Bush to order National Guard to border

[YASNY]

The situation on the southern border is not a good one. But it's certainly not at a turning point or expecting abrupt change or deterioration. If we did absolutely nothing right now, what would happen? The same number of immigrants who snuck across last week would sneak across this week. And so on through the end of the year, with only a little bit of variance. If you expected that in 1 week, 10x that number would try to cross, ok, that would be a turning point, and a crisis. But right now, the situation is at least stable. It's not stable in a good way, but it's not getting dramatically worse.

 

Of course, the situation is not good, and it is time to do something about it in terms of legislation. Guest worker program allowing a path to citizenship, increased enforcment against businesses hiring illegals, a program to register those who are already here, and criminalizing future illegal immigration would be logical steps. But anywho, it's certianly not a crisis. A crisis will be what happens when there's an earthquake in San Francisco or L.A. and the California National Guard is 1/2 in Iraq and 1/3 sitting along the southern border with 95% of it's equipment gone.

 

Well, the situation on the border is damn sure not acceptable. Also, I was under the impression that illegal immigration has always been criminalized.

[Balta1701]

Well, the situation on the border is damn sure not acceptable. Also, I was under the impression that illegal immigration has always been criminalized.

It's neither a felony nor a misdemenor. Basically you're picked up and sent home, there's no punishment phase at all (which, if we did that right now, would require jailing another 15 million folks, of course).

[YASNY]

It's neither a felony nor a misdemenor. Basically you're picked up and sent home, there's no punishment phase at all (which, if we did that right now, would require jailing another 15 million folks, of course).

 

If the borders were secure, picking up and sending them home would be punishment.

[southsider2k5]

The situation on the southern border is not a good one. But it's certainly not at a turning point or expecting abrupt change or deterioration. If we did absolutely nothing right now, what would happen? The same number of immigrants who snuck across last week would sneak across this week. And so on through the end of the year, with only a little bit of variance. If you expected that in 1 week, 10x that number would try to cross, ok, that would be a turning point, and a crisis. But right now, the situation is at least stable. It's not stable in a good way, but it's not getting dramatically worse.

 

Of course, the situation is not good, and it is time to do something about it in terms of legislation. Guest worker program allowing a path to citizenship, increased enforcment against businesses hiring illegals, a program to register those who are already here, and criminalizing future illegal immigration would be logical steps. But anywho, it's certianly not a crisis. A crisis will be what happens when there's an earthquake in San Francisco or L.A. and the California National Guard is 1/2 in Iraq and 1/3 sitting along the southern border with 95% of it's equipment gone.

 

500,000 people per year enter the US illegally through this specific border region. I guess can we can play the definition of "is" game here over what a "crisis" is, but the fact remains that there are an estimated 12 million people here illegally, with almost 2000 new people PER DAY arriving still. Don't call it a crisis if you like, but I call it a big f***ing problem.

[Balta1701]

500,000 people per year enter the US illegally through this specific border region. I guess can we can play the definition of "is" game here over what a "crisis" is, but the fact remains that there are an estimated 12 million people here illegally, with almost 2000 new people PER DAY arriving still. Don't call it a crisis if you like, but I call it a big f***ing problem.

Oh, you're right, it's a big f***ing problem, and there needs to be a legislative fix to it before it becomes even harder to fix the problem, but by my definition, it's no crisis.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

The situation on the southern border is not a good one. But it's certainly not at a turning point or expecting abrupt change or deterioration. If we did absolutely nothing right now, what would happen? The same number of immigrants who snuck across last week would sneak across this week. And so on through the end of the year, with only a little bit of variance. If you expected that in 1 week, 10x that number would try to cross, ok, that would be a turning point, and a crisis. But right now, the situation is at least stable. It's not stable in a good way, but it's not getting dramatically worse.

 

Of course, the situation is not good, and it is time to do something about it in terms of legislation. Guest worker program allowing a path to citizenship, increased enforcment against businesses hiring illegals, a program to register those who are already here, and criminalizing future illegal immigration would be logical steps. But anywho, it's certianly not a crisis. A crisis will be what happens when there's an earthquake in San Francisco or L.A. and the California National Guard is 1/2 in Iraq and 1/3 sitting along the southern border with 95% of it's equipment gone.

 

 

Using your own defenition of a crisis the situation on the border certainly fits.

 

1. A crucial or decisive point or situation; a turning point.

 

The immigration debate has been brewing for years and years and the Minutemen protests starting last year and that are ongoing have made this issue a center of attention. That and the fact that the country is being overrun by literally millions of people WHO DONT f***ING BELONG HERE!!!!!!!

 

2. An unstable condition, as in political, social, or economic affairs, involving an impending abrupt or decisive change.

 

Illegal aliens have taxed state budgets to the breaking point. They cost states billions of dollars a year in services and provide next to nothing in return. Add to that the crime and general lawlessness caused by their presence on the border. Families living and working all along the border are constantly terrorized and made victims of crime committed by these border jumpers and they're fed up with it.

 

3. An emotionally stressful event or traumatic change in a person's life.

 

See above point in reference to residents of border areas.

 

4. A point in a story or drama when a conflict reaches its highest tension and must be resolved.

 

Make no mistake, this has been a long conflict and its really sad that it took a small band of people, reviled by the leftist bleeding hearts, to bring this issue into focus and get the government to take concrete action to deal with the problem. The people aren't going to stand for thousands of border jumpers streaming across the frontier anymore. They want action.

 

 

Now on to your National Guard thesis. Currently, the National Guard has 456,800 men and women under arms. Of that number there are about 71,000 mobilized currently. That's not even 20% of the force. This according to the Chief of the National Guard Bureau.

 

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationwor...world-headlines

 

If you had paid attention to the plan put forth by Bush you would also have caught the little detail that Guard members would be pulled from ALL states and not just from the border states.

[YASNY]

No NUKE. It is really great that a small band people, reviled by the leftists, were able bring the issue into focus.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

No NUKE. It is really great that a small band people, reviled by the leftists, were able bring the issue into focus.

 

 

It is but it isin't. Shame on our elected officials for pandering to business interests and the Hispanic community for all these years and allowing this problem to fester.

[YASNY]

It is but it isin't. Shame on our elected officials for pandering to business interests and the Hispanic community for all these years and allowing this problem to fester.

 

We let them do it.

[Balta1701]

Using your own defenition of a crisis the situation on the border certainly fits.

The immigration debate has been brewing for years and years and the Minutemen protests starting last year and that are ongoing have made this issue a center of attention. That and the fact that the country is being overrun by literally millions of people WHO DONT f***ING BELONG HERE!!!!!!!

Making something a political issue does not make it a crisis.

 

Illegal aliens have taxed state budgets to the breaking point. They cost states billions of dollars a year in services and provide next to nothing in return. Add to that the crime and general lawlessness caused by their presence on the border. Families living and working all along the border are constantly terrorized and made victims of crime committed by these border jumpers and they're fed up with it.

See above point in reference to residents of border areas.

In the current fiscal year, 42 states are expecting to run budget surpluses, totalling somewhere in the neighborhood of $29 billion dollars.

 

Now on to your National Guard thesis. Currently, the National Guard has 456,800 men and women under arms. Of that number there are about 71,000 mobilized currently. That's not even 20% of the force. This according to the Chief of the National Guard Bureau.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationwor...world-headlines

If you had paid attention to the plan put forth by Bush you would also have caught the little detail that Guard members would be pulled from ALL states and not just from the border states.

Currently, over 60% of the equipment of the national guard has been deployed to Iraq. According to some reports, for several key items (up to 220), the guard has less than 10% of what it needs. Michael Chertoff had this to say a few months ago about using the Guard on the border:

"Why don't you put the National Guard on the border to back up the border patrol and stop the bleeding, and then start to increase the Border Patrol, the high-tech and all of that?" O’Reilly asked. . . .

 

"Well, the National Guard is really, first of all, not trained for that mission," Chertoff told O'Reilly. "I mean, the fact of the matter is the border is a special place. There are special challenges that are faced there."

 

Chertoff added that that it would take a huge amount of National Guard troops, that they would need new training. But couldn’t the National Guard pull it off, O'Reilly asked?

 

"I think it would be a horribly over-expensive and very difficult way to manage this problem," Chertoff said. "Unless you would be prepared to leave those people in the National Guard day and night for month after month after month, you would eventually have to come to grips with the challenge in a more comprehensive way."

And finally, in terms of California alone, in 1991, the L.A. Riots required the use of some 10,000+ national guard soldiers to quell that mess. Currently, according to the National Guard Association of California, the California Army National Guard only consists of about 15,000 soldiers, and over 5,000 of those are on overseas deployment. In the event of a major earthquake right now, if every single available soldier of the California guard was sent into action, we could barely muster the same strength as it took to quell the L.A. riots, and those soldiers would be going into action with 30% of their equipment.

 

I'd also like to note that my prediction yesterday that this would only make passing a comprehensive bill harder seems to be resonating with at least 1 Congressman.

 

"If [bush] had done this two years ago, and we could see some real results, that might improve the environment for a debate about what do we do now," said Rep. Walter B. Jones (R-N.C.).

 

Jones said he did not believe a National Guard deployment would do anything to get the House to consider a guest worker program or a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. "To me, this is like, 'Well, look what I'm doing for you. Now, pass my bill,' " he said.

 

No NUKE. It is really great that a small band people, reviled by the leftists, were able bring the issue into focus.

And those large bands of immigrants rallying against the House bill had nothing to do with bringing focus on this issue?

Edited May 16, 2006 by Balta1701

[YASNY]

And those large bands of immigrants rallying against the House bill had nothing to do with bringing focus on this issue?

 

It got some Americans focused on the issue. Like when the flew the Mexican flag above the US flag. Flew the US flag upside down as a symbol of disrespect. Yes, I'll give you that point, they helped "focus" the issue.

[southsider2k5]

It got some Americans focused on the issue. Like when the flew the Mexican flag above the US flag. Flew the US flag upside down as a symbol of disrespect. Yes, I'll give you that point, they helped "focus" the issue.

 

Or maybe even

 

4. A point in a story or drama when a conflict reaches its highest tension and must be resolved.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

So you people are in favor of the minutemen? Same ones with the ties to hate groups?

[Balta1701]

So you're telling me that this is only a crisis in the literary sense? Damn, we ought to send the National Guard in to protect people from the Davinci Code too.

[YASNY]

So you're telling me that this is only a crisis in the literary sense? Damn, we ought to send the National Guard in to protect people from the Davinci Code too.

 

Nothing literary about it. We are overrun with illegals and have open borders. Their little May Day party woke up a lot of Americans. Now, there is focus on the issue.

Edited May 16, 2006 by YASNY

[Cknolls]

It's neither a felony nor a misdemenor. Basically you're picked up and sent home, there's no punishment phase at all (which, if we did that right now, would require jailing another 15 million folks, of course).

 

Do we have tents that big?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

So you people are in favor of the minutemen? Same ones with the ties to hate groups?

 

 

I suppose then it would be a fair question to ask you if you are in favor of these Mexican seperatist groups who go around saying "Gringo's out!!!!"

 

 

Trouble is that the Minutemen are nothing like the fire-breathing racists that the leftists portray them as. They are a group of concerned citizens who are tired of the Federal Government ignoring what is a huge problem in our country.

[southsider2k5]

I suppose then it would be a fair question to ask you if you are in favor of these Mexican seperatist groups who go around saying "Gringo's out!!!!"

Trouble is that the Minutemen are nothing like the fire-breathing racists that the leftists portray them as. They are a group of concerned citizens who are tired of the Federal Government ignoring what is a huge problem in our country.

 

Well to be fair there is a pretty big racist contingent in there... There is no doubt in my mind we don't want citizens running around with guns patroling anything. That's called anarchy, and it is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place. On the other hand, I have zero problem with the National Guard protecting our borders, as well, they are the National Guard.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I suppose then it would be a fair question to ask you if you are in favor of these Mexican seperatist groups who go around saying "Gringo's out!!!!"

 

How would that be a fair question if I never said I supported them but a couple of you did say you were glad the minutemen brought this issue to attention?

 

Trouble is that the Minutemen are nothing like the fire-breathing racists that the leftists portray them as. They are a group of concerned citizens who are tired of the Federal Government ignoring what is a huge problem in our country.

 

Too much has come out about the minutemen and racist ties for it to just be a coincidence. One of their leaders left for that very same reason. Funny you should mention "gringos out" when much worse things have been heard in minutemen rallies.

Edited May 16, 2006 by SleepyWhiteSox

[Balta1701]

Well to be fair there is a pretty big racist contingent in there... There is no doubt in my mind we don't want citizens running around with guns patroling anything. That's called anarchy, and it is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place. On the other hand, I have zero problem with the National Guard protecting our borders, as well, they are the National Guard.

Personally, I think the border patrol is better suited for patrolling the border.

 

Of course, it would have really been nice if we had opportunities in recent years to expand the border patrol so that we wouldn't have had to use the Guard? Man that would have been convenient.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

How would that be a fair question if I never said I supported them but a couple of you did say you were glad the minutemen brought this issue to attention?

Too much has come out about the minutemen and racist ties for it to just be a coincidence. One of their leaders left for that very same reason. Funny you should mention "gringos out" when much worse things have been heard in minutemen rallies.

 

 

Sources?

 

The difficulty is that you can't use a leftist blog or website.

[NorthSideSox72]

Personally, I think the border patrol is better suited for patrolling the border.

 

Of course, it would have really been nice if we had opportunities in recent years to expand the border patrol so that we wouldn't have had to use the Guard? Man that would have been convenient.

Border Patrol doesn't have the manpower right now - they are starving for bodies. And it will stay that way unless we are willing to pay them more. Meanwhile, the Guard has the bodies, some of the training necessary, and the equipment.

[Cknolls]

Personally, I think the border patrol is better suited for patrolling the border.

 

Of course, it would have really been nice if we had opportunities in recent years to expand the border patrol so that we wouldn't have had to use the Guard? Man that would have been convenient.

 

How about cutting 5% from entitlement programs to hire 100,000 border patrol agents?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

How about cutting 5% from entitlement programs to hire 100,000 border patrol agents?

 

 

Do that and cut a couple of billion from the defense budget and you can hire all the BP agents you need as well as put up a fence that nobody could cross.

[YASNY]

How would that be a fair question if I never said I supported them but a couple of you did say you were glad the minutemen brought this issue to attention?

Too much has come out about the minutemen and racist ties for it to just be a coincidence. One of their leaders left for that very same reason. Funny you should mention "gringos out" when much worse things have been heard in minutemen rallies.

 

Yes, I said I'm glad the minutemen brought this to attention. There are some jerks in every crowd. Most of the minutemen proved to be law abiding citizens that never confronted any border crossers. They notified the BP. If bringing up the separatists, isn't fair, then your contentions are just as unfair.