Big Frank

[Y2HH]

Allow me to remind those with short memories (most of you, it seems), that if Thomas was still with the Sox, his salary would have been upwards of 10M, due to his option.

 

So before you compare salaries, remember that what the A's got him for we never EVER could have had him for, instead, he would have cost about 3M MORE per year than Thome, for less production.

 

But thanks for playing, n00bs.

 

Now shut up about Thomas, talking about how he's back in the playoffs and the Sox arent. If the Sox were in that division we would be, just so happens we were in the strongest division in baseball, thus inferior teams with lesser records made it.

 

[Milkman delivers]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/thomafr04.shtml

 

His postseason stats are about halfway down the page.

 

I'm not sure what else you were expecting of him 1993. He seemed to fare extremely well, especially for being walked 10 times in six games. And I don't know about you, but I can't recall anyone on the Sox showing up in 2000.

 

Herbert Perry.

[RibbieRubarb]

Herbert Perry.

 

[Harry Chappas]

Compare Frank and Jim's salary, then post those stats again.

 

If the Sox keep Frank, they could have traded Gio, Rowand, etc for perhaps a piece that we needed, maybe say bullpen or a LF?

 

Frank would have cost us 0 talent, and a fraction of Thome's salary.

 

Jim was awesome, but he would have had to be exponentially better than Frank for the trade to be worth it. The Sox took a risk that Thome would be healthy and Frank would not be. Frank turned out to be healthy, but that was a risk the Sox were not going to take.

 

Rock on Big Frank.

 

So last November/July you were pissed they got Thome and let Thomas go.

 

GMAFB

Edited October 3, 2006 by Jenks Heat

[Jordan4life_2007]

Frank=GOAT (Greatest of all time)

Edited October 3, 2006 by Jordan4life_2006

[CWSGuy406]

Allow me to remind those with short memories (most of you, it seems), that if Thomas was still with the Sox, his salary would have been upwards of 10M, due to his option.

 

So before you compare salaries, remember that what the A's got him for we never EVER could have had him for, instead, he would have cost about 3M MORE per year than Thome, for less production.

 

But thanks for playing, n00bs.

 

Now shut up about Thomas, talking about how he's back in the playoffs and the Sox arent. If the Sox were in that division we would be, just so happens we were in the strongest division in baseball, thus inferior teams with lesser records made it.

 

 

Actually, Thomas talked about how the Sox didn't even discuss buying him out and then resigning him to an incentive laden deal.

 

But that's neither here nor there, as it would've been a big risk to go into the season with Frank at DH. The Sox made the right move.

 

The main backers of Frank in this thread have been backing Frank the whole year, not just in the second half. Yeah -- through his poor first-half, with everybody saying that Frank will never play well again (my oh my have those people mysteriously dissappeared), we backed him.

 

And Frank deserves this opportunity. Glad to see he's making the most of his chance.

 

Mmkay, newb?

[Y2HH]

Actually, Thomas talked about how the Sox didn't even discuss buying him out and then resigning him to an incentive laden deal.

 

But that's neither here nor there, as it would've been a big risk to go into the season with Frank at DH. The Sox made the right move.

 

But, since you feel the need to be a dumbass, the main backers of Frank in this thread have been backing Frank the whole year, not just in the second half. Yeah -- through his poor first-half, with everybody saying that Frank will never play well again (my oh my have those people mysteriously dissappeared), we backed him.

 

And Frank deserves this opportunity. Glad to see he's making the most of his chance.

 

Mmkay, newb?

 

Um, ok...ASS. First off, buying out Thomas and then discussing a contract would have cost 3+M for the buyout (which was a foregone conclusion), and then he would have requested another 5M+incentives -- at a bare minimum -- if not more. Originally I was going to go off on this post...but I thought better of it, after all, one of us has to step up and be a man rather than casting stones in glass houses. When I made my original post, I did so sarcastically in saying MOST of you have short term memories, and this season prooves a lot of you DO have short term memories, including Thomas. That said, I never singled anybody out, unlike yourself. Nice low blow, by the way.

 

As for you're friend on here posting lame things such as I was owned...grow up.

 

Oh and nice job on the censorship, too, but I was altering my post while you deleted it, so I just decided to repost the altered, more mature post. Wow, this is becoming more like a Cubs board everyday...now you remove posts when you don't like what someone has to say, yet you leave your friends name calling posts alone?

 

Thanks for reminding me why I stopped posting here in the first place, apparantly, unless you're one of the kids in the "Get Along Gang of Soxtalk", you're a second class citizen.

 

And this is coming from someone who actually sent in money to support this website at one time. Good job.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Y2HH

[CWSGuy406]

Oh and nice job on the censorship, too, but I was altering my post while you deleted it, so I just decided to repost the altered, more mature post. Wow, this is becoming more like a Cubs board everyday...now you remove posts when you don't like what someone has to say, yet you leave your friends name calling posts alone?

 

Who removed a post? I don't think my 'powers' apply to this board anymore, and if they did, I wouldn't use them. I don't think I've ever removed a post in my history as a mod.

 

I find it funny you call me an ass, and then go on to talk about being the bigger man.

 

If you really want me to, I'll delete my post and send it to the gutter. Anti-Frank people have seemingly struck a nerve with me today.

[RockRaines]

Allow me to remind those with short memories (most of you, it seems), that if Thomas was still with the Sox, his salary would have been upwards of 10M, due to his option.

 

So before you compare salaries, remember that what the A's got him for we never EVER could have had him for, instead, he would have cost about 3M MORE per year than Thome, for less production.

 

But thanks for playing, n00bs.

 

Now shut up about Thomas, talking about how he's back in the playoffs and the Sox arent. If the Sox were in that division we would be, just so happens we were in the strongest division in baseball, thus inferior teams with lesser records made it.

 

apparently you didnt notice my post exactly one before yours.

 

Who removed a post? I don't think my 'powers' apply to this board anymore, and if they did, I wouldn't use them. I don't think I've ever removed a post in my history as a mod.

 

I find it funny you call me an ass, and then go on to talk about being the bigger man.

 

If you really want me to, I'll delete my post and send it to the gutter. Anti-Frank people have seemingly struck a nerve with me today.

Who is anti-frank??? I havent seen an anti Frank post yet. But saying that Thome was a huge mistake, and then saying that we lost money of that deal is downright retarded. Frank would have been more expensive, probably wouldnt have produced as well in our division (which is superior to the AL west) and Thome was a monster this year anyway. The situation worked out pretty well for both teams, it happens.

[Soxbadger]

Rock,

 

How could the Sox not have bought Frank out and then paid him slightly more than the A's?

 

So before you start acting condescending like I am some newbie to the site, perhaps you should take the time to answer me.

 

Y2hh,

 

Ive been here since the site began.

 

Explain how the Sox could not have bought out frank and then brought him back?

 

Or did you forget that was an option?

 

Jenks Heat,

 

Actually I have never spoken on the Thome trade.

 

Frank Thomas is my favorite player, and if I was running the team, I would have brought back Frank.

 

But this is not about being sentimental, this is about a business. The White Sox made a business decision thinking that Thome would be more healthy than Frank. They spent a lot of talent and money on this decision.

 

If you would have showed the Sox those state lines Rock posted, and said that you would get the lower out of Thomas and the higher out of Thome, I doubt they would have traded for Thome. They would have addressed a real need, not DH.

 

You could have gotten a LH for either CF or LF.

 

As for being a noob, how come my registration is from 2002 and yours is from 2004?

 

My guess is y2hh is nothing more than a bandwagon fan.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Soxbadger

[RockRaines]

Rock,

 

How could the Sox not have bought Frank out and then paid him slightly more than the A's?

He activated his player option at 10 million dollars. That is what I am talking about. If you want to talk if's and talk what would have happened negotiation, that will be a long conversation. If we bought him about for 3.5, do you really think Frank would have signed with us for 500k? In fact I believe that with the A's deal its going to to be worth around 4million from what I saw. Which would mean Frank would make 7.5 million this year, which is close to what Thome makes. So for the same price you get better production and a left handed power bat out of Thome.

 

BTW I wasnt trying to be condescending, I was pointing out that Frank would have made more money, and Thome's production is much higher in every sense except RBI's. IMO we got the better end of the situation, its just too bad our team underperformed and was in the best division in baseball.

Edited October 4, 2006 by RockRaines

[Soxbadger]

Lets not talk in hypotheticals, lets talk facts:

 

(from this site http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/c...-white-sox.html

 

Frank Thomas:

 

1 year/$0.5M (2006), plus $2.6M in bonuses, incentives

 

signed as a free agent 1/06

$1.4M in roster bonuses (if on active ML roster or on DL with injury unrelated to left foot problem)

$0.325M each on May 1 & June 15

$0.375M each on July 15 & Aug. 15

$1.2M in incentives

$0.2M each for 300, 350, 400, 450, 500 & 550 Plate Appearances

$50,000 bonus for Gold Glove

 

So high ball, $3.1 mil. They already had to pay the 3.5mil buy out to let him go, so that is a wash.

 

Total for Thomas, $3.1mil

 

Thome:

 

6 years/$85M (2003-08), plus $13M 2009 club option

 

acquired in trade 11/05, with the Phillies paying $22M to the White Sox as part of the deal

 

$10M signing bonus (paid in 4 installments of $2.5M, 2003-06)

03:$9.5M, 04:$10.5M, 05:$11.5M, 06:$12.5M, 07:$14M, 08:$14M, 09:$13M ($3M buyout)

$50,000 All Star incentive

signed as a free agent 12/02

 

$22mil over 3 years = $7mil per year. 06: Salary $5.5mil, 07: $7mil, 08: $ 7mil 09, $ 3mil buyout or $10mil. Signing bonus of 2.5mil owed in 06 meaning, 06 salary $8mil.

 

Total Sox owing to Thome: $25mil (if bought out in 2009) $33mil (if kept in 2009)

 

So the Sox paid approximately $4.9mil extra to have Thome on the team this year than Frank. And will pay another $25mil to keep Thome for another 3 years, it is hard to imagine Frank will get 3 years 8mil so that is basically a wash.

 

Thus, the Sox paid more for Thome, and gave up talent.

 

All I am saying is that in hindsight, the type of economic committment they could have given Thomas versus what they gave to Thome, plus having to give up talent, the Sox probably would have kept Thomas if they knew this is the type of season that they would get.

 

But no one knew that, and that is why frank is making 3.1 mil this year.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, but if it was my call I would of stuck with Frank and used my talent to improve LF or the pen.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Soxbadger

[Reddy]

by the way, WAY TO GO BIG FRANK ON WINNING THE GAME FOR THE A's TONIGHT!!!

 

a homer of Johan and Jesse Crain? damn youre a beast frank

[Y2HH]

All the past stuff aside, no...don't go deleting your post for calling me a dumbass...maybe I was a bit of a condescending dumbass, but when someone calls me one, expect a reaction.

 

That said, yes, overall we invested more in Thome, for more years -- and in saying that, let's remember what Thome brought to the table. 42 HR, a nice .avg/.obp/.ops and great RBI production, not to mention left handed power protection in the heart of our lineup. Call me a dumbass all you want, but I fail see how the results we got for the investment we made was a bad thing...

 

Thomas not only wanted 10M+ from us for 1 year (after excercising an overprice/inflated option), but would not have produced the same numbers in the AL central (as someone pointed out before).

 

And let's just keep in mind, Thome's stats were still better.

 

And at the risk of further angering many of you, Rowand isn't all that and a bag of chips...he was an average player that offered nothing more than Anderson did defensivly...and if I recall, Rowand's stupid baserunning in the world series almost cost us a game.

 

With all the money the Sox spent this season, Thome aside, they could have signed some better bullpen arms rather than thinking Politte, Hermanson, Cotts, et al would put up the same impossible numbers as they had the year before. They should have foresaw a dropoff...I don't think anyone here DIDN'T see this coming.

 

I liked Frank Thomas more than I hated him during his time here...but it's time to let it go. Thome brought something to the table that was long LONG missing -- left handed power. Our offense was stellar this year, and even in games when they'd only score 2 runs -- last season that would have been enough to win. This same offense with last years pitching would have meant 116+ wins...at least the way I see it. Our offense wasn't an issue, and Thome wasn't an issue...thus Thomas wasn't an issue.

 

It was pitching.

 

Period.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Y2HH

[Texsox]

2 home runs to start the A's playoff run.

[Soxbadger]

I guess your speaking about CWS, because I never referred to you as a dumbass.

 

As to the rest of your argument.

 

1) AL Central versus AL West, is debatable. Lets look at some stats:

Frank:

 

SPLIT AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS

Home 244 42 59 6 0 23 57 38 3 47 0 0 .242 .347 .549 .896

Away 222 35 67 5 0 16 57 43 3 34 0 0 .302 .417 .541 .958

 

Thome:

 

Home 255 57 74 10 0 25 60 54 4 71 0 0 .290 .419 .624 1.043

Away 235 51 67 16 0 17 49 53 2 76 0 0 .285 .414 .570 .984

 

Frank played in a pitchers park, yet hit more HR there. Although his over all numbers suffered in Oakland.

 

Thome on the other hand hit more HR's at the Cell, a favorable hitters park. We can only speculate what would have happened, but balls were flying out of the Cell, and Frank may have had his share.

 

2) Rowand. I never said keep Rowand. I said we should have traded for a need, bullpen or OF. We had Konerko and Thomas, those are 2 1b and DH, we did not need to trade for another 1b/Dh. That is basically the last position we had a need.

 

3) Left handed, yes I think we should have gotten a LH player in LF or CF. For about the same price we could have had a guy like Abreu.

 

4) Thomas was never offered a contract from the Sox. From history, Tellem and Reisndorf have always gotten a deal done. KW showed that he had no desire to bring back Frank, and there was really no options. Had the door been left open I think Frank would have came back for an A's like offer.

 

5) We lost because of pitching. The reason we did not have the chips to trade for an elite closer or more pitching was we spent Thome. My argument is that we should have used our talent like Gio and traded for a need.

 

Had we used Gio, Rowand, etc to get a top bullpen guy or a LF/CF we would have had a much better team overall.

[MSHAWKS]

Thomas not only wanted 10M+ from us for 1 year (after excercising an overprice/inflated option), but would not have produced the same numbers in the AL central (as someone pointed out before).

 

 

Why do you say this? You see what Frank does against Santana. Its not like the big man can't hit good pitching.

[Soxbadger]

Thomas did well against CWS, Twins, and KC.

 

Did bad against CLE and DET.

 

He absolutely killed the Sox.

 

For comparison, Thome did terrible against Twins.

 

A lot of HR's against. CLE.

 

Did great against DET and KC.

 

To me it seems like much ado about nothing with the AL Central comparison.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Soxbadger

[Jordan4life_2007]

Thomas did well against CWS, Twins, and KC.

 

Did bad against CLE and DET.

 

He absolutely killed the Sox.

 

For comparison, Thome did terrible against Twins.

 

A lot of HR's against. CLE.

 

Did great against DET and KC.

 

To me it seems like much ado about nothing with the AL Central comparison.

 

Tell 'em, Badger. It's sad when Frank haters have to get so lame as to say he wouldn't do what he did this year in the AL Central. Frank is great. Period.

[Soxbadger]

Jenks looked tired.

 

Last year it was nice to have Hermanson and Jenks.

 

I more ment a great set up man like Spooney, but if the Sox had to take some one elses closer and put him in MR I would not have minded either.

[Y2HH]

Jenks looked tired.

 

Last year it was nice to have Hermanson and Jenks.

 

I more ment a great set up man like Spooney, but if the Sox had to take some one elses closer and put him in MR I would not have minded either.

 

Jenks may have looked tired, and probably was due to our starting pitchers only going 5-6 innings for the better part of the year, but more often than not, Jenks got the job done...he had quite a few saves.

 

And the money we spent on Thome didn't prevent us from signing pensmen/closers, the money we wasted on J Vazquez did.

 

All that said, it wasn't a great season even though we ended up with 90 wins -- but Thome vs Thomas wasn't the answer, either. Keeping Thomas around -- at BEST we were still only a 90 win team.

 

I'd even go as far as to say it wasn't our bullpens fault -- they were just overtired due to all the innings...if our starters had done their job (7+ innings) every game, by mid season our pensmens arms wouldn't have all been falling off.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Y2HH

[GoodAsGould]

If Frank Thomas keeps this up all postseason, he goes into the Hall

as a member of the A's.

 

So sad he's still not a White Sox.

I love Thome, but Frank is in the postseason; Jimmy is not.

KW's biggest blunder ever.

 

Those 2 are the most ridiculous things ive ever heard. No matter if Frank hits a HR every other ab this post-season and single-handely takes the A's to the WS and wins it for them will he go in the hall as an Oakland A. Hell if he gets resigned and does it again next season or next 2 seasons that wont happen. Where do you even get an idea like that from?

 

 

Also Frank only showed up for half a season, it was one hell of a half a season but what would we be with him in our lineup the first half? Also Jim Thome will put up good numbers for next couple of years as well and Frank can be done at any moment....The only blunder KW made was when he called out Frank in public.

[greasywheels121]

MINNEAPOLIS -- Just minutes after Frank Thomas played hero in the Oakland Athletics' 3-2 victory Tuesday over the Minnesota Twins, the designated hitter was giggling in the clubhouse, cell phone in hand.

 

A text message caught Thomas' eye, sent from former White Sox teammate Mark Buehrle. Three simple words: ''You're a stud.''

 

MORE..

[RockRaines]

Tell 'em, Badger. It's sad when Frank haters have to get so lame as to say he wouldn't do what he did this year in the AL Central. Frank is great. Period.

Once again, nobody is hating on Frank, its pretty lame to drop in the middle of a thread and have nothing of substance to add other than being a cheerleader.

 

The AL central has the best pitching in the major leagues, bar none. It is a better division that the AL west. Odds are its harder to produce offensively in such a pitching rich division, thats all. It may not have been the case, but the odds are in favor of that happening.

[Balta1701]

So, the one issue people are forgetting with regards to Frank's contract status last year is this one: had the White Sox not been able to sign Frank by about December 20th, the White Sox would have had no choice but to either let Frank go or sign him to whatever deal he wanted. Why? Because of the arbitration deadline.

 

Frank made about $10 million in 05, IIRC. If the White Sox offered him arbitration, and Thomas had accepted, then Frank could have held the Sox over a barrel by not signing a contract and just going to arbitration; arbitrators rarely decrease a person's salary by much.

 

Frank wound up not signing anywhere until late January...because until then no team wanted to take the risk on signing him because of his injury history, and because he wanted to wait to see if any offers would come along.

 

So basically, we'd have these 2 options: offer Frank enough money to get him to sign before the arbitration deadline, which would likely have been significantly more than what Oakland offered, or offer Frank arbitration, and wind up being stuck having to pay Frank nearly $10 million this season. Oh, and probably losing Konerko too.