ACLU gets prayer banned at a HS graduation ceremony.......

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

http://www.wkyt.com/Global/story.asp?S=4928301

 

 

 

BRAVO!!!!!!!

[LowerCaseRepublican]

I really don't get how everybody wants to take God out of the church and put it everyf***ingwhere. Doesn't that do a disservice to the actual religion when you have teachers etc. who are not 'experts' in religion being forced to deal with it.

 

There is a separation of church and state for a reason. If they want to pray the Lord's prayer, then let's get some eightfold Buddhist prayers going or my personal favorite, prayers to the Church of Spongebob Squarepants.

 

http://www.bushflash.com/bs1.html

http://www.bushflash.com/bs2.html

http://www.bushflash.com/bs3.html

 

The three part episode of Penn and Teller's 'Bulls***' totally owning creationism and 'intelligent design'.

 

The best part was seeing how truly 'Christian' these students were. "Gabe McNeil said during a rehearsal on Thursday, other students booed the student suspected of filing the challenge when he walked across the stage.

 

"They've been giving him crap," McNeil said."

 

So, they're all for the f***ing grandstanding but not actually standing up for the principles that their religion actually believes. What a bunch of f***ing hack morons.

 

And to combat the last sentence, America was not founded in any sense by the Christian religion (or so Washington wrote in the unanimously passed Treaty of Tripoli) The Founders were Deists, not Christians.

[rangercal]

http://www.wkyt.com/Global/story.asp?S=4928301

BRAVO!!!!!!!

^^^^

[EvilMonkey]

I really don't get how everybody wants to take God out of the church and put it everyf***ingwhere. Doesn't that do a disservice to the actual religion when you have teachers etc. who are not 'experts' in religion being forced to deal with it.

 

There is a separation of church and state for a reason. If they want to pray the Lord's prayer, then let's get some eightfold Buddhist prayers going or my personal favorite, prayers to the Church of Spongebob Squarepants.

 

http://www.bushflash.com/bs1.html

http://www.bushflash.com/bs2.html

http://www.bushflash.com/bs3.html

 

The three part episode of Penn and Teller's 'Bulls***' totally owning creationism and 'intelligent design'.

 

The best part was seeing how truly 'Christian' these students were. "Gabe McNeil said during a rehearsal on Thursday, other students booed the student suspected of filing the challenge when he walked across the stage.

 

"They've been giving him crap," McNeil said."

 

So, they're all for the f***ing grandstanding but not actually standing up for the principles that their religion actually believes. What a bunch of f***ing hack morons.

 

And to combat the last sentence, America was not founded in any sense by the Christian religion (or so Washington wrote in the unanimously passed Treaty of Tripoli) The Founders were Deists, not Christians.

Somehow if this situation was reversed, and the people wanting the prayers were the ones being ridiculed, and it was an anti-prayer group that stood up and disrupted the proceedings, I believe that you would be applauding thier actions. A prayer being said at the graduation in no way endorses one religion over another and in no way establishes a state-sponsored religion. So one person is offended. It wouldn't be the last time that pussy gets offended by something, I am sure. Did the school get up and say 'pray or no diploma'? Um, no.

 

The first amendment of the constitution states that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…. By denying these students thier RIGHT to free exercise of thier religion, you are violating THEIR first ammendment rights as well.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

The first amendment of the constitution states that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…. By denying these students thier RIGHT to free exercise of thier religion, you are violating THEIR first ammendment rights as well.

 

That doesn't matter to the leftist "ban religion" crowd. They will stop at nothing to remove any reference to Christianity from modern American life.

[Rex Kickass]

Yes, all democrats are baby killing Jesus haters.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Somehow if this situation was reversed, and the people wanting the prayers were the ones being ridiculed, and it was an anti-prayer group that stood up and disrupted the proceedings, I believe that you would be applauding thier actions. A prayer being said at the graduation in no way endorses one religion over another and in no way establishes a state-sponsored religion. So one person is offended. It wouldn't be the last time that pussy gets offended by something, I am sure. Did the school get up and say 'pray or no diploma'? Um, no.

 

The first amendment of the constitution states that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…. By denying these students thier RIGHT to free exercise of thier religion, you are violating THEIR first ammendment rights as well.

There are plenty opportunities to pray -- like in church or in one's home or on the streets. A prayer at a school prefers one religion over another. Not all the students in any given school are Christian and therefore the prayer (especially the Lord's Prayer) may be antithetical to their belief structure as per their religious choice. If they want the Lord's Prayer then let's get some eightfold path Buddhist prayers out there and start praying towards Mecca, et al.

 

And it seems like you're quite offended that these kids couldn't fall all over themselves about Jesus at a graduation. Funnier still was all these people falling all over themselves as some sort of good Christians -- yet they make fun of and give the guy who filed the lawsuit endless amounts of s***. Guess they really learned that "love thy neighbor" thing, huh?

 

As for the student led prayer violating the establishment clause, I refer you to Santa Fe Independent School District vs Doe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe_Inde...ol_Dist._v._Doe

 

The majority opinion, written by Justice Stevens depended on Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577. It held that these pre-game prayers delivered "on school property, at school-sponsored events, over the school's public address system, by a speaker representing the student body, under the supervision of school faculty, and pursuant to a school policy that explicitly and implicitly encourages public prayer" are not private, but public speech. "Regardless of the listener's support for, or objection to, the message, an objective Santa Fe High School student will unquestionably perceive the inevitable pregame prayer as stamped with her school's seal of approval."

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ May 21, 2006 -> 12:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That doesn't matter to the leftist "ban religion" crowd. They will stop at nothing to remove any reference to Christianity from modern American life.

I would love to see your reaction if a Public school held a Muslim prayer before a graduation.

 

I bet if the ACLU blocked it you'd say "For once I agree with the ACLU keeping that violent religion out of our schools."

Edited May 21, 2006 by santo=dorf

[CrimsonWeltall]

I don't have a problem with this in the sense that it was student-led prayer, but the fact that they made such a spectacle of it (standing up, probably saying it really loudly) AND they booed the kid makes me think they are just being asshats.

[EvilMonkey]

There are plenty opportunities to pray -- like in church or in one's home or on the streets. A prayer at a school prefers one religion over another. Not all the students in any given school are Christian and therefore the prayer (especially the Lord's Prayer) may be antithetical to their belief structure as per their religious choice. If they want the Lord's Prayer then let's get some eightfold path Buddhist prayers out there and start praying towards Mecca, et al.

[/b]

You seem pretty hung up on those eightfold path Buddhist Monks. Anyway, in Seattle they are trying to figure out how to get prayer into the school. ONly is isn't abny kind of Christian prayer, it is Muslim prayer. How do they merit such special inclusion that others do not?

http://www.washingtonea.org/my/local/seaho.../Unity16_13.pdf

 

The relevant article in their newsletter reads like this"

Committee will propose guidelines for issue of prayer

 

The SPS Department of Race and Equity is looking for SEA members to participate in a "Prayer in Schools Committee," the charge of which is to look at how to address this issue District wide and to provide information about our Muslim students that will help teachers and building leaders make decisions that support the needs of our diverse students and families. The next meeting is scheduled for May 30th, 3:00 - 4:30. Contact Dr. Hollins at [email protected]

 

I guess Muslim prayer OK, the Lord's Prayer, bad.

[CrimsonWeltall]

You seem pretty hung up on those eightfold path Buddhist Monks. Anyway, in Seattle they are trying to figure out how to get prayer into the school. ONly is isn't abny kind of Christian prayer, it is Muslim prayer. How do they merit such special inclusion that others do not?

 

They don't, and the newsletter doesn't imply they are getting any special inclusion.

 

The newsletter merely says that they are holding a meeting to figure out how to deal with the issue of Muslim prayer. My first impression is that this is related to the "5 prayers a day" thing and figuring out how to let Muslim students engage in it without interfering with the normal school day. It does not appear to be related to any school-sponsored prayer.

[samclemens]

I don't have a problem with this in the sense that it was student-led prayer, but the fact that they made such a spectacle of it (standing up, probably saying it really loudly) AND they booed the kid makes me think they are just being asshats.

 

screw that asshole, he deserves it. if he doesnt like a prayer that the majority of the student body wants to say, he can abstain from saying it, not sue anonymously like a little b****.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I don't have a problem with this in the sense that it was student-led prayer, but the fact that they made such a spectacle of it (standing up, probably saying it really loudly) AND they booed the kid makes me think they are just being asshats.

 

 

The asshat is the one douche who tried to spoil the ceremony for everyone else. Nobody was going to force him to say any prayers, nobody was going to force him to get on his knees and pray. He tried to mess things up for everyone else and he got it right back in his face. There is justice in this world.

 

I would love to see your reaction if a Public school held a Muslim prayer before a graduation.

 

I bet if the ACLU blocked it you'd say "For once I agree with the ACLU keeping that violent religion out of our schools."

 

 

If most of the kids in the school were muslim and they weren't advocating jihad or some nonsense like that I wouldn't care. Free expression of religon works for everybody.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

screw that asshole, he deserves it. if he doesnt like a prayer that the majority of the student body wants to say, he can abstain from saying it, not sue anonymously like a little b****.

Screw the asshole, he deserves it. What a Christian sentiment

 

If you knew your IL law regarding school prayer (which it seems that you and Evil don't), the law provides for a period of silent reflection. That way they can pray to Jesus, Allah, the sun, Xenu or any other thing they feel like praying to as long as it is personal, silent and individual.

 

These kids just wanted to fall all over themselves whining about how much they love Jesus, yet they didn't really follow that whole "love thy neighbor" thing. They're the worst kind of religious hacks.

 

The Supreme Court has said that school led prayer is ILLEGAL (see court case I cited earlier in this thread). This is clear judicial precedent, that a prayer advocated in school and led during a school function is de facto promotion of religion. The kid was merely standing up for his rights.

 

But it is good to see the "well the majority wants it so it has to stand". The majority of Afghanistan wanted the Taliban. Does that mean they should have it? The majority wanted women to wear burqas, get stoned etc. so therefore it must stand because thats what the majority wants.

 

And hey, we should re-segregate the schools cuz that's what the majority wanted at that time too.

[samclemens]

Screw the asshole, he deserves it. What a Christian sentiment

 

If you knew your IL law regarding school prayer (which it seems that you and Evil don't), the law provides for a period of silent reflection. That way they can pray to Jesus, Allah, the sun, Xenu or any other thing they feel like praying to as long as it is personal, silent and individual.

 

These kids just wanted to fall all over themselves whining about how much they love Jesus, yet they didn't really follow that whole "love thy neighbor" thing. They're the worst kind of religious hacks.

 

The Supreme Court has said that school led prayer is ILLEGAL (see court case I cited earlier in this thread). This is clear judicial precedent, that a prayer advocated in school and led during a school function is de facto promotion of religion. The kid was merely standing up for his rights.

 

But it is good to see the "well the majority wants it so it has to stand". The majority of Afghanistan wanted the Taliban. Does that mean they should have it? The majority wanted women to wear burqas, get stoned etc. so therefore it must stand because thats what the majority wants.

 

And hey, we should re-segregate the schools cuz that's what the majority wanted at that time too.

 

you argument is lacking. all you have done is put words in my mouth, making my position way more extreme than it is in order to prove what an intolerant person i am.

 

i stand by what i said. i dont live in IL, so no, i dont know IL law regarding the matter. what that dude did was the exact same thing as someone who is a pagan (or whatever) suing because prayers offend them. if you dont want to say a prayer, just dont say one. if you dont agree with a certain movie, dont see it. if you dont like whats on television, dont watch it. i hate PC b.s. like this. laissez-faire, baby. i dont want our country to be a white room with no pictures on the wall.

 

i would equate this kid with that atheist who sued to get the word 'god' off the one dollar bill, but at least he had the balls to put his name behind the lawsuit. suing anonymously makes anyone a b**** in my book.

[EvilMonkey]

Screw the asshole, he deserves it. What a Christian sentiment

 

If you knew your IL law regarding school prayer (which it seems that you and Evil don't), the law provides for a period of silent reflection. That way they can pray to Jesus, Allah, the sun, Xenu or any other thing they feel like praying to as long as it is personal, silent and individual.

 

These kids just wanted to fall all over themselves whining about how much they love Jesus, yet they didn't really follow that whole "love thy neighbor" thing. They're the worst kind of religious hacks.

 

The Supreme Court has said that school led prayer is ILLEGAL (see court case I cited earlier in this thread). This is clear judicial precedent, that a prayer advocated in school and led during a school function is de facto promotion of religion. The kid was merely standing up for his rights.

 

But it is good to see the "well the majority wants it so it has to stand". The majority of Afghanistan wanted the Taliban. Does that mean they should have it? The majority wanted women to wear burqas, get stoned etc. so therefore it must stand because thats what the majority wants.

 

And hey, we should re-segregate the schools cuz that's what the majority wanted at that time too.

 

 

First, I am aware that Illinois allows for a moment of silence. However, that too is being attacked by the ACLU, thanks to an athiest who is 'offended' at the moment of silence. When I find that link, I will post it.

 

Second, just an FYI, it seems the unidentified student isn't so unidentified.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=50297

And I bet most people thought at first this was another attack on religion by an athiest.

[samclemens]

to follow up on my post a while ago in this thread, heres another example of total PC bulls***:

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/14628069.htm

[LowerCaseRepublican]

to follow up on my post a while ago in this thread, heres another example of total PC bulls***:

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/14628069.htm

How about going with our real national motto? E. Pluribus Unum

 

"In God We Trust" was just a knee-jerk reactionary move in the 1950s during the Cold War. Nothing more.

 

But please -- keep telling me how Christians are treated so terribly in this country. It is quite hilarious. Perhaps Christians can go to their churches every Sunday without being harrassed, pray freely in their own homes and dare I say, perhaps we can have 43 consecutive religious Presidents, many of whom are Christian. But I'm sure that would never ever happen here.

 

There is nothing wrong with private, non-school event prayer services (say, the students got together at a local home or church to have a small service before graduation) but they cannot promote one religion during a school event because that violates the separation clause. It is really quite simple.

 

Personally, I'm laughing about how "Christian" most of these kids were -- booing the person, telling them to leave the country, etc. I believe it was Thatcher who discussed being a lady when she said "If you have to tell other people all the time, you're not." I think that statement fits the kids in this situation that were parading their Christianity.

 

And then there is the whole part of the Bible that discusses how one should pray in secret, without the right hand knowing what the left is doing and do not be like those who go out and parade their faith in grand displays etc. Religion is an intensely personal activity and choice for an individual to make and should not be cheapened in the public sector with huge monuments etc. on grounds paid with public funds.

 

People should know that they're Christians by their compassions, kind words and tolerant actions much rather than their trite, grandstanding (not to mention illegal in the school graduation setting) bulls***.

[CrimsonWeltall]

if you dont want to say a prayer, just dont say one. if you dont agree with a certain movie, dont see it. if you dont like whats on television, dont watch it.

 

Not the same. People b****ing about television shows or movies are b****ing on the basis that they are obscene and the governments needs to actively censor them. They also have the ability to not view such entertainment. This kid was b****ing about the school-sponsored prayer on the basis that it is illegal/unconstitutional. He probably doesn't have an alternative graduation to go to either.

 

i would equate this kid with that atheist who sued to get the word 'god' off the one dollar bill, but at least he had the balls to put his name behind the lawsuit. suing anonymously makes anyone a b**** in my book.

 

It was probably done anonymously because of all the lovely folks who would have attacked him if they were sure of his identity.

 

Mis-post edit: Just read the EvilMonkey article. Turns out it's a girl and she was harrassed.

 

to follow up on my post a while ago in this thread, heres another example of total PC bulls***:

 

I wouldn't say it's "total PC bulls***". It's just dumb. The coin depiction is inaccurate and only draws attention to "In God We Trust" because it's noticably missing. Nobody would have cared if it was a regular coin on there. (Plus their reason for putting the nickel on the yearbook is laughable)

 

I did enjoy the quotes from the self-made martyr in the article though. IM NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO SAY CHRISTMAS TREE!

[EvilMonkey]

WHile I dislike this group, they have a legal memorandum put out as to what is permitted, prayer-wise, at graduation ceremonies.

 

http://lc.org/Resources/memogradprayer.pdf

 

LCR, they reference your case in detail.

 

I did find one bit of info quite interesting, but it opens up a whole bunch of other discussions. According to the Supremes, "The restrictions on prayer during graduation at a public secondary school do not apply at the post-secondary level. Courts have reasoned that students in post-secondary schools are less impressionable, more mature and can better understand that prayer offered by a student or an outside clergy does not neccessarily represent the school, thus removing some of the restrictions secondary schools maintain."

 

So, by their logic, high schoolers are NOT smart enough to make the conclusion that a student thanking god or reciting a prayer doesn't neccessarily represent the school. However, these same high schoolers ARE smart enogh to know whether or not they want an abortion and smart enough to tell that a school teaching that homosexuality is good isn't really endorsing homosexuality. I know my boys have 'selective hearing', I guess high schoolers are just 'selectively dumb'.

[minors]

About time the ACLU and those liberal activist judges where handed a defeat. They have taken the constitution and stretched it way beyond proportion. The first amendment does not say that a group of students can not have a prayer before there graduation as long as no one is being forced to pray. Here is the exact wording

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

 

 

Justice Stevens has grown to senile for the bench he has to be pushing 90 he is way to old to be making such important decisions. Lee v. Wiseman was 5-4 split all along party lines (liberals winning) so it means nothing to me.

 

And finally yes the kid acted like a coward, if it offended him don't do the prayer ( I know several people who's graduating classes recited a prayer and they didn't believe in it so they just sat there and no one though any different of them.) If you believe in something stand up for it let your name be known instead of hiding behind the ACLU and the Courts and that is why he was harassed because he acted like a coward.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

About time the ACLU and those liberal activist judges where handed a defeat. They have taken the constitution and stretched it way beyond proportion. The first amendment does not say that a group of students can not have a prayer before there graduation as long as no one is being forced to pray. Here is the exact wording

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Justice Stevens has grown to senile for the bench he has to be pushing 90 he is way to old to be making such important decisions. Lee v. Wiseman was 5-4 split all along party lines (liberals winning) so it means nothing to me.

 

And finally yes the kid acted like a coward, if it offended him don't do the prayer ( I know several people who's graduating classes recited a prayer and they didn't believe in it so they just sat there and no one though any different of them.) If you believe in something stand up for it let your name be known instead of hiding behind the ACLU and the Courts and that is why he was harassed because he acted like a coward.

I see, they're activist judges when they say that a school cannot promote a certain deity via prayer at a school function but they're not when they're putting up big monuments to the 10 Commandments in their buildings. Gotcha.

 

And the case we were referring to was Santa Fe Independent School District vs Doe (2000) which was a 6-3 decision. Prayers delivered "on school property, at school-sponsored events, over the school's public address system, by a speaker representing the student body, under the supervision of school faculty, and pursuant to a school policy that explicitly and implicitly encourages public prayer" are not private, but public speech. "Regardless of the listener's support for, or objection to, the message, an objective Santa Fe High School student will unquestionably perceive the inevitable pregame prayer as stamped with her school's seal of approval."

 

The offensive part to me, was not the prayer, but the f***ing grandstanding these hypocritical 'Christian' f***s participated in. They fell all over themselves about what big Christians they are and how much Jesus impacted their lives -- yet they harass the kid, tell the kid to leave the country, boo the kid, etc. What if I tried strongarming a set of prayers for the Church of Spongebob Squarepants into my school graduation speech? What if I wanted to regale everybody with how the Testament of Squidward Tentacles helped me in my life? The fact is you wouldn't f***ing stand for it if it was any other religion getting this preferential treatment.

 

Student initiated, student led prayer at a school event violates the Establishment Clause and that is the law of the land. Not only did these morons violate the law, they were severely hypocritical to their own religious belief structure of compassion and loving thy neighbor -- which just makes this all the more deliciously hilarious.

 

Leave God in the Church and in your own personal philosophies without wearing Him on your shirt sleeves in a grandstanding fashion.

[YASNY]

I applaud these American citizens for standing up and exercizing their constitutional rights freedom of speech and the freedom to practice religion.

[Cknolls]

I think the ACLU has just recruited another member or future employee. :puke

[Soxbadger]

I personally think this is a grey area in the law.

 

The first amendment does not really address this issue, as it states explicitly "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" which does not mean that the govt has written a blank check for excersising religion. It is well established that there are lines religion can not cross, sacrificing, etc are illegal. Polygamy is illegal, eventhough it could be considered "Free excersise thereof".

 

The problem here is that in my opinion there is no answer that will keep everyone happy. If you let schools have prayer, then some people will be offended. If you do not let them have prayer, then other people will have a problem. Regardless, some one on some side will think that the rules are being written unfairly.

 

Thus my answer is, to completely seperate church and state. This approach would mean that state funded schools, would have to strictly comply. They could not have prayer at graduation, school functions, etc. Not because it is wrong, but just because it makes it simpler. If people want to say a prayer, go down to your local chuch, synagogue, mosque, and have a grand old time. At private schools of course anythin goes as they are private institutions and can do whatever they want. So if prayer is so important, you can chose to go to the private school, or say a little prayer to yourself.

 

But my understanding of the constitution and its enforcement fover last 200 years, does mean that you have the freedom to express your religion, whenever or however you want. Instead it means that the govt can not prevent you from practicing your religion completely.

 

Anyways its such an unimportant issue, like a bunch of words should really bother people so much. Some times you have to pick your battles, and this is one where I would just let it go. I may not be religious or a believer etc, but since Im not, those words mean as much to me as any other speech. So if they are going to make some one elses day, go for it. There are much bigger areas of concern for religion versus govt to start wasting a battle on this one.