Permanent Bases - and Long Term Iraq Plans

[NorthSideSox72]

I contend that there was never an outright lie. They just did what all politicians do. That is, bend the truth to meet their momentary needs. And don't try and tell me the Dems don't do that.

 

"I've never had sexual relations with that woman" is a prime example of bending the truth.

You're correct about the direction this is headed, but at least it's not a contentuous conversation. As for the last part of your post, that remains to be seen. But, yes, the possibility does exist.

 

Come on YAS. They lied. So did Clinton, as if that matters here. Everyone here was probably smart enough when all this started to know that WMD had almost nothing to do with our going to war in Iraq - it was primarily a regional strategic play to gain an anchorhead. And now we've reached the point where that has become more obvious to the oblivious public. But they did in fact lie, multiple times, about the bases, and about why we went to war.

[samclemens]

Come on YAS. They lied. So did Clinton, as if that matters here. Everyone here was probably smart enough when all this started to know that WMD had almost nothing to do with our going to war in Iraq - it was primarily a regional strategic play to gain an anchorhead. And now we've reached the point where that has become more obvious to the oblivious public. But they did in fact lie, multiple times, about the bases, and about why we went to war.

 

interesting to bring up clinton. most people here seem to forget that he straight up perjured himself in front of a grand jury and walked. meanwhile liberals in soxtalk squabble over ambiguities to say that president bush has lied. i see no definitive statements, including all of flasox's quotes.

 

no one, including me, is ever going to deny that the president is corrupt. but where is the acknowledgment towards (literally) ALL presidents being just as corrupt? thats the hypocrisy of nearly every liberal argument i hear these days.

[Balta1701]

interesting to bring up clinton. most people here seem to forget that he straight up perjured himself in front of a grand jury and walked. meanwhile liberals in soxtalk squabble over ambiguities to say that president bush has lied. i see no definitive statements, including all of flasox's quotes.

 

no one, including me, is ever going to deny that the president is corrupt. but where is the acknowledgment towards (literally) ALL presidents being just as corrupt? thats the hypocrisy of nearly every liberal argument i hear these days.

Bill Clinton should have resigned in 1998.

 

George W. Bush should have resigned when the Duelfer report came out.

[YASNY]

Come on YAS. They lied. So did Clinton, as if that matters here. Everyone here was probably smart enough when all this started to know that WMD had almost nothing to do with our going to war in Iraq - it was primarily a regional strategic play to gain an anchorhead. And now we've reached the point where that has become more obvious to the oblivious public. But they did in fact lie, multiple times, about the bases, and about why we went to war.

 

The Clinton reference was given as an example of a twisted half truth. When he said "sexual relations" he was literally talking about intercourse. There is his out for being able to say he didn't lie. That is exactly the type of things I'm saying Bush and crew have done. Saying "we have no plans for permanent bases" on day X doesn't mean there weren't plans for them on day X+365. They may have known they were going to plan on bases, but at that point in time it might have literally not even been discussed yet. Hell, no one from the administration discussed it with me, but I knew we'd have permanent bases before this was all over.

[IggyD]

This was their plan before GW took office...whats the argument or surprise here? (PNAC - NeoCon Agenda)

[FlaSoxxJim]

This was their plan before GW took office...whats the argument or surprise here? (PNAC - NeoCon Agenda)

 

You've hit it on the head there. PNAC strategists have called for an enduring presence in the Middle East (a Middle East reshaped in our image, no less) starting several years before the GWB presidency. Rummy, the man who has most fallen over himself to deny plans for permanent bases, is a signatory to their 1997 Statement of Principles. So, too, are Cheney, Libby, and Wolfowitz for that matter.

 

So when Rummy is on record as part of a group who for years have argued for a permanent Middle East presence, and is telling the public they have no plans to do the same, it is a spurious statement at best.

 

As far as the parsed-words justification as to how that can not be seen as lying – that "no plans" for bases maybe literally means the architects hadn't finished plans at the time the statement was made or some similar definition of 'what is is.' – I would hope that is unlikely in the 2004/2005 statements. Otherwise we were pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into the construction of "enduring"/"consolidating"/"long-term"/"pick-your-euphemism-but-don't-call-em-permanent" bases without even having the construction plans.

 

On the other hand, that sounds like about the level of forethought that has gone into the rest of the war.

Edited May 26, 2006 by FlaSoxxJim

[Rex Kickass]

interesting to bring up clinton. most people here seem to forget that he straight up perjured himself in front of a grand jury and walked. meanwhile liberals in soxtalk squabble over ambiguities to say that president bush has lied. i see no definitive statements, including all of flasox's quotes.

 

no one, including me, is ever going to deny that the president is corrupt. but where is the acknowledgment towards (literally) ALL presidents being just as corrupt? thats the hypocrisy of nearly every liberal argument i hear these days.

 

 

Ah "They all do it." Haven't heard that defense in what - a week now?

[YASNY]

Ah "They all do it." Haven't heard that defense in what - a week now?

 

Some of us will acknowledge the fact that they all do it while others only see one side.

[Rex Kickass]

Or maybe some of us just don't feel "They all do it" is an acceptable justification. If "they all do it" they all need fired.

[YASNY]

Or maybe some of us just don't feel "They all do it" is an acceptable justification. If "they all do it" they all need fired.

 

Some of us only critisize one side when 'they do it' and ignore it when the other side does it.

[Rex Kickass]

Actually, I'd say most of us do.

[kapkomet]

Actually, I'd say most of us do.

Actually, I'd say that half do and half don't. I think a lot of "conservatives" on this board can dish crap on their own "party" pretty well. I know I do.

[YASNY]

Actually, I'd say that half do and half don't. I think a lot of "conservatives" on this board can dish crap on their own "party" pretty well. I know I do.

 

As do I.

[kapkomet]

I still want to write down some thoughts on the structure and things on Iraq and how it relates to some of the failures. I should have some time this weekend.

[FlaSoxxJim]

I still want to write down some thoughts on the structure and things on Iraq and how it relates to some of the failures. I should have some time this weekend.

You sure know how to have fun on big holiday weekends my man!

[Balta1701]

You sure know how to have fun on big holiday weekends my man!

1 long weekend > the amount of thought the White House has spent thinking about the situation on the ground, so at least someone's trying.