked with Mexico officials are Director of the South Texas Manufacturers Association. I read in the papers the drug busts. I talk to people who live there. I worked for years in Mexico. Sure Mexico has some corrupt officials, so do American charities.

 

lol

 

you might be the biggest apologist for mexico i have ever met. no offense.

 

oh, and i agree with you on the drug issue. prohibition doesn't work.

Edited May 15, 2006 by mr_genius

[Texsox]

lol

 

you might be the biggest apologist for mexico i have ever met. no offense.

 

oh, and i agree with you on the drug issue. prohibition doesn't work.

 

No offense taken. I'm the only one here who has worked in Mexico, lives on the border, has friends on both sides of the border. I see firsthand the good, not just the bad, in immigration and tourism. I know first hand the destruction that will occur along the border without a free flow back and forth between the interior borders.

[YASNY]

After all this, I still say build the damn wall.

[southsider2k5]

As I stated, the costs would be there regardless of documented or undocumented. Our unemployement rate remains low, and has been for decades. Leading me to conclude that we actually need these workers. So how about using those fence funds to deal with our own poor people?

 

Except that these illegal aliens are BECOMING our own poor people...

[Texsox]

Except that these illegal aliens are BECOMING our own poor people...

 

Is it the person that is doing the job that creates poor people, or the wages that these jobs pay? Would American bus boys not be poor? Unemployment is, and has been, very low. It seems our economy needs these jobs filled. If we do not allow for immigrant labor, who is going to do these jobs? Will Americans pick up the slack and work two jobs? Will college students take a couple years off their studies and become migrant workers? Should we raise the retirement age and have grandpa working in a slaughter house?

 

I keep hearing about the poverty problem, but the solution isn't someone else working the job, anyone else working the job would be poor. The solution is either raising the wages, (which is usually against conservative business philosophy), and getting Americans to accept careers as manual laborors, or building a guest worker program where immigrants use these jobs as their ticket to citizenship. Why are we not embracing the fact that the American education system produces children that offer more potential than manual labor? Our children do not have to toil at these jobs, and I for one am glad.