Big Frank

[CWSGuy406]

Once again, nobody is hating on Frank, its pretty lame to drop in the middle of a thread and have nothing of substance to add other than being a cheerleader.

 

You know what else is lame?

 

If he had a series like that in either 2000 or 1993, he wouldn't be an ex-White Sox now.

 

No kidding. Instead he disappeared.

[RockRaines]

You know what else is lame?

SO stating that he had a bad playoff series in 2000 is lame? Wow, I guess im just a hater.

Edited October 4, 2006 by RockRaines

[Texsox]

SO stating that he had a bad playoff series in 2000 is lame? Wow, I guess im just a hater.

 

bad has to be the understatement of the century.IMHO it was his worst moment as a player.

[Y2HH]

Considering the year he had in 2000, his playoff performance couldn't be called anything short of a choke job.

[Soxbadger]

Actually if you were a fan back in 2000 you would know that the White Sox had dominating splits in every facet except one, games played during the day.

 

Due to scheduling the White Sox played day games, while the Yankees were given night games.

 

It is much harder to hit in the shadows of Safeco, then to hit at night.

 

::shrugs::

 

As to the rest, I think the reason the White Sox did not make the playoffs was because their bullpen was to weak. Great pens can go 7,8,9. If the Sox had that they would have won substantially more games because they could have rested their starters instead of trying to keep going to the well. Anyone that has watched baseball knows that after the pitching load they had last year, the 4 remaining SP's from the Championship team were going to struggle with dead arm. This came into full force this year, but with the lack of depth in the pen, the Sox were forced to just keep doing the same thing.

 

I dont understand why Thomas could get injured at any time, but that Thome is all of a sudden a sure bet not to be injured?

 

Both have almost the same chance of injury, id say Thomas is slightly higher.

 

As to the "arbitration", what do you think Thomas would have gotten in arb?

 

I believe it is based on a 3 year average, in which case you would have had 1 good year, 42 hrs, and 2 sub par years. His arb at most would of been in the 5mil range.

 

No where close to the 10mil people are claiming.

 

And on to the Javy point. Had the Sox not used Gio and Rowand for Thome, they may have been able to trade for Vaz and not give up Young. That would have given the Sox much more flexibility in the OF for 2006 and beyond.

 

Im sorry but there is no way you will convince me that Thome made a significant difference in terms of production to Frank.

 

And as for the Al Central having the best pitching staffs, how come Frank destroyed Twins and Sox?

 

Yet his worst average was against the Angels?

 

Facts do not seem to support this claim.

[RockRaines]

its apparent that your blind love of Frank wont let you even take in other factors in why it was a good thing that he left. Agree to disagree.

[southsider2k5]

You know what else is lame?

 

If Frank carries the team deep into the playoffs, he would never have been let go at this point. I firmly believe that, whether you think it is "lame" or not. Its not much of a stretch to think that if he had been able to give Chicago their first World Series trip in two generations, while being the biggest name the Sox have had since at least the 20's would have made it impossible from a PR standpoint to let the guy go. I know the knee jerk as usual is to go back to "well so and so didn't do anything either" but guess what, none of those guys was the face of the franchise. When you have people running around calling you "The greatest of all time" people expect a little bit more out of you when it counts. That's why people bring up what Frank did in the playoffs, and not what Maggs did. Magglio Ordonez was a big name, but he wasn't the face of the Chicago White Sox. And if Frank does show up either time, there is no way that Kenny Williams could have gotten big enough to run him out of town. It wouldn't have gotten to the point where Williams had the option of doing it.

 

As to the "arbitration", what do you think Thomas would have gotten in arb?

 

I believe it is based on a 3 year average, in which case you would have had 1 good year, 42 hrs, and 2 sub par years. His arb at most would of been in the 5mil range.

 

No where close to the 10mil people are claiming.

 

Once you go to arbitration, you can receive no less than a 20% paycut, so yes it would have been pretty close to what he was making before.

[Soxbadger]

Okay so 8mil to Frank for 1 season, versus over 20mil to Thome for his contract.

 

Still was cheaper to keep Frank.

 

As to my "blind love of Frank", so far no one has brought any statistics to the argument except for me.

 

You rely on:

 

AL Central is better.

 

Yet do not bring the stats to back it up. I actually did the research to show that Thome and Thomas had basically statistically equal seasons.

 

You still have not addressed the talent given up for Thome, as everyone just harps on the money.

 

Thomas would have cost 0 talent.

 

Thome cost, Rowand and Gio. Those 2 could have been used elsewhere.

 

Ill just agree to disagree and not have to deal with your blind hate of Thomas.

[southsider2k5]

Okay so 8mil to Frank for 1 season, versus over 20mil to Thome for his contract.

 

Still was cheaper to keep Frank.

 

As to my "blind love of Frank", so far no one has brought any statistics to the argument except for me.

 

You rely on:

 

AL Central is better.

 

Yet do not bring the stats to back it up. I actually did the research to show that Thome and Thomas had basically statistically equal seasons.

 

You still have not addressed the talent given up for Thome, as everyone just harps on the money.

 

Thomas would have cost 0 talent.

 

Thome cost, Rowand and Gio. Those 2 could have been used elsewhere.

 

Ill just agree to disagree and not have to deal with your blind hate of Thomas.

 

Actually I think a solid arguement would be Thomas would have cost us Konerko. Pauly was already on record as saying he was leaning towards signing with Anaheim, but it was the trade for Thome that brought him back.

[RockRaines]

Okay so 8mil to Frank for 1 season, versus over 20mil to Thome for his contract.

 

Still was cheaper to keep Frank.

 

As to my "blind love of Frank", so far no one has brought any statistics to the argument except for me.

 

You rely on:

 

AL Central is better.

 

Yet do not bring the stats to back it up. I actually did the research to show that Thome and Thomas had basically statistically equal seasons.

 

You still have not addressed the talent given up for Thome, as everyone just harps on the money.

 

Thomas would have cost 0 talent.

 

Thome cost, Rowand and Gio. Those 2 could have been used elsewhere.

 

Ill just agree to disagree and not have to deal with your blind hate of Thomas.

Do you ever read anything other than what you want to see? I dont hate thomas, I love him in fact and I have been rooting for him throughout the playoffs and his whole career. I was actually the one who posted their stats on this thread and showed that Thome was statistically superior this year. AL central IS better, we have 2 team who are in the playoffs and have a great collection of talented players, including more MVP's candiadates, Cy Young candidates, rookie of the year, etc etc.

 

Rowand and GIO are garbage, Rowand is avg at best and Gio is a prospect who most likely wont pan out any time soon, big deal. If we brought back Frank Konerko would be in an angels uni, then who would be the winner of that situation? Seriously just stop, there is no end to this debate and both of us like Frank anyway.

 

Thome .288 .416 1.014 OPS 42 hr 109 RBI 108 runs

 

Thomas .270 .381 .926 OPS 39 hr 114 RBI 77 runs

Explain how that was his biggest blunder ever.

here is the stats that I posted BTW

[greasywheels121]

Yay.

 

 

What is that thing?

[RockRaines]

Baseball Mogul. A cheaper OOTP.

OOTP is so sexual.

[CWSGuy406]

SO stating that he had a bad playoff series in 2000 is lame? Wow, I guess im just a hater.

 

Yes. It wasn't needed in the thread, period. A pot stirring post, really...

[Steff]

Actually I think a solid arguement would be Thomas would have cost us Konerko. Pauly was already on record as saying he was leaning towards signing with Anaheim, but it was the trade for Thome that brought him back.

 

 

Ya.. and I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell ya...

[hammerhead johnson]

Most baseball historians would agree that Ted Williams is the greatest hitter of all time. When he made it to the World Series in 1946, he hit .200 with only 1 RBI in 30 plate appearances.

 

My point? Nobody is above having a lousy series, not even the great Ted Williams. This should go without saying.

 

And before you tell me that Frank had more than one lousy series, check the 1993 stats. Frank hit .351 with an 1.131 OPS in 27 plate appearances. That ain't too shabby.

Edited October 4, 2006 by hammerhead johnson

[SoxAce]

Hell even in that 0-9 series he had in 2000, he had a 4/0 BB:K ratio. Frank just had some bad luck, plus getting under some pitches. It's not like he was striking out in every apperence he made. The M's staff wasn't stupid, they wanted no part of him. Pitching around him to let someone else beat him is a smart move.

[Soxbadger]

SS2k,

 

I think Konerko would have come back if Thomas came back. I think when Konerko said Thome made the difference he meant it as, "We lost Big Frank, I was not going to come back to the Sox unless there was a player to protect me."

 

 

Rock,

 

The AL central may be better pitching wise. But Frank Thomas put up almost exactly the same stats against the AL Central as Thome. Therefore it is irrelevant, because Thomas clearly was able to hit good pitching this year. Not to mention you still have not addressed the fact Thome hit in a hitters park where as Thomas hit in a pitchers park.

 

As for Gio and Rowand being garbage, I am not saying that they would have had an impact on the Sox. I am saying that we could have used them to trade.

 

The Konerko thing is entirely speculation, and in my opinion is grasping for straws.

 

I stand by my statement:

 

If the Sox knew that Thome and Thomas would put up the stats they did, the Sox would never have traded for Thome and would have done something different.

 

The Sox took a risk based on the fact they thought Frank would be injured and unable to play.

 

Im not saying it was a bad decision, just that in hindsight it is very hard for me to sit here and say the Sox made the better decisions.

[witesoxfan]

Hell even in that 0-9 series he had in 2000, he had a 4/0 BB:K ratio. Frank just had some bad luck, plus getting under some pitches. It's not like he was striking out in every apperence he made. The M's staff wasn't stupid, they wanted no part of him. Pitching around him to let someone else beat him is a smart move.

 

Afterall, he was the clean MVP

[SoxAce]

Question If Frank's a HOF from the Poll Question

 

Stuff like this and what those writers say about him kills me. The thing most said about Frank is how much of a bad guy he is and a cancer and such, most saying you don't have to be a good person to be in the HOF (Cobb, Matthews, etc..) Frank Thomas is NOT a bad/horrible person like how the media interprets him to be. IMO, that would probably mess up Frank the most is how his image is portrayed.

Edited October 4, 2006 by SoxAce

[santo=dorf]

Frank would not have signed an offer with the Sox if it was the same as what the A's were offering. He was complaining about guaranteed money last offseason.

 

When the Sox closed the door on Thomas, he really only had one place to go.

[Harry Chappas]

This whole argument is stupid in the fact that Thomas was hurt until around the All-Star break and was a huge gamble. Anyone that thought last offseason that Thomas was going to be back healthy is lying. The A's could afford to gamble on this and it worked out great for them. The White Sox took a less risky gamble on Dye two years ago and look how that panned out.

 

Thome is also 3 years younger than Thomas so he can produce for a few more years.

 

This argument will be proven when teams come knocking to sign Thomas in the off season. My bet...he is back in the AL Central. Unless Oakland has a cheap option on him. On any given day there is a better than average chance he will get hurt.

[Soxbadger]

The whole argument is if the Sox knew Thomas would do this well would they have traded for Thome.

 

No one is arguing that Thomas did not pose a serious injury risk in the offseason.

 

Not to mention Thomas was not hurt until the All-Star break, he played every single month of the season.

 

He just did not play that well before May, but then again, he has always been a slow starter.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Once again, nobody is hating on Frank, its pretty lame to drop in the middle of a thread and have nothing of substance to add other than being a cheerleader.

 

WTF you talkin' about? I'm one of the biggest Franks fans around. I've gotten into plenty of arguments with those who try to degrade Frank. I'm not gonna get into a pissing match everytime (and it's pathetic that it happens so often at a damn Sox message board) somebody wants to mimimize what he's done this year.

 

The AL central has the best pitching in the major leagues, bar none. It is a better division that the AL west. Odds are its harder to produce offensively in such a pitching rich division, thats all. It may not have been the case, but the odds are in favor of that happening.

 

That's pathetic. So I guess Pujols, Ortiz, Beltran, ect., wouldn't put up the same numbers they did if they were in the AL Central. Please. Frank is great. He's been blitzing elite pitching for years.

Edited October 5, 2006 by Jordan4life_2006

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(greg775 @ Oct 3, 2006 -> 02:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If Frank Thomas keeps this up all postseason, he goes into the Hall

as a member of the A's.

 

So sad he's still not a White Sox.

I love Thome, but Frank is in the postseason; Jimmy is not.

KW's biggest blunder ever.

[The Critic]

Awesome!