Reactions to Top 50 Prospects

[Bullard]

Hey there everybody I, along with some of my teammates, have some questions and concerns about the recent list of prospects in our organization that was posted to sox net. Some of the guys, such as West, Cotts and myself wonder how and on what basis you ranked us. I assume that since you never see us play that you are going strictly by numbers. Those assumptions that you make about West are far from true. I mean, when was the last time you saw him pitch anyway? You cant base everything solely on numbers because for those who actually know anything about the minor leagues and development know that more than just numbers are used to judge a player. For you to write those things about Westy is just plain ignorant. He actually has pitched better than the numbers suggest. Strikeouts for one are over rated and judge absolutely nothing, and his ERA has been plagued by some weak ass runs caused by plays that could have been errors. Lastly you must remember that the season is 5 months long and we havent even played half of it yet. So dont judge us based on 2 months of numbers, actually dont judge us period.

 

If you think that you have all the answers then I urge you to travel to all of our affiliates and inflict all your knowledge of the game upon us to make us as good as you think we should be. I mean with all your baseball experience you guys should be coaches in our orgainzation and help us to the perfect pitchers that you feel is necesarry to pitch at the Big LEague level.

 

Think before you speak. Westy is on the freakin 40 man so obvioulsly he is doing something right. We're out.

 

West, Bull, Cotts

[southsider2k5]

Hey there everybody I, along with some of my teammates, have some questions and concerns about the recent list of prospects in our organization that was posted to sox net.  Some of the guys, such as West, Cotts and myself wonder how and on what basis you ranked us.  I assume that since you never see us play that you are going strictly by numbers.  Those assumptions that you make about West are far from true.  I mean, when was the last time you saw him pitch anyway?  You cant base everything solely on numbers because for those who actually know anything about the minor leagues and development know that more than just numbers are used to judge a player.  For you to write those things about Westy is just plain ignorant.  He actually has pitched better than the numbers suggest.  Strikeouts for one are over rated and judge absolutely nothing, and his ERA has been plagued by some weak ass runs caused by plays that could have been errors.  Lastly you must remember that the season is 5 months long and we havent even played half of it yet.  So dont judge us based on 2 months of numbers, actually dont judge us period. 

 

If you think that you have all the answers then I urge you to travel to all of our affiliates and inflict all your knowledge of the game upon us to make us as good as you think we should be.  I mean with all your baseball experience you guys should be coaches in our orgainzation and help us to the perfect pitchers that you feel is necesarry to pitch at the Big LEague level.

 

Think before you speak.  Westy is on the freakin 40 man so obvioulsly he is doing something right. We're out.

 

West, Bull, Cotts

Great post. I am a big fan of a blend of watching the games and knowledge of stats. For people who critize other players they have never seen on the basis of their numbers this is a great post to read, repeatedly

 

You go Jim!

[KipWellsFan]

Hey guys, I respect the fact that you are sticking up for your teammates that's great. But I'm sure the author of that list was just trying to give us fans a decent idea of the prospects since most of us can't reallly get any news about you and others.

 

You are very right in saying stats sometimes mean nothing.

 

Thanks a bundle for the info, and I hope Cotts gets off the DL soon.

[southsider2k5]

Hey guys, I respect the fact that you are sticking up for your teammates that's great.  But I'm sure the author of that list was just trying to give us fans a decent idea of the prospects since most of us can't reallly get any news about you and. 

 

You are very right in saying stats sometimes mean nothing.

 

Thanks a bundle for the info, and I hope Cotts gets off the DL soon.

I don't believe (and I could be wrong here) that Bullard is referring to the ACTUAL list of prospects, but some of the snide comments that people made about some of the players and rankings.

[witesoxfan]

Hey there everybody I, along with some of my teammates, have some questions and concerns about the recent list of prospects in our organization that was posted to sox net.  Some of the guys, such as West, Cotts and myself wonder how and on what basis you ranked us.  I assume that since you never see us play that you are going strictly by numbers.  Those assumptions that you make about West are far from true.  I mean, when was the last time you saw him pitch anyway?  You cant base everything solely on numbers because for those who actually know anything about the minor leagues and development know that more than just numbers are used to judge a player.  For you to write those things about Westy is just plain ignorant.  He actually has pitched better than the numbers suggest.  Strikeouts for one are over rated and judge absolutely nothing, and his ERA has been plagued by some weak ass runs caused by plays that could have been errors.  Lastly you must remember that the season is 5 months long and we havent even played half of it yet.  So dont judge us based on 2 months of numbers, actually dont judge us period. 

 

If you think that you have all the answers then I urge you to travel to all of our affiliates and inflict all your knowledge of the game upon us to make us as good as you think we should be.  I mean with all your baseball experience you guys should be coaches in our orgainzation and help us to the perfect pitchers that you feel is necesarry to pitch at the Big LEague level.

 

Think before you speak.  Westy is on the freakin 40 man so obvioulsly he is doing something right. We're out.

 

West, Bull, Cotts

Jim, that's a great post, and I'm sure the mods will thank you for this. They encourage constructive criticism such as this, and hopefully will consider what you have said from now on.

 

I wish everyone the best...I hope all you guys get up here and see some success.

[Soxfest]

Time will tell who is right , who is wrong. I wish you guys ALL success but history speaks otherwise

[Chisoxfn]

First off thanks for the comments.

 

You the players are the ones who know the most about yourselves so what we did was only try to describe things the way we see them. We had a lot of arguments when we came up on the list. Some people wanted some guys higher, others wanted them lower. Overall we tried our best to put things together and then divided reports up amongst a few people.

 

Personally I think we were probably a bit hard on West, but its mainly because he's got such dynamite stuff. Speaking for myself, I Think he has a great shot at making the Sox. I think like everyone, people have things they need to work on. Most noteable I think every pitcher can always work on control, etc. Thats just my two cents from my playing days and watching (I'm far from an expert and no I wasn't good, lol).

 

Let me also say I never ever ever think I could play like you guys do. To make it to the level you all are at is downright impressive, and more importantly your all striving to make the majors, a VERY impressive feat, and for that I have the upmost respect for each and every one of you.

 

I also agree with you Jim that numbers can be very decieving. For example if you look at some of Buehrles outings you would think he was hammered, while in fact there were a few games where the defense was atrocious or he just gave up a ton of "duck-snorts".

 

Anyway, as always I look forward to catching a few games this summer and trying to pick up on more things. Were always striving to make our articles better, so your feedback will definately be taken into account. Were always striving to do better and I wish you all the best of luck.

[BrandoFan]

I am only speaking for myself here and my views certainly do not represent Soxnet/Soxtalk....

 

Having said that, how fair and intellectually honest can you be when you say things like "there is more to game than stats" or "a pitcher A gave up so many soft runs that could have been unearned" or especially the usual "if you think you're so smart, why don't you come and tell us how to do it right, huh"? Sounds suspiciously like an actor who is not happy with a review. Uncalled for...afterall you didn't include any constructive revisions or evidence to the contrary. "Don't judge our performance" doesn't fly with scouts, coaching or management...why should fans be any different?

 

Brian West is having difficulty getting AA hitters out and peripherals are bad relative to top notch prospects and standards acceptable through-out baseball, by most scouts. The burden of proof, so to speak, is on Brian West and anyone else who is not happy with his status- he is the one who should distinguish himself from the pack year in and year out in order to make "cream of the crop" list. Simple as that....Of course you guys are all works in progress, experimenting with mechanics, polishing your pitches and working on psychological aspect of the the game and temporarily the results may suffer, it goes without saying. It's certainly not a death sentence to say someone is not a top prospect just because the results have been mixed at best. History is replete with pitchers coming out of nowhere and having great success in the Majors....

 

Strikeouts are overrated? That may be true....except it's not really. If the walks total isn't too high, Ks show, if anything else, just how dominant one's stuff is and/or how effectively one is able to deceive the hitters. Most prospects are judged by their "stuff" and "ceiling" and K:BB ratio is great to gauge that if used in combination with other statistics....and you KNOW that. So why tripping?

 

The list, as I understand it, was not designed to be scientific or definitive or even in-depth. Rather, it was a tentative , brief overview of minor league depth, complete with statistics. When the 1-20 List comes out it should be more clear if the author hit or missed with his subjective evaluation approcach.

 

There is absolutely no need to overreact here, Mr. Bullard. He did nothing that was out of line in light of the fact that Top 50 Prospects lists are abound in both print and electronic media, and the fact that most of those are not based on anytihng more than occasional perfunctory scouting reports and--GRASP--minor league statistics. Besides, there QUITE A FEW Soxtalk posters actually research souting reports and WATCH minor league games in person and then pool that information together.

[cwsox]

If you think that you have all the answers then I urge you to travel to all of our affiliates and inflict all your knowledge of the game upon us to make us as good as you think we should be.  I mean with all your baseball experience you guys should be coaches in our organization and help us to the perfect pitchers that you feel is necessary to pitch at the Big League level.

 

Think before you speak.

That is one of the funniest - and most true - things ever posted!

[Molto]

criticism accepted jim. as I have always said, we always consider this a work in progress and are always looking at ways to get better.

[MnSoxFan]

We can make any comments we want. I saw West up close in a scrimmage against DBacks and Schilling this spring. Far from dynamite stuff. He looked ok, but did not have anything close to the stuff I had heard he had. Just my honest opinion, and I am a fan and can make that statement (and no, I cannot help coach any prospect, cause I cannot teach that kind of talent).

[Chisoxfn]

Also in regards to my personal way of ranking prospects.

 

I rank them based on stuff, control, and statistics. I fit into the minority because I don't really base things on the "gun". I think having a great fastball is fine and dandy, but people have proven time in and time out that you don't need that fastball to be a stellar pitcher (Fassero, Maddux, Buehrle). Whats more important is that you have good movement, control, and can effectively change speeds.

 

When a guy has a great fastball, it definately makes things easier, cause they have a great margin for error, but in no way does it guarantee sucess. My theory is if a pitcher can control his stuff, and has a good mindset of how to pitch (I think a lot of that comes from experience and simply understanding the game), then they have every shot to be successful.

 

Of course a good way of evaluating how they are doing is based on stats where you can look at walks, strikeouts, how many hits they give up, etc. Still, stats don't tell you how hard he was hit, how the defense played, so there are definately flaws in only grading off of states, especially if its based on a very short span of stats. If you look at stats I think its best to look at a much larger picture, so you can see the progression of a pitcher (has their control improved, etc).

 

Also, like Brando said, I'm sure some of you could be working on a new pitch and trying to hone that, which could lead to a few more hits a game, etc, simply because your experimenting and the time to experiment and add pitches is usually before you reach the majors, cause I'm guessing, its way harder to experiment and add during the major league season. That you would have to do during offseason and spring training.

 

Thats just me speaking on my method on judging a prospect. The other people who pitched in also have their ways and we tried our best to mesh everything together. I thought one of the benefits are that some base things harder on one thing then another, so you get a varying perspective.

 

Like I said earlier, we will work even harder on our next list (Midseason List) and try to explain more.

[cwsox]

soxtalk.com is great because it sees itself as a work in progress -

it is great because we have great founders and good posters -

and I think its fantastic that players felt comfortable enough to post their thoughts -

that makes the conversation even better -

 

and I like these 3 players now more than ever! Its what we want - that 2000 spirit - players seeing themselves as one team and covering each others back -

[Soxfest]

Also in regards to my personal way of ranking prospects.

 

I rank them based on stuff, control, and statistics.  I fit into the minority because I don't really base things on the "gun".  I think having a great fastball is fine and dandy, but people have proven time in and time out that you don't need that fastball to be a stellar pitcher (Fassero, Maddux, Buehrle).  Whats more important is that you have good movement, control, and can effectively change speeds.

 

When a guy has a great fastball, it definately makes things easier, cause they have a great margin for error, but in no way does it guarantee sucess.  My theory is if a pitcher can control his stuff, and has a good mindset of how to pitch (I think a lot of that comes from experience and simply understanding the game), then they have every shot to be successful. 

 

Of course a good way of evaluating how they are doing is based on stats where you can look at walks, strikeouts, how many hits they give up, etc. Still, stats don't tell you how hard he was hit, how the defense played, so there are definately flaws in only grading off of states, especially if its based on a very short span of stats.  If you look at stats I think its best to look at a much larger picture, so you can see the progression of a pitcher (has their control improved, etc). 

 

Also, like Brando said, I'm sure some of you could be working on a new pitch and trying to hone that, which could lead to a few more hits a game, etc, simply because your experimenting and the time to experiment and add pitches is usually before you reach the majors, cause I'm guessing, its way harder to experiment and add during the major league season.  That you would have to do during offseason and spring training.

 

Thats just me speaking on my method on judging a prospect.  The other people who pitched in also have their ways and we tried our best to mesh everything together.  I thought one of the benefits are that some base things harder on one thing then another, so you get a varying perspective.

 

Like I said earlier, we will work even harder on our next list (Midseason List) and try to explain more.

I enjoyed the list and hope it continues, positives and negatives

you owe no one an apology

[BrandoFan]

I am sorry but I don't take "don't judge me, you don't know me" attacks lightly. Especially when they are not accompanied by ANY sort of proof, evidence or even simplest of constructive arguementation whatsoever.

 

I rank them based on stuff, control, and statistics. I fit into the minority because I don't really base things on the "gun". I think having a great fastball is fine and dandy, but people have proven time in and time out that you don't need that fastball to be a stellar pitcher (Fassero, Maddux, Buehrle). Whats more important is that you have good movement, control, and can effectively change speeds.

 

Of course, but the performance matters too. What kind of a message would you be sending to Cotts, Pacheco, Wing or Yofu if they weren't ranked highter than Ulacia and Malone and Kirkland? If success in the minors most of the time doesn't translate well into success in the Majors...why should LACK of success in the minors, lousy peripherals and mediocre stuff be something to be ecstatic about? Just because players are "learning" or "experimenting"? Mark Prior was doing all of that as well as getting hitters out, it's not too much to ask.

 

Many Soxtalkers go to Birmingham/W-S/Charlotte/Spring Training games, read scouting reports and generally know a little thing or two about history and essence of the game. Do they also need to become coaches/instructors in order to have an informed opinion? I don't think so. Like I said, the analysis was very reasonable if a bit on the perfunctory side. It never claimed to have a full scoop and in-depth breakdown....I am sure mistakes were made and a lot fo people on the List will suprise (and more will isappoint) us in the future.

 

I am happy Chisoxfn, Cerbano, Molto and the rest are not apologetic for their beliefs. When Brian and Jim blow away the AAA/AA competition, then, I am sure, they will be none too happy to put them in the top 5 or 10. Until then, tough luck.

[MnSoxFan]

Good post, well said.

[BrandoFan]

Good post, well said.

Thanks, I thought because of all the stupid typos noone would understand what I meant. I edited it just now.

[Bullard]

Westy, Cotts and myself were not commenting on where we were in terms of the list. None of care if we were #40 or # 20. What bothered us was the uneccesary attack on Westy and his abilities. We werent trying to tell Jason and the others that we should be ranked higher or what not. We are actually honored in one sense that we were included on the list but at the same time it was hard to read a prospect report that was an attack on West. He is much better than you give him credit for. Actually everybody on this team is better than give us credit for. We understand that you all have a right to your opinion, as do we, but I think unless you have covered all corners of a persons career you dont really have the right to judge him. You guys who post on here regularly know that I(bull) enjoy fan comments and reactions but my teammates who just saw this site for the first time today took it a little hard. More than just the three of us who are named have read this stuff and everyone is in basic agreement of the thoughts portrayed on this post.

 

I love how you guys are so into our organization and how you research stuff but I just ask that when you criticize a guy keep it minimal and general because all of us, good or bad numbers, all have positive and negative attributes that we bring to Bham and that is why we are ultimately here to improve on the negs and keep demonstrating the pos.

 

PS Brandoman : Dont take offense at us for posting our thoughts and quit with your rambling and big words and get to your points.

 

JB, BW, NC etc.

[BrandoFan]

PS Brandoman : Dont take offense at us for posting our thoughts and quit with your rambling and big words and get to your points

 

Fo shizzle. Billiard.

[rafacosta]

PS Brandoman : Dont take offense at us for posting our thoughts and quit with your rambling and big words and get to your points.

I agree with you about this guy. I think he has some serious personals problems.

 

Cool down, BrandoFan!!!

 

Relaxe e vá atrás de uma bucetinha!

[cwsox]

JB, BW, NC etc., post away!

 

I'm loving it!

 

Maybe you guys should do a ranking of the top 50 fans! Go for it! Fair is fair!

[Molto]

please, don't credit me for that list, which I think was done pretty damn good, I didn't contribute to it at all. if I did, it would be a pretty bad list since I have very little knowledge on the minor leagues. we will be visting the minor leagues this season, which is when I'll sharpen my knowledge on the players. until then, I shouldn't be given credit or add my insight to this.

 

credit goes to jason and cerb, who really busted their ass on this and put a s***load of effort in this.

[Molto]

oh god, I think a feature on the top 50 fans would be a hell of a lot harder than 50 prospects. there would be a ton of ties on this board.

[Cerbaho-WG]

Hey there everybody I, along with some of my teammates, have some questions and concerns about the recent list of prospects in our organization that was posted to sox net.  Some of the guys, such as West, Cotts and myself wonder how and on what basis you ranked us.  I assume that since you never see us play that you are going strictly by numbers.  Those assumptions that you make about West are far from true.  I mean, when was the last time you saw him pitch anyway?  You cant base everything solely on numbers because for those who actually know anything about the minor leagues and development know that more than just numbers are used to judge a player.  For you to write those things about Westy is just plain ignorant.  He actually has pitched better than the numbers suggest.  Strikeouts for one are over rated and judge absolutely nothing, and his ERA has been plagued by some weak ass runs caused by plays that could have been errors.  Lastly you must remember that the season is 5 months long and we havent even played half of it yet.  So dont judge us based on 2 months of numbers, actually dont judge us period. 

 

If you think that you have all the answers then I urge you to travel to all of our affiliates and inflict all your knowledge of the game upon us to make us as good as you think we should be.  I mean with all your baseball experience you guys should be coaches in our orgainzation and help us to the perfect pitchers that you feel is necesarry to pitch at the Big LEague level.

 

Think before you speak.  Westy is on the freakin 40 man so obvioulsly he is doing something right. We're out.

 

West, Bull, Cotts

DEAR LORD, PLAYERS READ THIS!!!

 

/me runs to the basement!!!

[LDF]

at first my reaction to bullard comments was that they the players are angry with the rank. now after the second post, i see that they were coming to a defense of a player. i respect that.

 

for my point, i need to see more about our players at all levels. i guess that is what is being define as a die heart fan. yes some posters can be really critical, but that too is part of being a fan, a monday morning QB so to speak.

 

i have defended manuel and jose b/c my opinions differs then some of those. that that is what makes this board and any board exciting. the difference in opinion.

 

for the record. i am a huge fan of west and many others, as i am not a huge fan of some players as well.

 

either way guys, i am sure i am speaking for everyone here. bring us a winner and the best of luck in the minors and your career. can't wait to see you pitch in the majors.