beautox Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 yes, im glad Brian is silenceing me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 19, 2006 -> 12:55 PM) No they really don't expect that much, Santana is seriously no where near the level of Hernandez or Liriano. They want a guy like Santana then another spect like Brandon Wood or 2-3 other lesser prospects which is a s*** load but in the end is about even. Santana is only 22 and is already the third-best starter on that staff, which is damn impressive since this is only his second year in the league and the two guys ahead of him (Colon and Lackey) are pretty damn good. His drop in WHIP (1.39 to 1.14) and increase in K/BB (2.11 to 2.82) from last year to now are pretty freaking impressive. Felix may have better stuff and might be more highly-touted, but Santana is currently pitching circles around him. Given that starting pitchers (especially young, cheap ones that are already thriving in their second year) are inherently more valuable than CFs, I'd say that the Devil Rays just turned down a pretty good offer. And for them to claim that Anaheim "low-balled" them shows that they're not well-connected with reality. As A.J. Burnett showed this past winter, quality young starting pitching is at a premium right now. You are seriously under rating Crawford, a lot of players at his age are still in AAA, he's playing in All-Star games. They're asking for a large package of very good prospects for their stud OF, I wouldn't expect them to ask for any less. Yeah, Crawford was the Devil Rays' "token" All-Star in 2004, simply because every team has to represent with one player. Being the best player on the worst team in the majors doesn't necessarily mean much. Carl's a very solid player who has been very average at the plate coming into this season. But since he's having a good first half, everyone's on his jock like he's the next Barry Bonds. And if the Devil Rays are so sure that his hitting numbers are going to increase at their current rate, why are they trying to deal him now? If Crawford hits 25 HRs and puts up a .360 OBP over the course of a full season, they'll probably get a lot more more for him in December. FWIW, I full expect Crawford to continue to progress as a hitter... it's just a matter of when he'll stop. Given that Crawford's seen major-league pitching for the equivalent of ~ 4 full seasons now, I'm skeptical that he'll ever be a 30-HR hitter. Here's my take on these two. If Crawford develops like you (and others, apparently) think, he has a chance to be the next Bernie Williams (with more SBs early in his career). That's a pretty freaking good player. If Santana continues to develop at his current pace, he has a chance to be the next Roy Oswalt. If I'm a GM and have to choose between a starting pitcher and a CF and the age/contracts/injury history are approximately the same, I'm going with the starter every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beautox Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 19, 2006 -> 03:30 PM) Carl's a very solid player who has been very average at the plate coming into this season. But since he's having a good first half, everyone's on his jock like he's the next Barry Bonds. What? are you serious? do your homework buddy. Crawford compared to Rose (Most career hits - 4,256) its posts like that, that make me quote Back to the Future "Hello? Hello? Anybody home? Huh? Think, McFly. Think!!!!!" Pete Rose Cincinnati Reds Age Year AB H BA SB/CS 22 1963 625 170 .273 13/15 23 1964 516 139 .269 4/10 24 1965 670 209 .312 8/3 518 hits DJ's personal favorite Tony Gwynn San Diego Padres Age Year AB H BA SB/CS 24 1984 606 213 .351 33/18 25 1985 622 197 .317 14/11 26 1986 644 211 .329 37/9 621 hits Carl Crawford Tampa Bay Devil Rays Age Year AB H BA SB/CS 22 2003 630 177 .281 55/10 23 2004 626 185 .296 59/15 24 2005 644 194 .301 46/8 556 hits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 QUOTE(beautox @ Jun 19, 2006 -> 01:46 PM) What? are you serious? do your homework buddy. Crawford compared to Rose (Most career hits - 4,256) its posts like that, that make me quote Back to the Future "Hello? Hello? Anybody home? Huh? Think, McFly. Think!!!!!" Oh, so Crawford's the next Pete Rose now. Let's get busy on his Coopertown plaque! BTW, nice personal attack. You sound like a really intelligent in-duh-vidual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(beautox @ Jun 19, 2006 -> 03:46 PM) What? are you serious? do your homework buddy. Crawford compared to Rose (Most career hits - 4,256) its posts like that, that make me quote Back to the Future "Hello? Hello? Anybody home? Huh? Think, McFly. Think!!!!!" Pete Rose Cincinnati Reds Age Year AB H BA SB/CS 22 1963 625 170 .273 13/15 23 1964 516 139 .269 4/10 24 1965 670 209 .312 8/3 518 hits DJ's personal favorite Tony Gwynn San Diego Padres Age Year AB H BA SB/CS 24 1984 606 213 .351 33/18 25 1985 622 197 .317 14/11 26 1986 644 211 .329 37/9 621 hits Carl Crawford Tampa Bay Devil Rays Age Year AB H BA SB/CS 22 2003 630 177 .281 55/10 23 2004 626 185 .296 59/15 24 2005 644 194 .301 46/8 556 hits Yeah, because how many hits he has right now is so important, and he's bound to do it for another 15 to 20 years since he did it 3 times He's a solid player, but he's not exactly a superstar. Unless he starts taking more walks or hitting with more power, he's not THAT valuable. Sure, he's a solid hitter with some speed, but his potential impact on the lineup is lower because of that. Yeah, I'd love to have him, but he's not worth B-Mac and two or three more of our top prospects. Edit- Crap, can't find the right shade of green anymore. Edited June 19, 2006 by ZoomSlowik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beautox Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 19, 2006 -> 03:50 PM) Oh, so Crawford's the next Pete Rose now. Let's get busy on his Coopertown plaque! BTW, nice personal attack. You sound like a really intelligent in-duh-vidual. thats a zinger, the fact remains Crawford is young (24) and has more hits compare to Rose for their respective ages, whats hard to grasp about that? Next your going to be telling how important IsoD and IsoP are. Look at his career stats, hes done nothing but improve at a great rate, im not saying hes a Future HOFer but he is certaintly making his case within his first 4 full seasons at the ML level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 QUOTE(beautox @ Jun 19, 2006 -> 04:03 PM) thats a zinger, the fact remains Crawford is young (24) and has more hits compare to Rose for their respective ages, whats hard to grasp about that? Next your going to be telling how important IsoD and IsoP are. I fail to see why that matters. First off, Rose didn't exactly get off to the greatest start in his career with his average. Second, Rose played for 24 years (most as a leadoff man), which is a large part of why he has the most hits ever. He has almost 2,000 more at bats than any player in MLB history. Third, Rose got on base a lot more than Crawford does. Fourth, there are plenty of players I'd rather be compared to than Pete Rose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(beautox @ Jun 19, 2006 -> 02:08 PM) thats a zinger, the fact remains Crawford is young (24) and has more hits compare to Rose for their respective ages, whats hard to grasp about that? Nothing's difficult to grasp about that, other than the fact that using those numbers to imply that Crawford's going to have a Rose- or Gwynn-like career is just stupid. You said in an earlier thread that Crawford is the second coming of Rose/Gwynn/Clemente... your right its not Griffey, its Roberto Clemente/Tony Gwynn/Pete Rose, get it right. ... which is a pretty bold statement considering that Crawford only got into the All-Star game in '04 because nobody else on the team was good enough to get any votes. How three years of Crawford's stats compare to three years of Rose, Gwynn, Clemente's stats is meaningless. I agree with Kalapse that Crawford is a very good young player, but he's not a guy I'd even put in the "stud" category yet, much less the "future-Cooperstown" category. Edited June 19, 2006 by WCSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beautox Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Then my response to you is do what Chuck D says and dont believe the hype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 If you look at his collective numbers at his age, the guy is doing things better than a lot of great players in a number of categories (including Bonds). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 According to Sportsline's rumor mill...the Angels could, I repeat, could be offering, Santana, Figgins and a high prospect. There is NO WAY I give up Figgins for Crawford. I know he's younger, but Figgins can play 6 positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Jun 20, 2006 -> 09:56 AM) According to Sportsline's rumor mill...the Angels could, I repeat, could be offering, Santana, Figgins and a high prospect. There is NO WAY I give up Figgins for Crawford. I know he's younger, but Figgins can play 6 positions. I'd deal Figgins for Crawford every day of the week. Crawford is absolutely superior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 20, 2006 -> 04:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'd deal Figgins for Crawford every day of the week. Crawford is absolutely superior. No doubt about it. What would the White Sox have to give up to get him? Freddy Garcia, Scooty P, and Sweeney? I am not saying I would do that, but would that get the deal done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 20, 2006 -> 09:57 AM) I'd deal Figgins for Crawford every day of the week. Crawford is absolutely superior. The question is whether or not you think Crawford is worth Santana and another player, it doesn't matter which player. So basically, you're asking whether or not Ervin Santana will blossom into a consistent #1 starter within a year or two. Figgins is a throw-in to create space, since the Halos would have like 6 outfielders with Crawford. QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 20, 2006 -> 10:00 AM) No doubt about it. What would the White Sox have to give up to get him? Freddy Garcia, Scooty P, and Sweeney? I am not saying I would do that, but would that get the deal done? The Devil Rays don't want people with big salaries, like Garcia. McCarthy + someone else. Pods might fit there honestly, but it might still take a 3rd player if Pods were included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beautox Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 McCarthy, Pods, Rogo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 20, 2006 -> 09:57 AM) I'd deal Figgins for Crawford every day of the week. Crawford is absolutely superior. Completely agree. But Figgins AND Santana? I wouldn't... not with the way that Santana has been pitching. QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 20, 2006 -> 10:01 AM) The Devil Rays don't want people with big salaries, like Garcia. McCarthy + someone else. Pods might fit there honestly, but it might still take a 3rd player if Pods were included. The Devil Rays don't want older players like Garcia, either. I'm sure they'd want B-Mac, but I wouldn't trade him. If I were KW and I really, really wanted Crawford, I'd eventually offer Garland, Fields, Broadway, and either Pods or Anderson. If that was unacceptable, I'd break off negotiations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 20, 2006 -> 10:09 AM) Completely agree. But Figgins AND Santana? I wouldn't... not with the way that Santana has been pitching. The Devil Rays don't want older players like Garcia, either. I'm sure they'd want B-Mac, but I wouldn't trade him. If I were KW and I really, really wanted Crawford, I'd eventually offer Garland, Fields, Broadway, and either Pods or Anderson. If that was unacceptable, I'd break off negotiations. Picking up Jon Garland would single-handedly increase the Devil Rays' total salary expenditures by over 20%. They are simply not going to take ANY of our current starting pitchers not named McCarthy; they are all too expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 20, 2006 -> 10:12 AM) Picking up Jon Garland would single-handedly increase the Devil Rays' total salary expenditures by over 20%. They are simply not going to take ANY of our current starting pitchers not named McCarthy; they are all too expensive. I also forgot about Jon's no-trade clause. Oh well. The Devil Rays are a joke. If they can't afford ONE $10 million/year player, they need to be contracted. A doormat, glorified-Triple A team like that does nothing positive for MLB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 If Figgins were to go to Tampa would Fields for Figgins be fair. If Crede leaves, Figgins can move to third. For now, he platoons with Anderson and can really force the issue with Podsednik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 The only way the Sox get this deal done is if BMAC is involved. BMAC + Sweeney + BA would def get the deal done, although I wouldn't do that trade. BMAC + prospects in general, but the Sox aren't exactly loaded with prospies right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 20, 2006 -> 05:09 PM) I were KW and I really, really wanted Crawford, I'd eventually offer Garland, Fields, Broadway, and either Pods or Anderson. If that was unacceptable, I'd break off negotiations. If you were KW, you wouldn't have a job for long with trades like that. The D-Rays wouldn't want Garland or Pods. And Anderson is a keeper. Fields and Broadway would be a good starting point though with TB wanting a few more players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DABearSoX Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I got crawford for Scotty, and a minor league shortstop in MLB the show......I think when i did this scotty was hitting .160 in real life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 QUOTE(DABearSoX @ Jun 20, 2006 -> 02:33 PM) I got crawford for Scotty, and a minor league shortstop in MLB the show......I think when i did this scotty was hitting .160 in real life Excellent. Let's offer that then. If it happened in a video game, it's bound to be acceptable in real life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSOX45 Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 20, 2006 -> 12:12 PM) Picking up Jon Garland would single-handedly increase the Devil Rays' total salary expenditures by over 20%. They are simply not going to take ANY of our current starting pitchers not named McCarthy; they are all too expensive. Not always the case. I could see Garcia being dealt if the Sox paid for most of his salary. I highly doubt that Kenny will move anyone in our starting rotation...at least right now. During the off-season I really think Freddy is gone. CWSOX45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 QUOTE(beck72 @ Jun 20, 2006 -> 12:20 PM) If you were KW, you wouldn't have a job for long with trades like that. The D-Rays wouldn't want Garland or Pods. And Anderson is a keeper. Fields and Broadway would be a good starting point though with TB wanting a few more players. Anderson is a "keeper", even if the Sox would receive Crawford in return? What was that you were saying about me losing my job as a GM? :rolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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