Mexicans Contribution To Our Economy

[Texsox]

Most people ... Most ... want to stop illegal immigration, not just immigration.

 

Right, including you and me. And I look at illegal vs legal this way. And I know you will be one of these that will at least understand my point, although you may or may not agree. There are some laws that are Biblical in nature. Murder, stealing, etc. Those are wrong, have been forever. Then there are things that are only illegal because some folks in Washington say they are wrong. Is it illegal for an 20-year old to drink? That changes based on where on this planet you are standing. I don't see any Biblical guidance in immigration, so we have to do what is right for the majority. I also want to do what is right for America first. Our disagreement is what is right for America and what is an acceptable method to combat the "crime" that is created with our laws.

 

Someone walks from point A to point B. Is it legal? Again, that depends on what someone in Washington decides. We decide what is legal and illegal immigration. We could decide to throw open the border and call that legal. That would be a disaster, we all agree. So the debate is what should be legal and what should be illegal. I believe in allowing as many as can support themselves, with a program that would offer citizenship based on a set criteria. I also believe that would do enough to solve this problem and that a wall and turning my backyard into a military zone is unnecessary.

 

 

 

 

Ah, having our cake and eating it too I see. Where exactly should we keep putting people, without plowing under farm land? Higher highrises? Also how are we going to feed more people, with less farmland, meanwhile importing less food and growing more of our own. Sounds like a little self-contradictory to me.

 

 

 

MOST don't want to stop immigration. They want to stop UNCONTROLED, ILLEGAL immigration. BIG BIG difference between the two. I haven't seen one person on here at all say that ALL immigration should be stopped. If there has been, I would love for you to find me a link.

 

I agree with you 100% on that. But, from seeing major operations getting busted down here, we should make stopping CONTROLLED, illegal immigration our first priority. And some did mention deporting all the legals. You know enforce the law and all that.

 

Getting to the food, the problem is as we plow up close to urban center farmland, we are not creating far from urban center farmland. It isn't that we don't have the land, it is farmers are selling out and quiting the industry because over seas production is cheaper and year round, especially in South America. Does that make sense?

 

The other issue is the mega-corporate owed farms are not planting the diversity of crops that happened with smaller, less centralized agriculture. The gamble is these crops are not vulnerable to a specific disease.

[southsider2k5]

Right, including you and me. And I look at illegal vs legal this way. And I know you will be one of these that will at least understand my point, although you may or may not agree. There are some laws that are Biblical in nature. Murder, stealing, etc. Those are wrong, have been forever. Then there are things that are only illegal because some folks in Washington say they are wrong. Is it illegal for an 20-year old to drink? That changes based on where on this planet you are standing. I don't see any Biblical guidance in immigration, so we have to do what is right for the majority. I also want to do what is right for America first. Our disagreement is what is right for America and what is an acceptable method to combat the "crime" that is created with our laws.

 

Someone walks from point A to point B. Is it legal? Again, that depends on what someone in Washington decides. We decide what is legal and illegal immigration. We could decide to throw open the border and call that legal. That would be a disaster, we all agree. So the debate is what should be legal and what should be illegal. I believe in allowing as many as can support themselves, with a program that would offer citizenship based on a set criteria. I also believe that would do enough to solve this problem and that a wall and turning my backyard into a military zone is unnecessary.

I agree with you 100% on that. But, from seeing major operations getting busted down here, we should make stopping CONTROLLED, illegal immigration our first priority. And some did mention deporting all the legals. You know enforce the law and all that.

 

Getting to the food, the problem is as we plow up close to urban center farmland, we are not creating far from urban center farmland. It isn't that we don't have the land, it is farmers are selling out and quiting the industry because over seas production is cheaper and year round, especially in South America. Does that make sense?

 

The other issue is the mega-corporate owed farms are not planting the diversity of crops that happened with smaller, less centralized agriculture. The gamble is these crops are not vulnerable to a specific disease.

 

Again deporting all illegals is very different than stopping all immigration. No one has called for stopping immigration. You are lumping it all together when it is apples and oranges.

[Cerbaho-WG]

Ah, having our cake and eating it too I see. Where exactly should we keep putting people, without plowing under farm land? Higher highrises? Also how are we going to feed more people, with less farmland, meanwhile importing less food and growing more of our own. Sounds like a little self-contradictory to me.

 

Marginal Revolution...for the win!

 

http://www.mercatus.org/article.php/1690.html

[southsider2k5]

Marginal Revolution...for the win!

 

http://www.mercatus.org/article.php/1690.html

 

Do they create their own land too?

 

Do they create their own land too?

 

Also they make the assumption AGAIN that as legal immigrants they will still get paid a static wage. There will be no more illegals working for sub-minimum wage when/if they are made legal. It blows the cornerstone out of this guys arguement about keeping prices down.

[mr_genius]

as the population increases, so too should our capability to feed them.

 

 

yea, because americans aren't eating enough as it is

 

lets make the country even fatter!

[Cerbaho-WG]

Also they make the assumption AGAIN that as legal immigrants they will still get paid a static wage. There will be no more illegals working for sub-minimum wage when/if they are made legal. It blows the cornerstone out of this guys arguement about keeping prices down.

 

What the hell are you even talking about? Do you honestly believe that the wage increase once these people are legal would be so great that it would monumentally cause costs to increase? That's utter bulls***, and I'd love for you to actually back up your argument to blow these "guys", both of whom are economics professors at UC Berkley and Geroge Mason (Card and Cowen), out of the water. Once legal, illegals won't be being paid $20/hr, it's unskilled labor for crying out loud.

[Texsox]

Again deporting all illegals is very different than stopping all immigration. No one has called for stopping immigration. You are lumping it all together when it is apples and oranges.

 

Yes. Seems obvious to me.

Yes, no one.

I didn't mean to lump deportation and immigration into one, sorry if it came off that way. The only thing connecting them is what to do with the current population while deciding on the new immigrants. I believe if you are already here, haven't been in any trouble, have a good employment history, you should stay before someone standing at the gate. And since no one is advocating deportation, I guess we all agree. Unless we want to add a few million to our prison population.

 

Any more thoughts on the food situation? I wasn't trying to have my cake and eat it too.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Yes. Seems obvious to me.

Yes, no one.

I didn't mean to lump deportation and immigration into one, sorry if it came off that way. The only thing connecting them is what to do with the current population while deciding on the new immigrants. I believe if you are already here, haven't been in any trouble, have a good employment history, you should stay before someone standing at the gate. And since no one is advocating deportation, I guess we all agree. Unless we want to add a few million to our prison population.

 

 

Tex. We've been over this ground before. Take away their social benefits and their ill-gotten jobs and they will leave on their own.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Take away their social benefits and their ill-gotten jobs and they will leave on their own.

 

True, we have been through this before.

 

I see no 12 million+ workforce ready and eager to do the jobs that they do at minimum wage. They're needed more than you're willing to admit.

[Texsox]

Tex. We've been over this ground before. Take away their social benefits and their ill-gotten jobs and they will leave on their own.

 

Make them legal if they have a clean criminal history, a good job history, and can demonstrate the ability to support them and we won't have to gamble that the replacement person is a decent person.

[mr_genius]

Make them legal if they have a clean criminal history, a good job history, and can demonstrate the ability to support them and we won't have to gamble that the replacement person is a decent person.

 

 

they also need to pay a fine

[Texsox]

they also need to pay a fine

 

Sure. How about community service projects instead, that is the option we offer here for low income people?

[mr_genius]

Sure. How about community service projects instead, that is the option we offer here for low income people?

 

 

na, they need to pay the fine.

[southsider2k5]

What the hell are you even talking about? Do you honestly believe that the wage increase once these people are legal would be so great that it would monumentally cause costs to increase? That's utter bulls***, and I'd love for you to actually back up your argument to blow these "guys", both of whom are economics professors at UC Berkley and Geroge Mason (Card and Cowen), out of the water. Once legal, illegals won't be being paid $20/hr, it's unskilled labor for crying out loud.

 

Look you can be in awe of the diplomas on the wall, but I don't care what they say, there are some fundemental at work that here that go past all of the glittering generalities of the arguements. The biggest thing is that wages and costs will rise if these 12 million people are made citizens. Right now by and large illegal immigrants are working at subminimum wage paying jobs, and that is why the rest of the country is getting a benefit from their work. It doesn't to take a rocket scientist to realize that if you are paying someone $3 an hour to pick fruit, who has no leverage to force his employer to pay even minimum wage, let alone conform to OSHA standards, let alone conform to EPA standards, or he risks being deported. Take away those threats, and you now have the all of those factors added in as costs directly to the employer. Going from paying $3, and conforming to no governmental standards is a hell of a lot cheaper than $6 an hour, plus making the safety and enviormental grades. Throw all that together and you just doubled your costs for wages alone, not to mention the other costs. Its also common sense to realize that those costs get passed on to the consumer.

 

They also seem to forget that illegals can only be so much of a burden on governmental programs, because they aren't allowed to participate in so many of them. They can get welfare, medicare, medicade, social security, unemployment, long term disability etc. You don't believe that if they were eligible for those, that they would continue to not use them right? That's what the protests are about. They want government programs, they want fair wages, they want safe workplaces. Its a braindead assumption to use facts and figures for an illegal shadow labor force, as a static comparision for a work force that would suddenly be on an equal footing with the rest of the country. It would be like comparing what your wage potential was at age 14, and at age 21.

[Texsox]

Southsider, what percentage of the illegals do you believe are working without paperwork and what percentage are working with false papers? And what do you base that number on? I am in an area where it is very easy to hire undocumented workers, I am within the 50 mile range where you can visit but your aren't suppose to work. I've enver heard of anyone paying that low. How can anyone live in America on $120 per week and zero government benefits?

 

Far more are working on false or ake social security numbers and getting paid minimum wage or better. This allows the employer to have some plausible denyability if they were to get caught.

 

I do agree that once legal, these workers will be more likely to apply for all of the government programs there wage status would allow.