Have the Sox just gotten fat and lazy?

[fathom]

:headshake

 

How many times are we going to see this exact same post on this board? Can we throw Aarow into the starting pitching rotation? How about the bullpen? No? End.of.story

 

Thanks...you said it a lot more politely than I would have. It's amazing we won the World Series last year with Michael Jordan/Babe Ruth slumping.

[Kalapse]

I'm as big an Aaron Rowand fan as there is on this board yet even I can admit that this team is not in dire need of his services. This team has some serious pitching problems right now and Rowand would not do anything to help us in that department.

 

All the extreme love that Rowand is getting is actually taking away from what he actually did last year.

 

He will not be comming back anytime soon so constantly bringing up his name is incredibly pointless.

[Queen Prawn]

When I got to the park today and saw that the "Sunday" lineup was in full force, I wanted to strangle Oz. Yeah, yeah they need a day off occasionally (um, they have one tomorrow), but considering how crappy our pitching has been all-around, we need as many bats in the lineup as we can get.

 

The only one that played like he wanted to be out there was Ozuna. I know he missed the one catch he dived on (still trying to figure out if BA wasn't paying attention or if Ozuna was supposed to be backing up the play with BA going for the catch - one of the two screwed up big on that).

 

Maybe it is just a mid-season slump that most, if not all teams go through, but I could accept losing if it looked like they were at least trying out there.

[bmags]

Well, Ozzie had the Sunday lineup in full force today...What do you expect?

 

I'm actually impressed that we were able to score 2 runs.

 

Basically, Ozzie put MB in a position where he had to pitch a perfect game to win...And the Rangers can swing the bats a bit, in case you hadn't noticed.

 

this means you think with our regular lineup we could've scored 11 runs. MB sucked.

[BigSqwert]

When I got to the park today and saw that the "Sunday" lineup was in full force, I wanted to strangle Oz.

The lineup we saw today was because Ozzie wanted his right-handed hitters to bat against the lefty. For some reason he thinks that gives us our best chance at success even though lefties hit over .300 against Rheinecker (granted a small sample size).

[Queen Prawn]

The lineup we saw today was because Ozzie wanted his right-handed hitters to bat against the lefty. For some reason he thinks that gives us our best chance at success even though lefties hit over .300 against Rheinecker (granted a small sample size).

 

Likely that more than the day off thing, I agree. I wonder when Oz will realize that it isn't working as well as it does on paper?

[BigSqwert]

Likely that more than the day off thing, I agree. I wonder when Oz will realize that it isn't working as well as it does on paper?

He does the same thing against other lefty pitchers. Lefties hit Johan Santana much better yet Ozzie does the stacked righty lineup against him too.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

I'm starting to wonder if it is partly Thome's fault, even indirectly for a few reasons. First, it meant the loss of Rowand who was pretty fiery, in addition to being a centerfielder who could hit and play defense properly. Second, while our offense has certainly stepped up a notch as a result, I wonder if this hasn't affected the mindset of the team. Like others have said, we're not the hungry, scrappy team we were last year and it seems like we're willing to make some mistakes in the field and pitching because the team seems to think they can score the runs to make it up.

 

 

There is some validity to your point.

 

The Sox traded the poster boy for "Grinder Baseball" the prototypical grinder if you will, for the prototypical slugger.

 

That prototypical slugger took the place of another "grind it out" type of guy at DH.

 

I'm not knocking any of the Sox offseason moves. They are all great moves on paper.

 

But sometimes what's on paper doesn't necessarily translate on the field.

 

I'm still expecting the Sox to gel and wind up even better than last year. But I'm not shocked that so far it isn't happening. You lose a lot of edge and intensity when you take away an Aaron Rowand and a Carl Everett from any lineup.

 

Oh yeah.....it would help if the pitchers would pitch like last year too.

 

He does the same thing against other lefty pitchers. Lefties hit Johan Santana much better yet Ozzie does the stacked righty lineup against him too.

 

 

Yep. That puzzles/bothers me too.

[Kalapse]

The lineup we saw today was because Ozzie wanted his right-handed hitters to bat against the lefty. For some reason he thinks that gives us our best chance at success even though lefties hit over .300 against Rheinecker (granted a small sample size).

4 for 13 is beyond a small sample size.

 

He got beat up in his first outing against the D-Rays and allowed a hit to Raul Ibanez those are the 4 hits he allowed to lefties this year. Hardly worth mentioning.

[BigSqwert]

Yep. That puzzles/bothers me too.

For some reason he doesn't use that same logic when the opponent is batting (See BMAC vs Catalanato and Politte vs Chavez).

[Kalapse]

There is some validity to your point.

 

The Sox traded the poster boy for "Grinder Baseball" the prototypical grinder if you will, for the prototypical slugger.

 

That prototypical slugger took the place of another "grind it out" type of guy at DH.

 

I'm not knocking any of the Sox offseason moves. They are all great moves on paper.

 

But sometimes what's on paper doesn't necessarily translate on the field.

 

I'm still expecting the Sox to gel and wind up even better than last year. But I'm not shocked that so far it isn't happening. You lose a lot of edge and intensity when you take away an Aaron Rowand and a Carl Everett from any lineup.

It took until your final point to really get to why the Sox have underperformed this year, it has nothing to do with the absence of Rowand or Everett, it is the lack of consistent pitching out of both the starters and the pen. If you replace Thome with Everett and Mack/BA with Rowand but still get s***ty pitching, there's probably a good chance this team is worse off than 2.5 games out of first.

[BigSqwert]

4 for 13 is beyond a small sample size.

 

He got beat up in his first outing against the D-Rays and allowed a hit to Raul Ibanez those are the 4 hits he allowed to lefties this year. Hardly worth mentioning.

I'll give you that but we haven't been world beaters vs lefty pitchers this year. Maybe the stacked righty lineup isn't the way to go?

[Balta1701]

There is some validity to your point.

 

The Sox traded the poster boy for "Grinder Baseball" the prototypical grinder if you will, for the prototypical slugger.

 

That prototypical slugger took the place of another "grind it out" type of guy at DH.

 

I'm not knocking any of the Sox offseason moves. They are all great moves on paper.

 

But sometimes what's on paper doesn't necessarily translate on the field.

 

I'm still expecting the Sox to gel and wind up even better than last year. But I'm not shocked that so far it isn't happening. You lose a lot of edge and intensity when you take away an Aaron Rowand and a Carl Everett from any lineup.

See, that would make sense to me if they were trading for a Jason Giambi, or an Alex Rodriguez, Tetrahydrogestrinone, etc. Guys who are poster boys for being selfish players, guys who don't work with their teammates, guys who get things naturally/chemically, etc. But Jim Thome has never struck me as one of those guys. He's worked as hard as anyone on this team. He runs harder on ground balls than anyone else on the team. He hits the ball a long way, but he sure as all hell grinds as hard as he can. He grinds a lot harder than Everett, that's for sure.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

It took until your final point to really get to why the Sox have underperformed this year, it has nothing to do with the absence of Rowand or Everett, it is the lack of consistent pitching out of both the starters and the pen. If you replace Thome with Everett and Mack/BA with Rowand but still get s***ty pitching, there's probably a good chance this team is worse off than 2.5 games out of first.

The absence of Rowand/Everett may not have as much to do with the win/loss record, but my main point is that it has very much to do with the style of play and the intensity.

 

One example is last year, the Sox were always scratching for runs. If Pods got on base, the main focus was get him over, then get him in. This year, especially when Thome is hot, it seems the Sox are reluctant to give up an out move the runner and leave first base open for Thome for fear the opponent may just walk Thome. That's just one example.

[Kalapse]

The absence of Rowand/Everett may not have as much to do with the win/loss record, but my main point is that it has very much to do with the style of play and the intensity.

 

One example is last year, the Sox were always scratching for runs. If Pods got on base, the main focus was get him over, then get him in. This year, especially when Thome is hot, it seems the Sox are reluctant to give up an out move the runner and leave first base open for Thome for fear the opponent may just walk Thome. That's just one example.

They were mainly scratching for runs last year because the offense sucks, when you have a below average offense you tend to have to give up more outs simply to get 1 run at a time. When you have 2 guys in your lineup with an OPS over 1.000 like the Sox do right now, you don't have to play as much small ball. What you're saying is a negative is actually a positive.

[Wedge]

The absence of Rowand/Everett may not have as much to do with the win/loss record, but my main point is that it has very much to do with the style of play and the intensity.

 

One example is last year, the Sox were always scratching for runs. If Pods got on base, the main focus was get him over, then get him in. This year, especially when Thome is hot, it seems the Sox are reluctant to give up an out move the runner and leave first base open for Thome for fear the opponent may just walk Thome. That's just one example.

 

This is exactly my point. However, I do agree with the notion that was stated elsewhere that none of this would be an issue if our pitching staff, particularly the bullpen, was near its performance from last season.

[WCSox]

This team is not talented enough to just show up and win.

 

DING, DING, DING! We have a winner!

 

Basically, Ozzie put MB in a position where he had to pitch a perfect game to win...And the Rangers can swing the bats a bit, in case you hadn't noticed.

 

Um, so it was Ozzie's fault that Buehrle gave up those 6 doubles (or whatever the number was), even with Anderson in CF? :rolly

 

Mark definitely got some bad breaks, but he also left a ton of pitches up over the plate today. He deserves a sizeable portion of the blame.

[fathom]

With the way that Buehrle pitches, we need our best defense on the left side of the field. Against a lineup stacked with righties, there's going to be a lot of hits towards the left side of the infield. It's the same reason why you need your best infield in the game when Garland is pitching.

[Balta1701]

With the way that Buehrle pitches, we need our best defense on the left side of the field. Against a lineup stacked with righties, there's going to be a lot of hits towards the left side of the infield. It's the same reason why you need your best infield in the game when Garland is pitching.

Trouble was, we had our best defense today on the left side of the infield, and I can think of at least 3 balls that wound up in the outfield after just barely getting past Crede and Uribe, 2 of the doubles and a hit past Uribe. Gload had one skip past him real fast also IIRC. 2 of the other doubles were just out of Pablo's diving range, so that hurt our left side defense also.

 

We got really really unlucky on where those doubles wound up today...they were all about a foot from someone's glove.

[BigSqwert]

Trouble was, we had our best defense today on the left side of the infield

I think he meant outfield as well.

[fathom]

Trouble was, we had our best defense today on the left side of the infield, and I can think of at least 3 balls that wound up in the outfield after just barely getting past Crede and Uribe, 2 of the doubles and a hit past Uribe. Gload had one skip past him real fast also IIRC. 2 of the other doubles were just out of Pablo's diving range, so that hurt our left side defense also.

 

We got really really unlucky on where those doubles wound up today...they were all about a foot from someone's glove.

 

A big play in the game was Crede's inability to knock down Tex's double down the line, which ended up being the go-ahead run. Crede's been great on those plays all year, and that ball just trickled underneath him.

[WCSox]

Trouble was, we had our best defense today on the left side of the infield, and I can think of at least 3 balls that wound up in the outfield after just barely getting past Crede and Uribe, 2 of the doubles and a hit past Uribe. Gload had one skip past him real fast also IIRC. 2 of the other doubles were just out of Pablo's diving range, so that hurt our left side defense also.

 

We got really really unlucky on where those doubles wound up today...they were all about a foot from someone's glove.

 

IIRC, a couple of those were smoked. Unlucky to a degree, but it's not like Mark was sawing off righties with his cutter and inducing weakly-hit, broken-bat dribblers and pop-ups all afternoon.

[winninguglyin83]

if we beat the Tigers two outta three, we can chill on this thread.

 

until we lose two outta three to the Tribe.

[WinningUgly85]

This team has lost the edge it had last season. They don't have that fire or chip on their shoulder that they played with last year. I guess thats what happens when you finally win the whole thing. This team is not talented enough to just show up and win. They have to do all the little things, the hustle plays, like they did all last season. I can accept losing when the team at least competes. It's time for somebody on this team to stand up and let it be known this isn't acceptable.

I will not be at all shocked if the Tigers come in this week and sweep. They are a hungry ballclub, much like the 2005 Sox. They will make this series out to be a very big deal. The White Sox better get their collective heads out of their behinds and do the same.

 

I don't think it has to do with the lack of motivation. I will agree they don't have a chip on their shoulder, and the media hasn't been very negative recently all put aside Jay Moronotti but I don't see how that would be preventing them from winning games. It's our pitching and failer to get the bat on the ball. I mean alot of our pitchers are not putting the ball where they were most effective and alot of are hitters are swinging at bad pitches and taking what they can hit. Were not excuting on either ends of the game not like last season. Part of it is that everyone is gunning for us right now cause we are the champs. They are going to try to beat us at all odds to have some sort of glory. But I have faith that the sox will come around. "Don't Stop Believin'" Once they get hot they will be unstoppable.

[vandy125]

I keep seeing people talking about the team with Thome vs. Rowand. IIRC, wasn't Thome a big reason why Konerko decided to come back this season? Any mention of having Rowand on the team instead of Thome should actually be Rowand instead of Thome and Konerko. How does that lineup look then with how our pitching has been doing?

Edited June 4, 2006 by vandy125