Mark Buehrle and his "slump"

[BlackBetsy]

Reconstructed inning.

 

Single

out

Single

out

Single -- Run

out

---------- End of inning

 

------- Theoretical start of second inning.

Double

Double -- Run

Single

Single -- Run

out

out

 

One of the deficiencies in the Earned run stat is it completely overlooks situations like this where the pitcher is REALLY REALLY bad.

 

Hmm, given that Castillo's grounder would likely have been a double play with Juan turning it, I think the sequence would have been:

 

Single

1-6-3 DP

Single

Out.

 

- End of Inning -

 

Single

Out

Double

Double (two runs)

Single (run)

Single

Out

Out

 

- End of Inning -

 

That looks like a 3-3 ballgame to me. I agree that the earned run rule is a bit weird, and it's probably not really meaningful anymore in a game in which there are 80-120 errors per team per season, instead of 230-300 per year. Por ejemplo.

[WCSox]

The gun had him at 98-99 consistantly

 

Yes, I forgot to mention that. That's great news as well.

[Controlled Chaos]

Ozzie just said on the pregame that he thought Buehrle was tipping his pitches. They worked something out and he was able to hide the ball better or something.

 

The way they were hitting him I was thinking this too, but who knows.

[Kalapse]

Alright...I'll bite.

 

Who is an "ACE"?

1. Johan Santana

2. Roy Halladay

3. Jose Contreras

 

4. Pedro Martinez

5. Chris Carpenter

6. Roy Oswalt

 

Potential to be an ace:

1. Rich Harden

2. Carlos Zambrano

3. Mark Prior

4. Javier Vazquez (needs to be more consistent)

5. Jake Peavy

6. Scott Kazmir

7. Jeremy Bonderman

8. Josh Beckett

9. Felix Hernandez

[WCSox]

1. Johan Santana

2. Roy Halladay

3. Jose Contreras

 

4. Pedro Martinez

5. Chris Carpenter

6. Roy Oswalt

 

Potential to be an ace:

1. Rich Harden

2. Carlos Zambrano

3. Mark Prior

4. Javier Vazquez (needs to be more consistent)

5. Jake Peavy

6. Scott Kazmir

7. Jeremy Bonderman

8. Josh Beckett

9. Felix Hernandez

 

I generally agree, although Oswalt and Jose are both borderline top tier, IMO. We're at an interesting time in MLB where the "old guard" of studs (Clemens, Randy Johnson, Pedro, Maddux) have lost a degree of dominance due to age/injuries. We're in a "changing of the guard" situation and are waiting for some of the new potential studs (Oswalt, Carpenter, Halladay, etc.) to do it over a long period of time. IMO, Santana is the only guy that I'd put in that top tier without question.

 

Anyway, I'd rank Buehrle right there with Pedro and Zambrano. Great stuff and dominant at times, but not quite Cy Young material (or not anymore, in Pedro's case). Of course, all three are good enough to be a #1 on most teams.

Edited May 15, 2006 by WCSox

[Kalapse]

I generally agree, although Oswalt and Jose are both borderline top tier, IMO. We're at an interesting time in MLB where the "old guard" of studs (Clemens, Randy Johnson, Pedro) have lost a step due to age/injuries.

 

Anyway, I'd rank Buehrle right there with Pedro and Zambrano. Great stuff and dominant at times, but not quite Cy Young material (or not anymore, in Pedro's case).

Actually Pedro still is Cy Young material, I'm not sure why people don't think he is anymore, he's 5-0 with a 3.19 ERA and a .86 WHIP! (sick). Buehlre does not have great stuff, he's not really anywhere near the caliber of a Zambrano or Pedro in terms of stuff but that's alright, he's an incredibly smart pitcher and usually locates his pitches well especially his fastball and his curve.

 

Contreras and Oswalt are borderline, you're right especially Contreras whom has not been great for very long and Oswalt who has injury concerns. IMO there are 3 "Aces" in each league with 1 borderline Ace from both league includeded.

Edited May 15, 2006 by Kalapse

[WCSox]

Actually Pedro still is Cy Young material, I'm not sure why people don't think he is anymore, he's 5-0 with a 3.19 ERA and a .86 WHIP! (sick).

 

I think that a strong argument can be made for that. I thought that Pedro's days as a #1 were over after he blew the lead in Game 7 of the '03 ALCS. But he came back strong in the '04 WS and had a terrific '05. And he's doing very well so far this year (although he's in the NL again and the majority of the hitters are not familiar with his stuff). I'm not sure that he's on Santana's level at this point, but if he can put up two more really good years, I think that he'll get into Cooperstown.

[Kalapse]

I think that a strong argument can be made for that. I thought that Pedro's days as a #1 were over after he blew the lead in Game 7 of the '03 ALCS. But he came back strong in the '04 WS and had a terrific '05. And he's doing very well so far this year (although he's in the NL again and the majority of the hitters are not familiar with his stuff). I'm not sure that he's on Santana's level at this point, but if he can put up two more really good years, I think that he'll get into Cooperstown.

Well, seeing how he's the most dominant pitcher of his time and had arguably the greatest single season by any pitcher in the history of baseball in 2000 with his 1.74 ERA, .73 WHIP (best ever) and 285 ERA+ (best ever) he should have his spot in Cooperstown cemented as of today.

[hammerhead johnson]

Actually Pedro still is Cy Young material, I'm not sure why people don't think he is anymore, he's 5-0 with a 3.19 ERA and a .86 WHIP! (sick).

 

Other than WcSox, who thinks that he's not an ace?

 

He only leads the majors in WHIP and strikeouts.

[WCSox]

Well, seeing how he's the most dominant pitcher of his time

 

Um, not really. Pedro was "the most dominant pitcher of his time" for about four years and was never the same after the injury. Randy Johnson had a phenominal stretch from '97-'02 and has five Cy Youngs. Maddux was a bad-ass in from '92-'98 and has four Cy Youngs under his belt. Clemens had a few different dominant periods ('86-'92 in Boston, '97 and '98 in Toronto, and '03 and '04 in Houston) and has a whopping SEVEN Cy Youngs. All three have rings and the latter two are members of the 300-win club, which Pedro won't touch. Pedro was probably the best pictcher in baseball history from '97-'00, but some of his peers had dominant stretches as well, along with better numbers over the long-term. So I don't think that he'd necessarily be a first-ballot lock for Cooperstown if he blew out his shoulder tomorrow. Possibly, but not definitely.

 

That said, Pedro's '97-'01 numbers, three Cy Youngs, 200 wins, and helping the BoSox get their first ring in 86 years will get him in.

Edited May 15, 2006 by WCSox

[hammerhead johnson]

I think Pedro Martinez will get into Cooperstown.

 

OMG, you're really going out on a limb with this statement.

[Kalapse]

Other than WcSox, who thinks that he's not an ace?

 

He only leads the majors in WHIP and strikeouts.

I constantly hear people mentioning him in the same light as Randy Johnson and other old s***ty pitchers, a lot of people think he's mediocre simply because they don't bother to watch him pitch or even check his numbers, I mean a WHIP in the .80's isn't all that good is it? is it?

[WCSox]

OMG, you're really going out on a limb with this statement.

 

OMG, you're so brilliant.

[Kalapse]

Um, not really. Pedro was "the most dominant pitcher of his time" for about four years and was never the same after the injury. Randy Johnson had a phenominal stretch from '97-'02 and has five Cy Youngs. Maddux was a bad-ass in from '92-'98 and has four Cy Youngs under his belt. Clemens had a few different dominant periods ('86-'92 in Boston, '97 and '98 in Toronto, and '03 and '04 in Houston) and has a whopping SEVEN Cy Youngs. All three have rings and the latter two are members of the 300-win club, which Pedro won't touch. Pedro was probably the best pictcher in baseball history from '97-'00, but some of his peers had dominant stretches as well, along with better numbers over the long-term. So I don't think that he'd necessarily be a first-ballot lock for Cooperstown if he blew out his shoulder tomorrow. Possibly, but not definitely.

 

That said, Pedro's '97-'01 numbers, three Cy Youngs, 200 wins, and helping the BoSox get their first ring in 86 years will get him in.

Honestly I could throw a bunch of stats at you like WHIP and ERA+, I could say that Cy Youngs aren't always awarded to the most deserving pitcher, wins are a pretty meaningless stat for pitchers and throw out a Sandy Koufax comparison or two and probably prove that Pedro is the best pitcher of his time (even though he does not have the longevity of others) and possibly the greatest of all time but I seriously don't have the patience to go through all the work.

[hammerhead johnson]

I constantly hear people mentioning him in the same light as Randy Johnson and other old s***ty pitchers, a lot of people think he's mediocre simply because they don't bother to watch him pitch or even check his numbers, I mean a WHIP in the .80's isn't all that good is it? is it?

 

Yeah, and I think that his .164 BAA is tops in the majors too.

 

In my best Donnie Brasco voice: Forget about it

[WCSox]

I constantly hear people mentioning him in the same light as Randy Johnson and other old s***ty pitchers, a lot of people think he's mediocre simply because they don't bother to watch him pitch or even check his numbers, I mean a WHIP in the .80's isn't all that good is it? is it?

 

It'd be great if he did it over the course of a full season.

 

Like I said, Pedro's looked like a different pitcher since the '04 WS. His numbers are obviously going to be better in the NL, so let's see what he does this year. If he can repeat last season, I'll jump on the "Pedro's back" bandwagon.

[Chisoxfn]

Last two posts were removed and that should be warning enough for you two. Don't take it any further.

[Kalapse]

Also just to preface everything I posted (even though it's after the fact) I am probably one of the biggest pedro fans you'll find, grew up watching him dominate every great hitter of the 90's and fell in love with the way he played the game.

[Chisoxfn]

Also just to preface everything I posted (even though it's after the fact) I am probably one of the biggest pedro fans you'll find, grew up watching him dominate every great hitter of the 90's and fell in love with the way he played the game.

I feel the same way you do. In fact I've long said in his prime I don't think there was a better pitcher in the history of baseball.

[hammerhead johnson]

Also just to preface everything I posted (even though it's after the fact) I am probably one of the biggest pedro fans you'll find, grew up watching him dominate every great hitter of the 90's and fell in love with the way he played the game.

 

Likewise.

[WCSox]

Also just to preface everything I posted (even though it's after the fact) I am probably one of the biggest pedro fans you'll find, grew up watching him dominate every great hitter of the 90's and fell in love with the way he played the game.

 

No problem with that. But I think it's safe to say that, in the eyes of many, Pedro wasn't a "lock" for Cooperstown as early as two years ago. That said, I think that he deserves to get in and hope that he does.

[RockRaines]

Last two posts were removed and that should be warning enough for you two. Don't take it any further.

No way...who woulda thought there would be innapropriate posts with this crowd.

[hammerhead johnson]

No way...who woulda thought there would be innapropriate posts with this crowd.

 

Come on, my inappropriate posts are few and far between.

[Reddy]

It'd be great if he did it over the course of a full season.

 

Like I said, Pedro's looked like a different pitcher since the '04 WS. His numbers are obviously going to be better in the NL, so let's see what he does this year. If he can repeat last season, I'll jump on the "Pedro's back" bandwagon.

 

come on man, it can be argued that pedro is one of the best pitchers EVER - not just of his time. I'm not sure of the full argument (my bro's a mets fan so i can give it to ya later). But his career ERA is around 2.70 and he's gonna get to 3000 K's this year. True he doesnt hit 100 anymore - barely every hits 93, but he STILL has an era under 3 and STILL strikes out 200+ a year. he's as nasty as ever and i see no reason to NOT call him an ace

[WCSox]

come on man, it can be argued that pedro is one of the best pitchers EVER - not just of his time.

 

Sure, I agree that he's one of the greatest of all time. But I'm not sure that he's "the most dominant pitcher of his generation", considering that Clemens, Johnson, and Maddux are part of that group.

 

he's as nasty as ever

 

No way. He doesn't have the 97 mph fastball that he did before the injury in '01. But he's still one of the smartest pitchers in baseball and can get hitters out, even without dominant stuff.

 

and i see no reason to NOT call him an ace

 

Since I call Buehrle an "ace" as well, neither do I.